Tally

Yeah you're right, they love the booze more than themselves...what I meant is that alot of A's will lose their families, home and jobs etc to carry on drinking.

Why do we stay? I can't answer that for everyone..But for me, well, I'm co-dependant....I'm scared I'll miss him too much, that I'll be miserable without him, that I'll not meet anyone else who I clicked with like I did with him...that he'll meet someone else, that he'll get worse if I make him leave...loads of reasons...But I do know that if he doesn't get better I will leave him, I just don't know when.
My mother told me that I won't leave him until I'm ready to, until I've had enough (she was married to a gambler).
Alot of others are married, have their vows, religion, children together etc...there are a million reasons to leave and not as many to stay, but we do...that's insane in itself.

I think maybe the root cause of me not leaving is my self esteem....it's been extremely battered since his alcoholism progressed, my head tells me I deserve better but my actions don't follow through.

I have boundries, but they're for making my life more bearable, not his...Nothing I say to him makes any difference, I can only control me.

Without treatment life does become hell...mine is hell, so I figure I'm not ready to leave him yet, I can't force him to get help, all I can do is get help for myself.

My A must be one of the least functional alcoholics I've heard about and that's saying alot....he's seriously messed up, I wish I could help him, I wish I could leave him...I'm just not at that point yet...so I come here, read and gain strength and hope that one day I'll leave or one day he'll get help.

GiveLove

You are fortunate to be married to someone who is willing to help himself.

There are many here who have insisted on treatment and they were refused. Some were/are strong enough to leave, others do not choose that path.

Others have insisted on the boundary of treatment and their A did indeed go.
Many go through several cycles of rehab, thousands of dollars, trillions of tears. Some end up back here numerous times, always hoping that "this time will be different" ...this time it will work.

I am delighted that your husband has agreed to go to rehab. I pray that things work out the way you hope they will.

I am a gentle person but I find myself taking issue with your comments. I don't feel it is up to you to criticize the life-path others feel they must take to health & happiness, nor to act as judge and jury for the worthiness of "keeping the family together" in 100% situations; you seem to assume that they are all like yours. Your words come across as, "you people don't love enough -- what is wrong with you?" And having come to know some of the kind folks here quite well, I feel myself bristling ever-so-slightly in their -- and my own -- defense.

Each must do what he or she can do. We all do the best we can, with the light we have to see by at the time. This is not a place for criticism, but for creativity, solidarity, and support. Once outside of soberrecovery.com, there are plenty who are willing to bend our ears with "you should be more like me."

Good luck in your situation. Sending both you and your husband all the prayers, hugs, logic and hope you may need to walk this difficult path, and come out healthy and whole.

duet_4-8

I was married to my husband for 25 years; we have three children and one grandchild. He is not an alcoholic, he is a drug addict, but the disease is the same. He is addicted to pain meds and sedatives.

I did not do all the 'right' things in the beginning because I didn't know what I was dealing with. His addiction happened slowly, over many years, and I jumped through hoops trying to help him and trying to keep my family together and protect my children. In the end, the only way to help him was for me to leave him and get out of the way so he can crash and burn if need be. I can't go through anymore 'helping' him.

You don't say how long you have been married, or mention whether or not you have children. You don't mention how many times your husband has been in treatment, or if he has relapsed before.

I could be way off base, but the tone of your post leads me to believe that you don't have a heck of a lot of experience with addiction and you think you have it all figured out.

All things considered, I feel like you are painting a rather rosy picture of a disease that has destroyed a lot of the lives of folks on these boards. It really isn't as simple as you seem to believe.

You cannot force ANYONE into accepting that they have an addiction or into treatment. Sure, they might go because of the threats, but if they are not committed to it for the right reasons, for themselves, then it will not work for long.

I hope your husband makes it, I really do. I hope you stick to your boundaries and continue to take care of yourself. I don't mean to offend you, but honestly, the tone of your post was a little self-righteous because no one has all the answers. No one. If they did, none of us would be here.

None of this said to offend you, just being as bluntly honest as your original post was.....

Apolla

Missus, Oh my heart just goes out to you.

Yes, I know. Self esteem gets battered. Fear. Financial insecurity.

Does your A acknowledge his addiction?

Does he acknowledge the need for treatment?

I'm sorry, it is so painful. Addiction is a monster. Until that monster is fought - with the all the resources available - it wins.

cookconfay

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and put my 2 cents in....
I am the recovering alcoholic/addict, I went to treatment many times. I have been to jail, I have been in & out of the hospital, I have been in & out of the programs. I have been homeless, I have been unemployable, I have had lots of "things" and I have also lost many many things and people. It is clear to me that until EVERY door shuts in my face, until I have reached my bottom, until I become sick & tired of being sick & tired, until it gets so bad for ME since that's all I am concerned about... then I ain't gonna do squat about my addictions/alcoholism/disease and problems! This I know first hand from experience in my own life and have been around long enough to see it happen for many others in the programs!

Incidentally....I now have 10 yrs clean & sober, but I started over 20 yrs ago trying to get it.

Apolla

I'm sorry if that is how my post came across.

I've read hundreds of posts here on this board and have read very, very few, if any that talked about treatment. It left me confused and I asked honest questions.

Of course I don't have it all figured out. I wouldn't be headed for divorce if I did and be living separately.

I have no idea if my particular spouse is going to make it. None. I hope so but the outcome has nothing to do with me.

My sincere hope that is that someday soon the world of medicine and science will find viable treatments for the disease of addiction. It will no longer be a hidden shame, a secret or a hopeless situation. I predict in the next 10 years the focus in the treatment of alcoholism will drastically change. And it's about time.

It will start to be treated as a medical disease, not a weakness of character.

We as the family suffer but a true alcoholic suffers in ways we will never understand. We can go on and build new lives - but many of them stay stuck forever in the hell of an untreated disease. And many of those will die from it.

Until this world see addiction for what it is = we all remain stuck.

Apolla

Cookconfay,

If there was a medical treatment when you were drinking that would help you fight your cravings, would you have taken it?

Do you believe that addiction is a disease or did you just choose to drink?

And why would you, if you don't mind my asking? :-)

Which is to say that for someone to stick by an alcoholic that is not ready to change is truly a waste of time and life?!

cookconfay

I for one do believe it's a disease....I was taught early on it's a disease of the FEELINGS. I do believe in the genetics as way back in my family it's shot through with alcoholism. I began to drink and use at an early age because I didn't "FEEL" like I fit in. That I was different than everyone else. The big book talks about the problem centering in our minds! To me a medical treatment to fight cravings...no, don't think so, seems like another medicine to take over for a different drug. For me, I know that once I start, if I were to start again for instance, that is what sets up the cravings. I don't have them anymore. Haven't in many years. That's because I work on "feeling" good about me now. When I started using & drinking....I didn't "know" that I was fixing up my "disease" pretty good, ya know? I was very young and wanted to "party" with the crowd.

People with full blown alcoholism and addiction don't know how not to use or drink in the middle of their active disease. It's what is normal for them, the cravings etc....
It has to get where they either have hit their bottom or the bottom is raised to where they are at. Not everyone has to get as far down as I did. Not everyone has to go back out. Everyone is different, what is not different is the FEELINGS.

LaTeeDa

I think both "diseases" are very similar. My therapist says codependence and alcoholism are just different branches on the same tree. Why some develop a substance abuse problem and some develop a 'person' addiction, no one can explain. We all suffer in many ways, but they are not so different. Self worth is at the core and I don't believe that addicts to substances have it so different than those of us who suffer the addiction to them.

I do agree that there is small-mindedness in the general population regarding addiction, but I don't think that you can swoop in, join this board, and solve everyone's problems by telling them that 'treatment is the only answer.' In fact, there are many statistics out there that seem to suggest that most problem drinkers get sober on their own without any kind of treatment.

One of the greatest gifts of recovery for me has been the freedom from 'black and white' 'all or nothing' 'right vs. wrong' thinking that so controlled me before. I hope you can temper your opinions enough to allow the wisdom of others on this board to enrich your experience. I know I have gained an immeasurable amount of insight from those here who look at things differently than I do.

L

Buffalo66

All of these view points are great for me to read.

I do have a question, anyone can answer/PM me or whatevs..

What does it mean when Alanon or posts here refer to helping tha A get into treatment as a form of enabling?

Ifeel at a loss in the clarity department here, and I just wondered if anyone could give me a bit of information. What is the theory here? Am I reading it wrong? Are there circumstancial degrees?

Any help would be greatly used. Thanks, B66

Apolla

Sounds like my husband. Your story is so inspiring - 10 years sober. I'm so sorry that you have had to go through so much struggle.

It's interesting. Genetics. They did extensive testing on twins. Fraternal twins who were adopted out at birth. One might be a addict, the other not. Identical twins adopted out - if one as an adult was an addict, they both were - 99% of the time.

A lot of kids feel alone and alienated. Each one will drink at some point. Only the addict will become addicted.

The one thing I am positive of = addiction is a disease.

LaTeeDa

Buffalo,

I think it can be summed up that enabling is 'helping' someone who doesn't want to be helped. If the addict expresses a true and sincere desire for help, then helping to some degree (not trying to do it for them) would probably be a good thing.

If you go and read the alcoholism board on this forum, I think you will find that most who get sober do it on their own. Because they had no other choice, except death. Personally, I think 'helping' is overrated. We all try to help people who don't want, or ask for our help. And we suffer because of it.

L

Apolla

That's very interesting. Most hard core, end of the line alcoholics get sober without any treatment? No AA? No medical help? No psychological help? I find that fascinating in that I've also read that even for people IN treatment with AA and 12 step programs only 5% succeed.

Would love to see back up reliable statistics on that. Truly, it's fascinating.

cookconfay

I'm not.....it takes what it takes. Some people have to die from this....I was a miracle. All of what I had to go through got me where I am today and I'm grateful for it!!!!!

Apolla

I don't see that definition of enabling when dealing with addiction as accurate.

Enabling is when we HELP an alcoholic to drink.

From Debra Jay author of Love First and No More Letting Go. An expert on intervention.

> Isn’t it true that you can’t help someone until they want help?

This is not true. Alcoholics and addicts don’t spontaneously decide to get help for their addiction. Something happens in their life that causes them to want help.

Ask yourself this question: "If an alcoholic won’t get help until she wants help, what will get her to want help?" It can be years of personal tragedy or the loving intervention of family and friends.

Don’t addicts have to "hit bottom" before they can recover?

An addict’s bottom can be divorce, arrest, health problems, financial ruin, child neglect, loss of friends, domestic abuse, jail, insanity, death. Typically, an addict can suffer several or all of these consequences. When the addict hits bottom, the family does too.

We can "raise the bottom." Families do not have to endure years or decades of personal heartbreak and suffering over a loved one’s addiction. Family intervention is a loving and honest way to raise the bottom.

I’ve been told that treatment doesn’t work when someone is forced to accept help.

It is not how someone gets into treatment, but what happens once they are in treatment. Hazelden conducted a 25 year study which shows that the success rate in treatment is the same for people ordered into treatment by the courts and those who entered treatment on their own.

William Bennett, former Drug Czar under President Bush, writes in the Washington Post: "One clear fact about drug treatment is that success in treatment is a function of time in treatment. And time in treatment is often a function of coercion -- being forced into treatment by a loved one, an employer or, as is often the case, the legal system. People who are forced to enter treatment under legal sanctions are more likely to complete treatment programs and thus more likely to get well…"

In intervention, however, we do not force someone into treatment. We ask them to go. They make the final decision for themselves. We do, however, makes decisions to no longer do things that make it easy for the alcoholic to stay sick, and this often convinces reluctant alcoholics to get help.

http://www.lovefirst.net/faq.htm

cookconfay

To me if you help someone into treatment that is just going to save their marriage, their job, their time out of jail or whatever and they are not truly interested in trying to get clean or sober.....they are wasting space in a place where people are literally dying to get a bed in there.

Now...the old lead a horse to water thing.....again...you can get them in there, but they won't hear until they can hear, or unless they are ready.

Apolla

Buffalo66.

IMO, enabling is when we try to fix, solve, control someone else.
Codependency is when we care more about someone else's problem then they do.

Setting boundaries for ourselves and deciding what sort of people we want in our life is healthy. Knowing that if someone we are involved with has a serious problem - and there are all kinds of serious issues beside addictions - that affects our life negatively, we will make choices to protect ourselves is also healthy.

No one can ever fix anyone else. It is impossible. We all only fix ourselves. People who love us can encourage us to seek help but we must be the ones to want it, take it and change ourselves.

We have no control over someone else. We only control our own choices.

Enough reason to choose wisely! :-)

Apolla

Absolutely true.

People change when they choose to. And for some it takes hitting bottom.

duet_4-8

I believe that enabling is doing ANYTHING-including finding some sort of treatment-for an addict that they can do for themselves. Taking over for them says "You can't handle this on your own, here, I am much more competent, let me handle it for you."

Helping is when we move out of the way. Stop suffering consequences that should belong to the addict.

Exactly. And that something is when THEY decide that they have to take responsibilty for themselves and the messes that they have made.

The family has probably already been bottom-feeding for a long time......

I don't think you will find too much agreement with this statement on these boards. It just isn't the usual experience.

What exactly are these success rates and how were they arrived at?

With all due respect, I don't think this is true at all. An addict/alcoholic never "gets well". It is a chronic disease that will stay in remission if the person actively works a recovery program. It does not just go away. It will always come back without a recovery program. Always. It may take weeks, months, or years, but it will come back.

LakeMama

I know he needs treatment, he knows he needs treatment, and he has been to two different treatment centers with no success. I can't "do" the treatment for him. Why does it work for some and not others? I realize some treatment centers may be better than others, but I'm facing losing my home because I spent my tax money on the last one.