A Couple of Questions....
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
A Couple of Questions....
Hi all. First let me say I have nothing but positive feelings for all who come on here and share experiences, advice, etc. Having said that, I haven't found in reading exactly what I was looking for, which I guess is more practical advice.
My wife is an alcoholic, and we have two daughters. While she has made some vague moves in the past toward getting help, that hasn't happened for awhile. Anyway, it seems the vast majority of writings, be they about al-anon or just in general, are about "finding hope" or "strength" or whatever, for the individual who knows the alcoholic. And that's fine. But am I the only one who isn't particularly interested in this stuff? I mean, I'll be fine. What I'm interested in is:
--Are there established kinds of rehab centers that are considered the best? We're in New York. It doesn't look like our health insurance would cover anything, so where does that leave us? Particularly when my understanding is it's dangerous to detox without medical supervision.
--Are there other approaches that work? Do any of the alcoholism medications (naxeltrone (sp?), etc.) work? Have they undergone trials for safety, effectiveness, etc?
--If the spouse doesn't get help, what are the best approaches if you feel, as I do, that leaving with the kids isn't an option?
Slightly off-topic, one of the things I find interesting in the reading I've done is how elastic this idea of "enabling" can be. Essentially, you can be called an enabler for any response you take to someone's drinking. And since the other most common thing that's said is that alcoholics only stop if they want to, I'm not sure what the point of enabling discussions are anyway. (Again, that doesn't go to the practical advice idea as much, I just think it's interesting.)
Anyway, I'd welcome any or all help. Thanks very much.
My wife is an alcoholic, and we have two daughters. While she has made some vague moves in the past toward getting help, that hasn't happened for awhile. Anyway, it seems the vast majority of writings, be they about al-anon or just in general, are about "finding hope" or "strength" or whatever, for the individual who knows the alcoholic. And that's fine. But am I the only one who isn't particularly interested in this stuff? I mean, I'll be fine. What I'm interested in is:
--Are there established kinds of rehab centers that are considered the best? We're in New York. It doesn't look like our health insurance would cover anything, so where does that leave us? Particularly when my understanding is it's dangerous to detox without medical supervision.
--Are there other approaches that work? Do any of the alcoholism medications (naxeltrone (sp?), etc.) work? Have they undergone trials for safety, effectiveness, etc?
--If the spouse doesn't get help, what are the best approaches if you feel, as I do, that leaving with the kids isn't an option?
Slightly off-topic, one of the things I find interesting in the reading I've done is how elastic this idea of "enabling" can be. Essentially, you can be called an enabler for any response you take to someone's drinking. And since the other most common thing that's said is that alcoholics only stop if they want to, I'm not sure what the point of enabling discussions are anyway. (Again, that doesn't go to the practical advice idea as much, I just think it's interesting.)
Anyway, I'd welcome any or all help. Thanks very much.
Being Me for the first time
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wishek, North Dakota
Posts: 1,160
Kmarko... Hi and welcome to SR .. I dont have alot of information as your requesting . But I can say one thing .. your lookin for a good rehab ? well to thats I would say .. you can have the best in the world but if your wife isnt " willing " to want the recovery it really dont matter . Its up to her to want recovery . and work it ..
AA is IMO one of the best things out there , but thats JMO . and what worked for me . There are many other alternitive programs , Its all pending what that person desires .
Detox , dont run that high on the $$ , after all even if it did, Its worth saving your partners life , Or you can just go to a addiction specilist and he can help with home detox , at least look into that . Home detox can be very dangerous . Well thats all the imput I can add . Not sure if its helpful or not just my few pennys worth of my own experiences . Im sure many will follow thu and add more .. best of luck .. ~ Endzy ~
AA is IMO one of the best things out there , but thats JMO . and what worked for me . There are many other alternitive programs , Its all pending what that person desires .
Detox , dont run that high on the $$ , after all even if it did, Its worth saving your partners life , Or you can just go to a addiction specilist and he can help with home detox , at least look into that . Home detox can be very dangerous . Well thats all the imput I can add . Not sure if its helpful or not just my few pennys worth of my own experiences . Im sure many will follow thu and add more .. best of luck .. ~ Endzy ~
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Many of the posts you find here are about "strength" or "hope" because if people had them, they wouldn't be in such dire straits. Establishing boundaries, and reinforcing them, is very hard, as I'm sure you're finding. In your case, for example, a boundary would be to stop drinking, stop forcing your daughters to grow up in an alcoholic household, and enter a rehabilitation program immediately, or you will take steps to protect yourself and your children through separation.
There is a reason you haven't done that yet, and it's not because you haven't found the perfect rehab center. It's because it's a miserable decision. That's what the "strength" part is all about. It's incredibly hard to take the steps necessary to protect our families and our sanity from alcoholism, because it involves things that are very unpleasant and very confusing.
Couple this with the fact that unless an alcoholic is ready and willing to take responsibility for her own recovery, the chances of success are slim. Is your wife interested in getting better? Is she actively seeking help? Attending AA? Talking with her doctor about detox?
You'll also find that if you ask specific questions, you'll often receive specific answers (if people have experience in the area in which you need help)
Note that while personal experience is fine to share here, medical advice, recommendations for drugs or a certain rehab center, etc. are not fine. We're not doctors and we're not experts in the treatment of alcoholism...we're just people who are going through similar pain who may be able to make some suggestions for resources and things to try.
You seem to be a person interested in absolute facts. Addiction specialists (available through your doctor's office) will be the best resource for these. You may also wish to contact your state's substance abuse resources and talk to people there about your needs and your options: OASAS Recovery-Advocacy Groups
I wish you and your family luck and success in getting through this.
There is a reason you haven't done that yet, and it's not because you haven't found the perfect rehab center. It's because it's a miserable decision. That's what the "strength" part is all about. It's incredibly hard to take the steps necessary to protect our families and our sanity from alcoholism, because it involves things that are very unpleasant and very confusing.
Couple this with the fact that unless an alcoholic is ready and willing to take responsibility for her own recovery, the chances of success are slim. Is your wife interested in getting better? Is she actively seeking help? Attending AA? Talking with her doctor about detox?
You'll also find that if you ask specific questions, you'll often receive specific answers (if people have experience in the area in which you need help)
Note that while personal experience is fine to share here, medical advice, recommendations for drugs or a certain rehab center, etc. are not fine. We're not doctors and we're not experts in the treatment of alcoholism...we're just people who are going through similar pain who may be able to make some suggestions for resources and things to try.
You seem to be a person interested in absolute facts. Addiction specialists (available through your doctor's office) will be the best resource for these. You may also wish to contact your state's substance abuse resources and talk to people there about your needs and your options: OASAS Recovery-Advocacy Groups
I wish you and your family luck and success in getting through this.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by endzoner 
Kmarko... Hi and welcome to SR .. I dont have alot of information as your requesting . But I can say one thing .. your lookin for a good rehab ? well to thats I would say .. you can have the best in the world but if your wife isnt " willing " to want the recovery it really dont matter . Its up to her to want recovery . and work it ..
AA is IMO one of the best things out there , but thats JMO . and what worked for me . There are many other alternitive programs , Its all pending what that person desires .
Detox , dont run that high on the $$ , after all even if it did, Its worth saving your partners life , Or you can just go to a addiction specilist and he can help with home detox , at least look into that . Home detox can be very dangerous . Well thats all the imput I can add . Not sure if its helpful or not just my few pennys worth of my own experiences . Im sure many will follow thu and add more .. best of luck .. ~ Endzy ~
AA is IMO one of the best things out there , but thats JMO . and what worked for me . There are many other alternitive programs , Its all pending what that person desires .
Detox , dont run that high on the $$ , after all even if it did, Its worth saving your partners life , Or you can just go to a addiction specilist and he can help with home detox , at least look into that . Home detox can be very dangerous . Well thats all the imput I can add . Not sure if its helpful or not just my few pennys worth of my own experiences . Im sure many will follow thu and add more .. best of luck .. ~ Endzy ~
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by GiveLove
Note that while personal experience is fine to share here, medical advice, recommendations for drugs or a certain rehab center, etc. are not fine. We're not doctors and we're not experts in the treatment of alcoholism...we're just people who are going through similar pain who may be able to make some suggestions for resources and things to try.
Two points on the medical advice, rehab etc. One, when talking about rehab centers, I guess I didn't mean specific places (although that would be fine) but whether there were certain types of facilities--philosophies they might have, etc., that seem to be successful.
Second, is that a rule of the forum not to discuss these things, because of legal liability? I would think a bunch of first-hand accounts would be extremely useful, anecdotal or otherwise. But if there are legal restrictions, not much to do about that, I suppose.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,059
hello kmarko and welcome-
you can't approach someone's recovery as if it was a to-do list.
you want rehab centers, info, etc. but are you willing to hear that if she doesn't want it, it won't do any good?
if you march her off to whatever you've decided you are going to force her to do, you will probably be back here in six months, a bit more beaten down by this disease.
perhaps you will understand the need for strength and shared experience when you are perhaps forced to separate from her, watch her perhaps kill herself and try to salvage your family.
that's where we are coming from.
if you want info on how to dictate recovery because you still believe you can control another person, you've come to the wrong place.
you can't approach someone's recovery as if it was a to-do list.
you want rehab centers, info, etc. but are you willing to hear that if she doesn't want it, it won't do any good?
if you march her off to whatever you've decided you are going to force her to do, you will probably be back here in six months, a bit more beaten down by this disease.
perhaps you will understand the need for strength and shared experience when you are perhaps forced to separate from her, watch her perhaps kill herself and try to salvage your family.
that's where we are coming from.
if you want info on how to dictate recovery because you still believe you can control another person, you've come to the wrong place.
Retired Pro Drunk
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 901
With respect to certain medications, you could certainly ask those who have tried any to share their experience with them - maybe post over in the alcoholism forum and ask.
As for treatment centers, here's what I know and have experienced myself:
In the US - the most common approach to treatment is known as the Minnesota Model which was developed by the folks at Hazelden. It's a 28 day residential (inpatient) program that starts with medically supervised detox for 1-3 days, give or take depending on the patient.
The program focuses on AA, the Big Book of AA, and the 12 steps. I know too at Hazelden (I was a patient there twice, once for 28 days and once for 5 months) they give everyone a thorough psychological profile and will treat any underlying psychological issues at the same time - either by psychology (talk therapy), psychiatry (medication), or both.
Following a 28 day stay, the assigned counselor will make recommendations for continued care which can include any combination of extended care (another 4 months there), half-way houses, sober living, outpatient treatment, etc.
28 day rehab stays are expensive - figure about $30,000 or about $1,000 per day at many places (including Hazelden). Costs will vary though. I also know that Hazelden has a type of "scholarship" program available for those in need. I suspect other places do as well.
Like I said, the above is sort of the norm - but there are all sorts of different rehab joints with all kinds of different philosophies.
As for treatment centers, here's what I know and have experienced myself:
In the US - the most common approach to treatment is known as the Minnesota Model which was developed by the folks at Hazelden. It's a 28 day residential (inpatient) program that starts with medically supervised detox for 1-3 days, give or take depending on the patient.
The program focuses on AA, the Big Book of AA, and the 12 steps. I know too at Hazelden (I was a patient there twice, once for 28 days and once for 5 months) they give everyone a thorough psychological profile and will treat any underlying psychological issues at the same time - either by psychology (talk therapy), psychiatry (medication), or both.
Following a 28 day stay, the assigned counselor will make recommendations for continued care which can include any combination of extended care (another 4 months there), half-way houses, sober living, outpatient treatment, etc.
28 day rehab stays are expensive - figure about $30,000 or about $1,000 per day at many places (including Hazelden). Costs will vary though. I also know that Hazelden has a type of "scholarship" program available for those in need. I suspect other places do as well.
Like I said, the above is sort of the norm - but there are all sorts of different rehab joints with all kinds of different philosophies.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by naive
hello kmarko and welcome-
you can't approach someone's recovery as if it was a to-do list.
you want rehab centers, info, etc. but are you willing to hear that if she doesn't want it, it won't do any good?
if you march her off to whatever you've decided you are going to force her to do, you will probably be back here in six months, a bit more beaten down by this disease.
perhaps you will understand the need for strength and shared experience when you are perhaps forced to separate from her, watch her perhaps kill herself and try to salvage your family.
that's where we are coming from.
if you want info on how to dictate recovery because you still believe you can control another person, you've come to the wrong place.
you can't approach someone's recovery as if it was a to-do list.
you want rehab centers, info, etc. but are you willing to hear that if she doesn't want it, it won't do any good?
if you march her off to whatever you've decided you are going to force her to do, you will probably be back here in six months, a bit more beaten down by this disease.
perhaps you will understand the need for strength and shared experience when you are perhaps forced to separate from her, watch her perhaps kill herself and try to salvage your family.
that's where we are coming from.
if you want info on how to dictate recovery because you still believe you can control another person, you've come to the wrong place.
I fully understand the "can't make them do anything" issue, and don't think I can force anyone anywhere. (And I'm plenty beaten down, don't worry!) I was trying to be as positive as possible in my initial post about everyone who comes onto a board such as this to share there feelings and experiences. I was just looking for something slightly different.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by justanothrdrunk
With respect to certain medications, you could certainly ask those who have tried any to share their experience with them - maybe post over in the alcoholism forum and ask.
As for treatment centers, here's what I know and have experienced myself:
In the US - the most common approach to treatment is known as the Minnesota Model which was developed by the folks at Hazelden. It's a 28 day residential (inpatient) program that starts with medically supervised detox for 1-3 days, give or take depending on the patient.
The program focuses on AA, the Big Book of AA, and the 12 steps. I know too at Hazelden (I was a patient there twice, once for 28 days and once for 5 months) they give everyone a thorough psychological profile and will treat any underlying psychological issues at the same time - either by psychology (talk therapy), psychiatry (medication), or both.
Following a 28 day stay, the assigned counselor will make recommendations for continued care which can include any combination of extended care (another 4 months there), half-way houses, sober living, outpatient treatment, etc.
28 day rehab stays are expensive - figure about $30,000 or about $1,000 per day at many places (including Hazelden). Costs will vary though. I also know that Hazelden has a type of "scholarship" program available for those in need. I suspect other places do as well.
Like I said, the above is sort of the norm - but there are all sorts of different rehab joints with all kinds of different philosophies.
As for treatment centers, here's what I know and have experienced myself:
In the US - the most common approach to treatment is known as the Minnesota Model which was developed by the folks at Hazelden. It's a 28 day residential (inpatient) program that starts with medically supervised detox for 1-3 days, give or take depending on the patient.
The program focuses on AA, the Big Book of AA, and the 12 steps. I know too at Hazelden (I was a patient there twice, once for 28 days and once for 5 months) they give everyone a thorough psychological profile and will treat any underlying psychological issues at the same time - either by psychology (talk therapy), psychiatry (medication), or both.
Following a 28 day stay, the assigned counselor will make recommendations for continued care which can include any combination of extended care (another 4 months there), half-way houses, sober living, outpatient treatment, etc.
28 day rehab stays are expensive - figure about $30,000 or about $1,000 per day at many places (including Hazelden). Costs will vary though. I also know that Hazelden has a type of "scholarship" program available for those in need. I suspect other places do as well.
Like I said, the above is sort of the norm - but there are all sorts of different rehab joints with all kinds of different philosophies.
I'll post in the other forum re medication, thanks.
Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 1,636
Kmarko: In all honesty, I think perhaps you need to go back and re-read whatever it is that you have been reading here because it appears that you have totally missed the most basic points.
People in Al Anon and in this forum focus on themselves rather than the Alcoholic because Al Anon is a program for Family and Friends of Alcoholics and this Forum is a Forum for Family and Friends of Alcoholics. Alcoholics work on themselves in the Alcoholism forums and we work on ourselves here. I have actually never seen a Forum on Sober Recovery dedicated to Family and Friends working on Alcoholics or to Alcoholics working on Family and Friends. My best guess is that that is because such a forum would be a misleading waste of everyone's time and energy.
In truth, that (focusing on, blaming and trying to change others rather than ourselves) is what I was doing before I found recovery. The reason I decided to try recovery in the first place was because I was forced -- through pain, disappointment, exhaustion, and repeated utter failure -- to realize that, not only was trying to change and control others a waste of my time and energy; but it also tended to make me just as sick and crazy, if not sicker and crazier, than the alcoholic; and it was highly disrespectful of the dignity and free-will of the alcoholic I professed to love and want to help.
So, all of that being said, I, of course, have no more ability to get you into recovery than you have to get your wife into recovery. But, truly, it most likely would be very, helpful for you to go back and re-read what you have read elsewhere on this forum, trying to keep in mind the thought: "I am powerless over my wife and her alcoholism, and when I spend my time and energy trying to control those things, my life becomes unmanageable."
freya
People in Al Anon and in this forum focus on themselves rather than the Alcoholic because Al Anon is a program for Family and Friends of Alcoholics and this Forum is a Forum for Family and Friends of Alcoholics. Alcoholics work on themselves in the Alcoholism forums and we work on ourselves here. I have actually never seen a Forum on Sober Recovery dedicated to Family and Friends working on Alcoholics or to Alcoholics working on Family and Friends. My best guess is that that is because such a forum would be a misleading waste of everyone's time and energy.
In truth, that (focusing on, blaming and trying to change others rather than ourselves) is what I was doing before I found recovery. The reason I decided to try recovery in the first place was because I was forced -- through pain, disappointment, exhaustion, and repeated utter failure -- to realize that, not only was trying to change and control others a waste of my time and energy; but it also tended to make me just as sick and crazy, if not sicker and crazier, than the alcoholic; and it was highly disrespectful of the dignity and free-will of the alcoholic I professed to love and want to help.
So, all of that being said, I, of course, have no more ability to get you into recovery than you have to get your wife into recovery. But, truly, it most likely would be very, helpful for you to go back and re-read what you have read elsewhere on this forum, trying to keep in mind the thought: "I am powerless over my wife and her alcoholism, and when I spend my time and energy trying to control those things, my life becomes unmanageable."
freya
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
Hi kmarko,
I think you're experiencing a little "expectation management" on the part of people who've been through this difficult process, so I hope you will take it all in the spirit in which it's intended (we really are nice LOL)
And my comment on precise answers? I say that because I'm you. I am a really rational person who finds the best comfort and support in logic: cut-and-dried, black-and-white answers. So alcoholism was a terrible surprise for me, because it could not be managed that way. All the data in the world on how programs work, or where to go, or what to take, turned out not to matter at all when dealing with someone who had no willingness to change. I was spinning my wheels, gathering data, and the alcoholics in my life would say, "That's nice" and crack open another bottle of wine...
But I wanted to say that I do understand where you're coming from. I'm not sorry I gathered some information and gave it to the alcoholics in my life...it felt like the right thing to do then and now.
I wish you luck finding a situation that you feel right about for your wife, and which you can afford.
But mostly, I hope that you will see that the impetus for change must come from her, not from some airtight data you are able to gather. And I hope with all my heart she does choose that. For her own sake, for yours, and for your kids' sake. Alcoholism is a dirty, dirty foe, and we all hate it here.
Strength, hope, and good information to you!!
I think you're experiencing a little "expectation management" on the part of people who've been through this difficult process, so I hope you will take it all in the spirit in which it's intended (we really are nice LOL)
And my comment on precise answers? I say that because I'm you. I am a really rational person who finds the best comfort and support in logic: cut-and-dried, black-and-white answers. So alcoholism was a terrible surprise for me, because it could not be managed that way. All the data in the world on how programs work, or where to go, or what to take, turned out not to matter at all when dealing with someone who had no willingness to change. I was spinning my wheels, gathering data, and the alcoholics in my life would say, "That's nice" and crack open another bottle of wine...
But I wanted to say that I do understand where you're coming from. I'm not sorry I gathered some information and gave it to the alcoholics in my life...it felt like the right thing to do then and now.
I wish you luck finding a situation that you feel right about for your wife, and which you can afford.
But mostly, I hope that you will see that the impetus for change must come from her, not from some airtight data you are able to gather. And I hope with all my heart she does choose that. For her own sake, for yours, and for your kids' sake. Alcoholism is a dirty, dirty foe, and we all hate it here.
Strength, hope, and good information to you!!
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by freya
Kmarko: In all honesty, I think perhaps you need to go back and re-read whatever it is that you have been reading here because it appears that you have totally missed the most basic points.
People in Al Anon and in this forum focus on themselves rather than the Alcoholic because Al Anon is a program for Family and Friends of Alcoholics and this Forum is a Forum for Family and Friends of Alcoholics. Alcoholics work on themselves in the Alcoholism forums and we work on ourselves here. I have actually never seen a Forum on Sober Recovery dedicated to Family and Friends working on Alcoholics or to Alcoholics working on Family and Friends. My best guess is that that is because such a forum would be a misleading waste of everyone's time and energy.
In truth, that (focusing on, blaming and trying to change others rather than ourselves) is what I was doing before I found recovery. The reason I decided to try recovery in the first place was because I was forced -- through pain, disappointment, exhaustion, and repeated utter failure -- to realize that, not only was trying to change and control others a waste of my time and energy; but it also tended to make me just as sick and crazy, if not sicker and crazier, than the alcoholic; and it was highly disrespectful of the dignity and free-will of the alcoholic I professed to love and want to help.
So, all of that being said, I, of course, have no more ability to get you into recovery than you have to get your wife into recovery. But, truly, it most likely would be very, helpful for you to go back and re-read what you have read elsewhere on this forum, trying to keep in mind the thought: "I am powerless over my wife and her alcoholism, and when I spend my time and energy trying to control those things, my life becomes unmanageable."
freya
People in Al Anon and in this forum focus on themselves rather than the Alcoholic because Al Anon is a program for Family and Friends of Alcoholics and this Forum is a Forum for Family and Friends of Alcoholics. Alcoholics work on themselves in the Alcoholism forums and we work on ourselves here. I have actually never seen a Forum on Sober Recovery dedicated to Family and Friends working on Alcoholics or to Alcoholics working on Family and Friends. My best guess is that that is because such a forum would be a misleading waste of everyone's time and energy.
In truth, that (focusing on, blaming and trying to change others rather than ourselves) is what I was doing before I found recovery. The reason I decided to try recovery in the first place was because I was forced -- through pain, disappointment, exhaustion, and repeated utter failure -- to realize that, not only was trying to change and control others a waste of my time and energy; but it also tended to make me just as sick and crazy, if not sicker and crazier, than the alcoholic; and it was highly disrespectful of the dignity and free-will of the alcoholic I professed to love and want to help.
So, all of that being said, I, of course, have no more ability to get you into recovery than you have to get your wife into recovery. But, truly, it most likely would be very, helpful for you to go back and re-read what you have read elsewhere on this forum, trying to keep in mind the thought: "I am powerless over my wife and her alcoholism, and when I spend my time and energy trying to control those things, my life becomes unmanageable."
freya
In addition, if by "change and control" you mean "being open to the possibility of helping" an alcoholic is "highly disrespectful to the dignity" of the alcoholic, I find that doubly strange. But again, thank you for posting.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by GiveLove
Hi kmarko,
I think you're experiencing a little "expectation management" on the part of people who've been through this difficult process, so I hope you will take it all in the spirit in which it's intended (we really are nice LOL)
And my comment on precise answers? I say that because I'm you. I am a really rational person who finds the best comfort and support in logic: cut-and-dried, black-and-white answers. So alcoholism was a terrible surprise for me, because it could not be managed that way. All the data in the world on how programs work, or where to go, or what to take, turned out not to matter at all when dealing with someone who had no willingness to change. I was spinning my wheels, gathering data, and the alcoholics in my life would say, "That's nice" and crack open another bottle of wine...
But I wanted to say that I do understand where you're coming from. I'm not sorry I gathered some information and gave it to the alcoholics in my life...it felt like the right thing to do then and now.
I wish you luck finding a situation that you feel right about for your wife, and which you can afford.
But mostly, I hope that you will see that the impetus for change must come from her, not from some airtight data you are able to gather. And I hope with all my heart she does choose that. For her own sake, for yours, and for your kids' sake. Alcoholism is a dirty, dirty foe, and we all hate it here.
Strength, hope, and good information to you!!
I think you're experiencing a little "expectation management" on the part of people who've been through this difficult process, so I hope you will take it all in the spirit in which it's intended (we really are nice LOL)
And my comment on precise answers? I say that because I'm you. I am a really rational person who finds the best comfort and support in logic: cut-and-dried, black-and-white answers. So alcoholism was a terrible surprise for me, because it could not be managed that way. All the data in the world on how programs work, or where to go, or what to take, turned out not to matter at all when dealing with someone who had no willingness to change. I was spinning my wheels, gathering data, and the alcoholics in my life would say, "That's nice" and crack open another bottle of wine...
But I wanted to say that I do understand where you're coming from. I'm not sorry I gathered some information and gave it to the alcoholics in my life...it felt like the right thing to do then and now.
I wish you luck finding a situation that you feel right about for your wife, and which you can afford.
But mostly, I hope that you will see that the impetus for change must come from her, not from some airtight data you are able to gather. And I hope with all my heart she does choose that. For her own sake, for yours, and for your kids' sake. Alcoholism is a dirty, dirty foe, and we all hate it here.
Strength, hope, and good information to you!!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by Kmarko
--If the spouse doesn't get help, what are the best approaches if you feel, as I do, that leaving with the kids isn't an option?
2) Go to Alanon or individual counseling, or both.
3) Get counseling for the kids, too.
4) Admit that leaving is an option, even if it is one you choose not to excercise.
How's that for practical advice? LOL
L
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
Just my two cents -
Helping when asked is altruistic.
Helping when not asked is self-seeking.
As an adult, my alcoholic husband has the capability (although it appears he doesn't often, I know he does because all adults do!) to ask for help.
He hasn't and, in fact, doesn't want help. He doesn't want to change. He doesn't want anything different.
I have to respect that (even though he is:
- hurting himself
- hurting me
- pushing me away
etc. etc. in my opinion)
I have recovery info ready (if he ever comes to me for it), but that's it.
I am learning about recovery and addiction, but its for me to understand the process, not to change him with it.
From what I've learned, people recover when THEY are ready to and not a moment before.
Good luck!
Wife
Helping when asked is altruistic.
Helping when not asked is self-seeking.
As an adult, my alcoholic husband has the capability (although it appears he doesn't often, I know he does because all adults do!) to ask for help.
He hasn't and, in fact, doesn't want help. He doesn't want to change. He doesn't want anything different.
I have to respect that (even though he is:
- hurting himself
- hurting me
- pushing me away
etc. etc. in my opinion)
I have recovery info ready (if he ever comes to me for it), but that's it.
I am learning about recovery and addiction, but its for me to understand the process, not to change him with it.
From what I've learned, people recover when THEY are ready to and not a moment before.
Good luck!
Wife
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 594
I just wanted to say that I think it's pretty great that kmarko is here. They did a study once about why the self-help book industry is dominated by female consumers. It was found that men generally feel that they can and should solve their own problems. Which means that so many men are isolated and alone when they sort out and suffer through some of the most difficult times in there lives.
I'm glad kmarko took a leap of faith and jumped in for some support.
I'm glad kmarko took a leap of faith and jumped in for some support.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 62
Kmarko, I understand exactly where you are. Perhaps our personalities are similar in that knowledge alleviates stress to a certain extent. Whether I am investing money, baking a cake or dealing with my AH I try to read and learn everything I can about the subject at hand. And there is nothing wrong with educating yourself on any topic of interest.
When I discovered how truly sick my AH was the very first thing I did was to get myself educated on every aspect of alcoholism. I wanted to know why he did so many of the things he did. I wanted to know why he didn't just STOP! I wanted to know was he just being an immature piece of s**t or was there a physiological cause for some of what I had witnessed. I wanted to know about treatments and drugs and the effective rate of recovery programs as well as non traditional treatment options. And after much reading and surfing I did learn almost everything I ever wanted to know about this horrible disease. And I did get some answers to my why questions as well as a harsh reality check about how much worse he would become should he not choose treatment.
The key to all of this is what you do with that information and knowledge you are gaining once you finish your study. What the people of this forum are wanting to make sure you understand is that having all that knowledge in no way what so ever will help your wife. It will give you answers and maybe even some comfort in knowing the "why" she has done or continues to do some things but that is ALL it will give you. You can't help her with any of what you learn unless she wants help. That's the most important message there it. Even if you convince her to go inpatient for a 28 day stay and she does not want to get better she will drink the first day she gets out. And that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the way it is with an Alcoholic.
Learn everything you want to learn. Research the meds and treatment program. Gain whatever knowledge you feel you need to have a better grasp on the illness of your spouse. Just do so with a clear understanding that the knowledge you gain will help you and only you.
I wish you the best.
When I discovered how truly sick my AH was the very first thing I did was to get myself educated on every aspect of alcoholism. I wanted to know why he did so many of the things he did. I wanted to know why he didn't just STOP! I wanted to know was he just being an immature piece of s**t or was there a physiological cause for some of what I had witnessed. I wanted to know about treatments and drugs and the effective rate of recovery programs as well as non traditional treatment options. And after much reading and surfing I did learn almost everything I ever wanted to know about this horrible disease. And I did get some answers to my why questions as well as a harsh reality check about how much worse he would become should he not choose treatment.
The key to all of this is what you do with that information and knowledge you are gaining once you finish your study. What the people of this forum are wanting to make sure you understand is that having all that knowledge in no way what so ever will help your wife. It will give you answers and maybe even some comfort in knowing the "why" she has done or continues to do some things but that is ALL it will give you. You can't help her with any of what you learn unless she wants help. That's the most important message there it. Even if you convince her to go inpatient for a 28 day stay and she does not want to get better she will drink the first day she gets out. And that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the way it is with an Alcoholic.
Learn everything you want to learn. Research the meds and treatment program. Gain whatever knowledge you feel you need to have a better grasp on the illness of your spouse. Just do so with a clear understanding that the knowledge you gain will help you and only you.
I wish you the best.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,334
My XAH went through a hospitol detox and to an outpatient 28 local recovery group. He was court mandated. It was a waste of $ and time. He was not ready. I went "all out" in my own recovery in Alanon. He kept using. It didn't work out. He just grew more towards his using friends and away from the family. I had to divorce someone I dearly loved. It took years. The kids (his) raised by his first wife ,their mother,were very effected and have had their own subsance abuse problems. My XAH has lost everything. He is still not ready to find help. I tried but just could not help him and nearly lost myself trying.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southwest
Posts: 1,207
kmarko, you are welcome here and I hope you will stick around. When I told my STBXH that we could reconcile if he would commit to stop drinking and enter a recovery program, he said point blank that he wasn't willing to stop drinking. So there ya go. I had to decide what I could tolerate for myself and my chidlren, and that's where the strength and courage and working on myself and my situation come into play.
I think all of us have tried for a long time to help our alcoholics and we are still struggling to learn that we can only help ourselves - and in so doing, they could benefit from our work on us. That's where we're coming from.
I think all of us have tried for a long time to help our alcoholics and we are still struggling to learn that we can only help ourselves - and in so doing, they could benefit from our work on us. That's where we're coming from.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by LaTeeDa
1) Learn everything you can about boundaries, codependence, enabling, etc.
2) Go to Alanon or individual counseling, or both.
3) Get counseling for the kids, too.
4) Admit that leaving is an option, even if it is one you choose not to excercise.
How's that for practical advice? LOL
L
2) Go to Alanon or individual counseling, or both.
3) Get counseling for the kids, too.
4) Admit that leaving is an option, even if it is one you choose not to excercise.
How's that for practical advice? LOL
L
On 4), I worded that poorly. Of course leaving is an option, but I'm not leaving now, at any rate. Thanks for your input.
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