A Couple of Questions....
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Originally Posted by wifeofadrinker 
Just my two cents -
Helping when asked is altruistic.
Helping when not asked is self-seeking.
As an adult, my alcoholic husband has the capability (although it appears he doesn't often, I know he does because all adults do!) to ask for help.
He hasn't and, in fact, doesn't want help. He doesn't want to change. He doesn't want anything different.
I have to respect that (even though he is:
- hurting himself
- hurting me
- pushing me away
etc. etc. in my opinion)
I have recovery info ready (if he ever comes to me for it), but that's it.
I am learning about recovery and addiction, but its for me to understand the process, not to change him with it.
From what I've learned, people recover when THEY are ready to and not a moment before.
Good luck!
Wife
Helping when asked is altruistic.
Helping when not asked is self-seeking.
As an adult, my alcoholic husband has the capability (although it appears he doesn't often, I know he does because all adults do!) to ask for help.
He hasn't and, in fact, doesn't want help. He doesn't want to change. He doesn't want anything different.
I have to respect that (even though he is:
- hurting himself
- hurting me
- pushing me away
etc. etc. in my opinion)
I have recovery info ready (if he ever comes to me for it), but that's it.
I am learning about recovery and addiction, but its for me to understand the process, not to change him with it.
From what I've learned, people recover when THEY are ready to and not a moment before.
Good luck!
Wife
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Originally Posted by KeepPedaling
I just wanted to say that I think it's pretty great that kmarko is here. They did a study once about why the self-help book industry is dominated by female consumers. It was found that men generally feel that they can and should solve their own problems. Which means that so many men are isolated and alone when they sort out and suffer through some of the most difficult times in there lives.
I'm glad kmarko took a leap of faith and jumped in for some support.
I'm glad kmarko took a leap of faith and jumped in for some support.
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Originally Posted by Forever4you
Kmarko, I understand exactly where you are. Perhaps our personalities are similar in that knowledge alleviates stress to a certain extent. Whether I am investing money, baking a cake or dealing with my AH I try to read and learn everything I can about the subject at hand. And there is nothing wrong with educating yourself on any topic of interest.
When I discovered how truly sick my AH was the very first thing I did was to get myself educated on every aspect of alcoholism. I wanted to know why he did so many of the things he did. I wanted to know why he didn't just STOP! I wanted to know was he just being an immature piece of s**t or was there a physiological cause for some of what I had witnessed. I wanted to know about treatments and drugs and the effective rate of recovery programs as well as non traditional treatment options. And after much reading and surfing I did learn almost everything I ever wanted to know about this horrible disease. And I did get some answers to my why questions as well as a harsh reality check about how much worse he would become should he not choose treatment.
The key to all of this is what you do with that information and knowledge you are gaining once you finish your study. What the people of this forum are wanting to make sure you understand is that having all that knowledge in no way what so ever will help your wife. It will give you answers and maybe even some comfort in knowing the "why" she has done or continues to do some things but that is ALL it will give you. You can't help her with any of what you learn unless she wants help. That's the most important message there it. Even if you convince her to go inpatient for a 28 day stay and she does not want to get better she will drink the first day she gets out. And that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the way it is with an Alcoholic.
Learn everything you want to learn. Research the meds and treatment program. Gain whatever knowledge you feel you need to have a better grasp on the illness of your spouse. Just do so with a clear understanding that the knowledge you gain will help you and only you.
I wish you the best.
When I discovered how truly sick my AH was the very first thing I did was to get myself educated on every aspect of alcoholism. I wanted to know why he did so many of the things he did. I wanted to know why he didn't just STOP! I wanted to know was he just being an immature piece of s**t or was there a physiological cause for some of what I had witnessed. I wanted to know about treatments and drugs and the effective rate of recovery programs as well as non traditional treatment options. And after much reading and surfing I did learn almost everything I ever wanted to know about this horrible disease. And I did get some answers to my why questions as well as a harsh reality check about how much worse he would become should he not choose treatment.
The key to all of this is what you do with that information and knowledge you are gaining once you finish your study. What the people of this forum are wanting to make sure you understand is that having all that knowledge in no way what so ever will help your wife. It will give you answers and maybe even some comfort in knowing the "why" she has done or continues to do some things but that is ALL it will give you. You can't help her with any of what you learn unless she wants help. That's the most important message there it. Even if you convince her to go inpatient for a 28 day stay and she does not want to get better she will drink the first day she gets out. And that is a hard pill to swallow but it is the way it is with an Alcoholic.
Learn everything you want to learn. Research the meds and treatment program. Gain whatever knowledge you feel you need to have a better grasp on the illness of your spouse. Just do so with a clear understanding that the knowledge you gain will help you and only you.
I wish you the best.
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is anyone else struck by the contradiction between the idea that nothing you does matters regarding the alcoholic (they have to help themselves) and all the discussion of enabling? Seems like a contradiction to me.
No. That's just the point.
We expend all our energy to fix/help/change and it does no good.
If we COULD change them, enabling would ROCK! We could want to fix and succeed. Instead we are on an endless treadmill of trying with no result.
There is no cheese down that tunnel, but we THINK there is, no matter how little success we achieve and we try and try and try, and perhaps, more importantly, suffer greatly in the wanting/wishing/hoping that they will change.
Suffer! Deeply! All of us.
But the suffering is not controlled by the alcoholic. It's controlled by us. And when we take control back into ourselves and make choices/growth/change within, we begin to alleviate suffering in our lives, regardless of what the alcoholic does.
No. That's just the point.
We expend all our energy to fix/help/change and it does no good.
If we COULD change them, enabling would ROCK! We could want to fix and succeed. Instead we are on an endless treadmill of trying with no result.
There is no cheese down that tunnel, but we THINK there is, no matter how little success we achieve and we try and try and try, and perhaps, more importantly, suffer greatly in the wanting/wishing/hoping that they will change.
Suffer! Deeply! All of us.
But the suffering is not controlled by the alcoholic. It's controlled by us. And when we take control back into ourselves and make choices/growth/change within, we begin to alleviate suffering in our lives, regardless of what the alcoholic does.
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Originally Posted by Carol Star
My XAH went through a hospitol detox and to an outpatient 28 local recovery group. He was court mandated. It was a waste of $ and time. He was not ready. I went "all out" in my own recovery in Alanon. He kept using. It didn't work out. He just grew more towards his using friends and away from the family. I had to divorce someone I dearly loved. It took years. The kids (his) raised by his first wife ,their mother,were very effected and have had their own subsance abuse problems. My XAH has lost everything. He is still not ready to find help. I tried but just could not help him and nearly lost myself trying.
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Originally Posted by stella27
kmarko, you are welcome here and I hope you will stick around. When I told my STBXH that we could reconcile if he would commit to stop drinking and enter a recovery program, he said point blank that he wasn't willing to stop drinking. So there ya go. I had to decide what I could tolerate for myself and my chidlren, and that's where the strength and courage and working on myself and my situation come into play.
I think all of us have tried for a long time to help our alcoholics and we are still struggling to learn that we can only help ourselves - and in so doing, they could benefit from our work on us. That's where we're coming from.
I think all of us have tried for a long time to help our alcoholics and we are still struggling to learn that we can only help ourselves - and in so doing, they could benefit from our work on us. That's where we're coming from.
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[QUOTE=Kmarko;2479484]
--If the spouse doesn't get help, what are the best approaches if you feel, as I do, that leaving with the kids isn't an option?
QUOTE]
I am still new at this myself and a lot of people here I find tend to disagree with me because I choose not to leave. I feel that there is still more I can do on my part before I get to that point. Changing the way I do things is about all I can control. I changed my attitude and they way I react and how I handle the situations. The way I look at it I have my own issues too and need to deal with them on my own. I set boundries and stick to them. By changing my own personal behavior and working on myself some thing has clicked in my fiances mind and he is making the right steps to change things on his end. It doesnt work for everyone I guess but it is working for me.
--If the spouse doesn't get help, what are the best approaches if you feel, as I do, that leaving with the kids isn't an option?
QUOTE]
I am still new at this myself and a lot of people here I find tend to disagree with me because I choose not to leave. I feel that there is still more I can do on my part before I get to that point. Changing the way I do things is about all I can control. I changed my attitude and they way I react and how I handle the situations. The way I look at it I have my own issues too and need to deal with them on my own. I set boundries and stick to them. By changing my own personal behavior and working on myself some thing has clicked in my fiances mind and he is making the right steps to change things on his end. It doesnt work for everyone I guess but it is working for me.
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Originally Posted by Kmarko
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it. And while I understand what you're saying, I think there is one area where it's a little off. If and when the alcoholic says, "you know, I do want help--what should I do?" I think then it would be good to have something to say other than, "I dunno, let me get back to you on that." But your point is well-taken.
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I am still new at this myself and a lot of people here I find tend to disagree with me because I choose not to leave. I feel that there is still more I can do on my part before I get to that point. Changing the way I do things is about all I can control. I changed my attitude and they way I react and how I handle the situations. The way I look at it I have my own issues too and need to deal with them on my own. I set boundries and stick to them. By changing my own personal behavior and working on myself some thing has clicked in my fiances mind and he is making the right steps to change things on his end. It doesnt work for everyone I guess but it is working for me.
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Originally Posted by fightingfiance
I am still new at this myself and a lot of people here I find tend to disagree with me because I choose not to leave. I feel that there is still more I can do on my part before I get to that point. Changing the way I do things is about all I can control. I changed my attitude and they way I react and how I handle the situations. The way I look at it I have my own issues too and need to deal with them on my own. I set boundries and stick to them. By changing my own personal behavior and working on myself some thing has clicked in my fiances mind and he is making the right steps to change things on his end. It doesnt work for everyone I guess but it is working for me.
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The "enabling test" for me (just for me) was always this: Is this action going to make it easier, or more difficult, for an alcoholic to continue being an active alcoholic?
Making it so that my alcoholic didn't have to take responsibility for his actions, didn't have to seek employment or better employment, didn't have to own up to the fact they were damaging our family, didn't have to fear me ever challenging the status quo with a boundary of some sort ------- all of these actions were enabling behaviors.
I imagine it's a bit different if your wife is a stay-at-home mom. But as an adult child of alcoholics, having seen (and lived) first-hand the damage that is done by having a mom be a sniveling drunk all day and putting my siblings and I in danger......maybe it's not different at all. Any actions that allow her to continue this dangerous behavior unchecked would qualify as enabling, in my book.
Setting boundaries that eventually drive her toward seeking help if she wishes to remain in the family unit? Not enabling.
Tough stuff, though. That's where Al-Anon and AA were so helpful to me. No one can explain the process of 'hitting bottom' - and how they got there - better than a recovering alcoholic.
Just my two cents. Gosh, you should have, like, a dollar eighty-nine by now!
Making it so that my alcoholic didn't have to take responsibility for his actions, didn't have to seek employment or better employment, didn't have to own up to the fact they were damaging our family, didn't have to fear me ever challenging the status quo with a boundary of some sort ------- all of these actions were enabling behaviors.
I imagine it's a bit different if your wife is a stay-at-home mom. But as an adult child of alcoholics, having seen (and lived) first-hand the damage that is done by having a mom be a sniveling drunk all day and putting my siblings and I in danger......maybe it's not different at all. Any actions that allow her to continue this dangerous behavior unchecked would qualify as enabling, in my book.
Setting boundaries that eventually drive her toward seeking help if she wishes to remain in the family unit? Not enabling.
Tough stuff, though. That's where Al-Anon and AA were so helpful to me. No one can explain the process of 'hitting bottom' - and how they got there - better than a recovering alcoholic.
Just my two cents. Gosh, you should have, like, a dollar eighty-nine by now!
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Originally Posted by GiveLove
The "enabling test" for me (just for me) was always this: Is this action going to make it easier, or more difficult, for an alcoholic to continue being an active alcoholic?
Making it so that my alcoholic didn't have to take responsibility for his actions, didn't have to seek employment or better employment, didn't have to own up to the fact they were damaging our family, didn't have to fear me ever challenging the status quo with a boundary of some sort ------- all of these actions were enabling behaviors.
I imagine it's a bit different if your wife is a stay-at-home mom. But as an adult child of alcoholics, having seen (and lived) first-hand the damage that is done by having a mom be a sniveling drunk all day and putting my siblings and I in danger......maybe it's not different at all. Any actions that allow her to continue this dangerous behavior unchecked would qualify as enabling, in my book.
Setting boundaries that eventually drive her toward seeking help if she wishes to remain in the family unit? Not enabling.
Tough stuff, though. That's where Al-Anon and AA were so helpful to me. No one can explain the process of 'hitting bottom' - and how they got there - better than a recovering alcoholic.
Just my two cents. Gosh, you should have, like, a dollar eighty-nine by now!
Making it so that my alcoholic didn't have to take responsibility for his actions, didn't have to seek employment or better employment, didn't have to own up to the fact they were damaging our family, didn't have to fear me ever challenging the status quo with a boundary of some sort ------- all of these actions were enabling behaviors.
I imagine it's a bit different if your wife is a stay-at-home mom. But as an adult child of alcoholics, having seen (and lived) first-hand the damage that is done by having a mom be a sniveling drunk all day and putting my siblings and I in danger......maybe it's not different at all. Any actions that allow her to continue this dangerous behavior unchecked would qualify as enabling, in my book.
Setting boundaries that eventually drive her toward seeking help if she wishes to remain in the family unit? Not enabling.
Tough stuff, though. That's where Al-Anon and AA were so helpful to me. No one can explain the process of 'hitting bottom' - and how they got there - better than a recovering alcoholic.
Just my two cents. Gosh, you should have, like, a dollar eighty-nine by now!
But seriously, you're post is a good one, and it gets to the contradiction I was talking about. In saying that there ARE actions that are enabling vs. actions that are not, that seems to me to illustrate that the fatalistic idea that "the alcoholic will only change if they want to" is only true as far as it goes. Meaning, that MIGHT be true, but we can (sometimes) help to affect that change in the person to wanting to be helped.
Did that make sense? Reads clunky. (But I know what I mean. : )
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Hi
When I realized the extend of my ABF's drinking I tried to learn all I could about alcoholism including going to Al Anon and learning how I was enabling him. When he decided he was ready to stop drinking I did all I could to help him to find his own recovery. After he had a bad experience at a local detox place I researched treatment in our area and was able to find a wonderful program at our local mental health centre that was for addicts with a coexisting mental health problem. In Canada, the treatment was free because it is a hospital.
He was willing to go and worked hard at the program. He was about 21 days in the detox part and another 28 days in rehab. Since then he is a regular at AA.
I would like to say that everything worked out between us but unfortunately he still has other problems (anxiety, unemployment, being a jerk) and I left him. Still, he has been sober for 3 years. If he hadn't stopped drinking I think he would be dead by now.
So I see nothing wrong with finding out information for you to have handy just in case she decides to stop. But don't be surprised if this takes WAY longer than you would expect. I'm sure she has a lot of denial going on inside her like my BF. It took some pretty serious events to make him realize the dangers of his drinking.
Spinner
When I realized the extend of my ABF's drinking I tried to learn all I could about alcoholism including going to Al Anon and learning how I was enabling him. When he decided he was ready to stop drinking I did all I could to help him to find his own recovery. After he had a bad experience at a local detox place I researched treatment in our area and was able to find a wonderful program at our local mental health centre that was for addicts with a coexisting mental health problem. In Canada, the treatment was free because it is a hospital.
He was willing to go and worked hard at the program. He was about 21 days in the detox part and another 28 days in rehab. Since then he is a regular at AA.
I would like to say that everything worked out between us but unfortunately he still has other problems (anxiety, unemployment, being a jerk) and I left him. Still, he has been sober for 3 years. If he hadn't stopped drinking I think he would be dead by now.
So I see nothing wrong with finding out information for you to have handy just in case she decides to stop. But don't be surprised if this takes WAY longer than you would expect. I'm sure she has a lot of denial going on inside her like my BF. It took some pretty serious events to make him realize the dangers of his drinking.
Spinner
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Originally Posted by Kmarko
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it. And while I understand what you're saying, I think there is one area where it's a little off. If and when the alcoholic says, "you know, I do want help--what should I do?" I think then it would be good to have something to say other than, "I dunno, let me get back to you on that." But your point is well-taken.
Another way of looking at this is if the alcoholic in question turns to you and says "I do want help" there's nothing wrong in not having all the answers. Codependents do all the work for the alcoholic. If YOU find the center, if YOU pick the doctor, if YOU do all the research, then you have not allowed your wife to walk her own path. And I can guarantee you one thing: if you do all the work on choosing a center, deciding the best one for her, etc, then if her recovery does not work, she can now blame you for it instead of focusing on her own actions or inactions.
My STXH has never in his life dug through something on his own. When it gets tough, he either looks for someone else to do it for him or he quits. While we were together I was his easy way out. When his son's mother was too much for him to deal with I became the mediator between them. I was rewarded by being treated like absolute CRAP by both of them. When he lost his job I helped get him a job where I work. I was rewarded by him hating everyone and everything, messing up continually on the job and me almost losing MY very good job for it. Every time I have "helped" him I have hurt myself and enabled him to not have to take responsibility.
Now he is one his own, and he is finally making some progress in his life. He is getting therapy and taking medication and going to 12-step group regularly. He has done this on his own. I did not find a group for him, he found his own. He now only has one person to point a finger at if something goes wrong: Himself.
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This alcoholic wife never turned to my spouse and asked for advice/help on how to get sober.
I knew there were options out there, rehab, detox, AA. I also knew when he was getting sick and tired of me being sick and tired.
I don't know how long this sitution has existed in your life, nor, how old your children are. The reason others suggest that you educate yourself is because relationships with alcoholics are not healthy, not fair, not balanced. By learning all that you can, you will be in the best position to help yourself and your children, and yes, maybe your wife if she asks for your help. Rarely does the alcoholic/addict roll over, admit defeat, and ask for help. Usually, there are all of the other stages, denial, arguing, bargaining, etc. that will occur before we accept or ask for help.
Alcoholics can recover, we can get well, so can our loved ones. The programs of AA and Al-Anon helped my loved ones and I on the journey of recovery.
Peace
I knew there were options out there, rehab, detox, AA. I also knew when he was getting sick and tired of me being sick and tired.
I don't know how long this sitution has existed in your life, nor, how old your children are. The reason others suggest that you educate yourself is because relationships with alcoholics are not healthy, not fair, not balanced. By learning all that you can, you will be in the best position to help yourself and your children, and yes, maybe your wife if she asks for your help. Rarely does the alcoholic/addict roll over, admit defeat, and ask for help. Usually, there are all of the other stages, denial, arguing, bargaining, etc. that will occur before we accept or ask for help.
Alcoholics can recover, we can get well, so can our loved ones. The programs of AA and Al-Anon helped my loved ones and I on the journey of recovery.
Peace
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Originally Posted by Kmarko
as I said initially it was a little off topic, but is anyone else struck by the contradiction between the idea that nothing you does matters regarding the alcoholic (they have to help themselves) and all the discussion of enabling? Seems like a contradiction to me.
Having said that, I do understand where you are coming from, but you are assuming the old adage "you're either part of the problem, or part of the solution" applies to the family sickness of alcoholism. It doesn't. In this case, you are either part of the problem, or not part of the problem, but the solution is out of your control. You can contribute to the problem, yes. But, not knowing what constitutes a "rock bottom" for any particular alcoholic, you cannot produce it. Some alcoholics continue to drink despite having lost all their enablers, and drink themselves to death. Thus, you can stop enabling and still not "cure" the problem. Does that clarify it a bit?
L
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Lots of different opinions and personal experiences - now you've found what we're good at
Perhaps. Not in the majority of cases, from my experience. But perhaps.
The question still remains - and I invite you into this difficult mental territory: Does she want to be helped?
WHY should your wife try to stop drinking? It's obvious she has nothing to lose by continuing to be an active alcoholic. She'll still have you, still have a roof over her head, still have the children, still have the status quo and the ability to numb anything she doesn't want to deal with, with alcohol.
Sounds like a perfect situation...what is the compelling reason for her to trade all of that in for the inconvenience and drama of 28 days in rehab?
Worth pondering. It's not a rhetorical question.
but we can (sometimes) help to affect that change in the person to wanting to be helped.
The question still remains - and I invite you into this difficult mental territory: Does she want to be helped?
WHY should your wife try to stop drinking? It's obvious she has nothing to lose by continuing to be an active alcoholic. She'll still have you, still have a roof over her head, still have the children, still have the status quo and the ability to numb anything she doesn't want to deal with, with alcohol.
Sounds like a perfect situation...what is the compelling reason for her to trade all of that in for the inconvenience and drama of 28 days in rehab?
Worth pondering. It's not a rhetorical question.
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Originally Posted by Kmarko
In addition, if by "change and control" you mean "being open to the possibility of helping" an alcoholic is "highly disrespectful to the dignity" of the alcoholic, I find that doubly strange. But again, thank you for posting.
And, BTW, I am open to the possibility of trying to help anyone who:
1. asks for my help, and
2. demonstrates through their own behavior that he/she wants my help by doing everything he/she can to help him/herself, and
3. I have in my power to help without compromising my own well-being and/or recovery.
An active A who has "made some vague moves in the past toward getting help" but for whom even "that hasn't happened for awhile," does not meet that criteria. The actions of such an individual tell me that he/she chooses to continue drinking, and, thus, my "helping" that person to do otherwise would be an attempt on my part to manipulate and/or coerce that person to act according to my will rather than to his/her own.....and, yeah, I'd say that that, to me, meets the definition of "controlling." It also doesn't sound particularly respectful...At least, I sure as h*ll wouldn't feel very respected if someone was attempting to force his/her will on me in that way!
freya
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