A Couple of Questions....
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by hps 
So, there is a possibility that "not enabling" may result in sobriety.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ontario
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by Adragonfly
Does the alcoholic always get worse? Does the disease ALWAYS progress unless treated?
Progress to what? Surely every alcoholic doesn't end up a non-productive slobering drunk all the time? or does he/she?
Some people progess slower and some faster and some get smart and sober up before they end up totally un-productive. My ex took 30 years of drinking to ruin his life and get sober, others do it in 5 or 10.
Spinner
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
from kmarko: at the bottom of "can't do anything about it"/enabling is a point that indicates things CAN be done.
Here's how it shakes down for me:
I know I cannot make an alcoholic drink or stop drinking.
I also know that I can enable, and I did enable, for a long time.
I stopped enabling because I didn't want to be helping the killer, alcohol, kill my brothers. I stopped because it was one of the ways I had to keep my side of the street clean. It cleared my mind, and freed me from the guilt of knowing I was on Team Alcohol and was helping deliver this poison to them in any way, no matter how subtle or seemingly disconnected.
And yes, I also stopped because I learned that since the only way an alcoholc (but there's no gurantee!!!!!!) ever stops and finds and commits to recovery is when they have had enough. If I am standing in the way of consequences then they may never have enough. Enabling gets in the way of their consequences. However, just because I stop enabling does not mean it will make a damn bit of difference to their choices.
I stop for ME! Because it is the right thing to do for my mental health and my growth as a human being. Because it is the right example for my children. I do not do it with an expectation of a desired effect on the alcoholic. Learning to lose all my expectations while still doing what is right was the trickiest part to accept for me. Was? Is!!! Acceptance is always the first and most difficult moment for me!
So Kmarko - addiction is a unique and complicated family disease. No, you cannot make them stop. But YES you can do everything you can to keep your own sanity and not be on the wrong team. And then it is really up to them and you can rest easy knowing that although you do not have the power to stop the disease's progression, you do have the power to step out of the way and let reality rule for yourself and the alcoholic. And, with love, it is the best you can do.....
I also liked your question about drinking around the alcoholic.... You are asking a lot of good questions - and getting a lot of good responses - but they may get lost in this long thread - maybe start a new thread for each new question!
I do not drink around my actively alcoholic brothers. In fact, I try to not be in situations with them where alcohol is even present.
When my father had several years in recovery - it was so obviously not an uncomfortable issue that I had no problem having a glass of wine around him or out to dinner etc.
peace-
b
P.S. are you straight up with your girls? Calling it what it is: alcoholism? Getting them some books/ literature or access to AlAteen or counseling? I sure wish someone had done that when I was a kid and this crazy dance of denial and insanity was ruling my house with an alcoholic father and "keepin' it all together and swept under the rug" mother!
Here's how it shakes down for me:
I know I cannot make an alcoholic drink or stop drinking.
I also know that I can enable, and I did enable, for a long time.
I stopped enabling because I didn't want to be helping the killer, alcohol, kill my brothers. I stopped because it was one of the ways I had to keep my side of the street clean. It cleared my mind, and freed me from the guilt of knowing I was on Team Alcohol and was helping deliver this poison to them in any way, no matter how subtle or seemingly disconnected.
And yes, I also stopped because I learned that since the only way an alcoholc (but there's no gurantee!!!!!!) ever stops and finds and commits to recovery is when they have had enough. If I am standing in the way of consequences then they may never have enough. Enabling gets in the way of their consequences. However, just because I stop enabling does not mean it will make a damn bit of difference to their choices.
I stop for ME! Because it is the right thing to do for my mental health and my growth as a human being. Because it is the right example for my children. I do not do it with an expectation of a desired effect on the alcoholic. Learning to lose all my expectations while still doing what is right was the trickiest part to accept for me. Was? Is!!! Acceptance is always the first and most difficult moment for me!
So Kmarko - addiction is a unique and complicated family disease. No, you cannot make them stop. But YES you can do everything you can to keep your own sanity and not be on the wrong team. And then it is really up to them and you can rest easy knowing that although you do not have the power to stop the disease's progression, you do have the power to step out of the way and let reality rule for yourself and the alcoholic. And, with love, it is the best you can do.....
I also liked your question about drinking around the alcoholic.... You are asking a lot of good questions - and getting a lot of good responses - but they may get lost in this long thread - maybe start a new thread for each new question!
I do not drink around my actively alcoholic brothers. In fact, I try to not be in situations with them where alcohol is even present.
When my father had several years in recovery - it was so obviously not an uncomfortable issue that I had no problem having a glass of wine around him or out to dinner etc.
peace-
b
P.S. are you straight up with your girls? Calling it what it is: alcoholism? Getting them some books/ literature or access to AlAteen or counseling? I sure wish someone had done that when I was a kid and this crazy dance of denial and insanity was ruling my house with an alcoholic father and "keepin' it all together and swept under the rug" mother!
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 435
Kmarko,
Can you define what you believe 'helping' your alcoholic looks like and what you believe you should be doing to help?
What would be your extent of that help?
How does this also help you and your children?
Why is in not an option for you to leave you alcoholic with your children? Is this a position that would change under any circumstances?
What is your story?
love tammy
Can you define what you believe 'helping' your alcoholic looks like and what you believe you should be doing to help?
What would be your extent of that help?
How does this also help you and your children?
Why is in not an option for you to leave you alcoholic with your children? Is this a position that would change under any circumstances?
What is your story?
love tammy
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
A Couple of Answers...
Originally Posted by Kmarko
Hi all. First let me say I have nothing but positive feelings for all who come on here and share experiences, advice, etc. Having said that, I haven't found in reading exactly what I was looking for, which I guess is more practical advice.
My wife is an alcoholic, and we have two daughters. While she has made some vague moves in the past toward getting help, that hasn't happened for awhile. Anyway, it seems the vast majority of writings, be they about al-anon or just in general, are about "finding hope" or "strength" or whatever, for the individual who knows the alcoholic. And that's fine. But am I the only one who isn't particularly interested in this stuff? I mean, I'll be fine. What I'm interested in is:
--Are there established kinds of rehab centers that are considered the best? We're in New York. It doesn't look like our health insurance would cover anything, so where does that leave us? Particularly when my understanding is it's dangerous to detox without medical supervision.
--Are there other approaches that work? Do any of the alcoholism medications (naxeltrone (sp?), etc.) work? Have they undergone trials for safety, effectiveness, etc?
--If the spouse doesn't get help, what are the best approaches if you feel, as I do, that leaving with the kids isn't an option?
Slightly off-topic, one of the things I find interesting in the reading I've done is how elastic this idea of "enabling" can be. Essentially, you can be called an enabler for any response you take to someone's drinking. And since the other most common thing that's said is that alcoholics only stop if they want to, I'm not sure what the point of enabling discussions are anyway. (Again, that doesn't go to the practical advice idea as much, I just think it's interesting.)
Anyway, I'd welcome any or all help. Thanks very much.
My wife is an alcoholic, and we have two daughters. While she has made some vague moves in the past toward getting help, that hasn't happened for awhile. Anyway, it seems the vast majority of writings, be they about al-anon or just in general, are about "finding hope" or "strength" or whatever, for the individual who knows the alcoholic. And that's fine. But am I the only one who isn't particularly interested in this stuff? I mean, I'll be fine. What I'm interested in is:
--Are there established kinds of rehab centers that are considered the best? We're in New York. It doesn't look like our health insurance would cover anything, so where does that leave us? Particularly when my understanding is it's dangerous to detox without medical supervision.
--Are there other approaches that work? Do any of the alcoholism medications (naxeltrone (sp?), etc.) work? Have they undergone trials for safety, effectiveness, etc?
--If the spouse doesn't get help, what are the best approaches if you feel, as I do, that leaving with the kids isn't an option?
Slightly off-topic, one of the things I find interesting in the reading I've done is how elastic this idea of "enabling" can be. Essentially, you can be called an enabler for any response you take to someone's drinking. And since the other most common thing that's said is that alcoholics only stop if they want to, I'm not sure what the point of enabling discussions are anyway. (Again, that doesn't go to the practical advice idea as much, I just think it's interesting.)
Anyway, I'd welcome any or all help. Thanks very much.
Descions, descions. So i have found that although you wanted practical general advice you responded with very detailed personal posts emphasing *your* stance on the many responses of others ESH the thread attracted. Hmmm. Not really your own ESH, more your opinion on others ESH. Well, whatever my take on it, you already declared your not "particularly interested in this stuff" [ESH] anyways. Did i get that right?
In looking at your original post, you can easily google all the practical anwsers to your factual questions, so i'm very sure you already have done so, yes? i think that you do appreciate this thread and this forum, Kmarko, and all the posters ESH, even though you declared your disinterest of such things from the start.
So, for me then, this thread is relevant because i do see you asking one interesting "idea" that can't be just googled: What is *exactly* enabling within *your own* circumstances? That information requires your own ESH to be examined and shared with others though of course. Troublesome for you, yes?
There is very little detail of your own life experiences, your own ESH, in this thread. It is clear you have shared just as you wanted because you have shown you can more than repond to others posting on this thread on this very topic [there own ESH], so i'm sure you and your family have meaningful ongoing discussions as well. Surely you do. You are not a novice at intelligent discourse obviously. Let's be honest here.
I doubt that you don't see the point in having discussions on the topic of enabling, i do think though that you question the depth of you own enabling, your own actions or non-actions that support the continuance of your wife's alcoholism as being relevant. I'm thinking your much to intelligent to have not crossed that bridge when you came to it, Kmarko. What a struggle with denial you must be having. Or is the struggle moot because your apathy for the true reality of your family's ongoing real-life drama overwhelming your senses thus making empathy for others an impossibly dishonest experience for you? Is introspective awareness just alot of useless justifications and endless denials? Is ignorance bliss? Is your wife an alcoholic, as you declare? I doubt you have an honest and real life understanding of what is and what is not alcoholism, Kmarko. Keep posting and you will attain that undestanding in time. Just my opinion, naturally.
You have asked for any and all help. And that is exactly what you have recieved from this thread, from others sharing their own ESH, regardless of your disinterest in "finding hope" and "strength" or whatever. Your duplicity is obvious and understandable, to me, an alcoholic of course, lol.
You say that you will be fine. Not. That statement alone shows your denial and your depth of enabling. You're already way over your head and drowning fast, Kmarko, in your fears and ignorances, and somewhere you know that to be true. You're not wasting your time responding to others ESH, and you know it. You're very much interested and of course it shows from the depth of your responses
From my ESH, i am saying you are not willingly being responsible for your own ESH, and more than that, your apparent apathy only leads me to appreciate the true dire straits for you and your family. Please don't take offense to my words. Let's take the higher road here and get on with the business of life.
Kmarko. Being an enabler is far more of a life in denial then you appreciate. I have every confidence though that you are indeed on a journey to become aware of the reality that you and your family have already past the "safe point" and only loving and responsible actions undertaken by all members of your family will win the day. Have a care towards you and yours as you discover the horrible truths of enabling in a family where alcoholism exists. It is in accepting those same truths that real life begins and triumphs.
Good journey and gosdpeed!
RobbyRobot
Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
ok folks, the original posters original question has been discussed ad nauseum and this thread has ceased to be positive and helpful. There are a lot of other people in need of support and encouragement so in order to prevent further distractions I am closing this thread.
Mike
Moderator, SoberRecovery
Mike
Moderator, SoberRecovery
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
