support or no support? that is the question
turning red!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: hong kong
Posts: 254
support or no support? that is the question
I've got a question & i'd like your input pleeaassee:
One thing I learn in nar-anon is: we have to detach from the addict and let him be. Let him figure his life alone. Basically stop supporting him and start supporting ourselves
One thing I read here is: comments from recovered addicts who say they would have never made it without the support of the family/loved ones.
So what is the/ur answer?!
One thing I learn in nar-anon is: we have to detach from the addict and let him be. Let him figure his life alone. Basically stop supporting him and start supporting ourselves
One thing I read here is: comments from recovered addicts who say they would have never made it without the support of the family/loved ones.
So what is the/ur answer?!
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
Many people are NOT going to like my answer to this one. I am tempted to not even answer, but I will.
If my mom detached like many of the people here did, I WOULD have killed myself. There is NO doubt in my mind whatsoever. I also have
another friend on here "Jellybeans" who was a big support to me when
I was using meth. My mom did not know about my use, Jellybeans
did.
I was still there when I was using. I was clouded over my the meth I
took everyday but I was still there. And I WAS fighting to get out, I
just didn't know how, and I was scared. As a meth user I did enjoy
that first line, but it would eventually go down hill and I personally would get so upset that I didn't feel I had a thing to live for.
In comes my mom with a phone call, or whatever. Just knowing that my mom was there and that she would never give up on me, know matter what I did, kept me going. It gave me that will to eventually give it up.
Most people don't know this, but part of what was my incentive was
that my parents bought me a car. I was overwhelmed. Mine had recently broke to the point of needing way too much $$ to fix it.
And the last year, everything was crumbling around me. My car breaking down to me was just another sign that everything was so bad,
that I should just end it all.
Getting the car, changed something in me. Made me realize that no one had forgotten about me or given up on me...
I have bought everything for myself most of my life, taken care of others. So that was huge for me.......
I'm not saying everyone would react like that, but I know Naranon would have said, Don't buy her a car..
But everyone is different. My feeling is Naranon didn't know me before, they didn't know me now, and some of the things they say wouldn't have worked with me. I would have either been dead by now, or still been using.
I think that sometimes people forget that under the person addicted is still a person who is scared, sad, hurt, upset. Their is almost always a reason that they turn to drugs. I know there was for me. It was something that for just a few minutes (well, with meth much longer)
took away the pain I had that nothing else took away. It let me be happy, and carefree again, and I missed that.
Someone left a poem in here the other day about an addict and what they say and do. It was upsetting to me, because I never hit most of those points. (if any) I'm not saying I wasn't a messed up bad person when I was using, but I still was capable of loving my family, never stole from them, etc... I made more money when I was using than I do now.
But............ one thing I'm learning by reading this board and the Naranon board is that everyone is different. I do understand why
people detach from their loved ones. I have let go of my best friend
of 8+ years, because of the things he did. So in dealing with him and
seeing what he's done, if that were my kid??????? I don't know maybe I would feel differently. I don't judge any of the people and what they do (in naranon) I learn from them and their stories. I can't imagine some of the stuff they have gone through. I have respect for all their decisions.
Just in my case, no it wouldn't have worked. Then again, I would have loved it had my family done an intervention with me. Most of the people have tried everything before they get to the point of full detachement, I believe.
lol, so I just made a long answer very confusing. I guess each person and each situation is different.
And just to clarify again, I think I sound very judgemental against Naranon, and I don't mean to be. I think it's a life saver for many.
And I only respect for the people that go their and follow the principals of it.
If my mom detached like many of the people here did, I WOULD have killed myself. There is NO doubt in my mind whatsoever. I also have
another friend on here "Jellybeans" who was a big support to me when
I was using meth. My mom did not know about my use, Jellybeans
did.
I was still there when I was using. I was clouded over my the meth I
took everyday but I was still there. And I WAS fighting to get out, I
just didn't know how, and I was scared. As a meth user I did enjoy
that first line, but it would eventually go down hill and I personally would get so upset that I didn't feel I had a thing to live for.
In comes my mom with a phone call, or whatever. Just knowing that my mom was there and that she would never give up on me, know matter what I did, kept me going. It gave me that will to eventually give it up.
Most people don't know this, but part of what was my incentive was
that my parents bought me a car. I was overwhelmed. Mine had recently broke to the point of needing way too much $$ to fix it.
And the last year, everything was crumbling around me. My car breaking down to me was just another sign that everything was so bad,
that I should just end it all.
Getting the car, changed something in me. Made me realize that no one had forgotten about me or given up on me...
I have bought everything for myself most of my life, taken care of others. So that was huge for me.......
I'm not saying everyone would react like that, but I know Naranon would have said, Don't buy her a car..
But everyone is different. My feeling is Naranon didn't know me before, they didn't know me now, and some of the things they say wouldn't have worked with me. I would have either been dead by now, or still been using.
I think that sometimes people forget that under the person addicted is still a person who is scared, sad, hurt, upset. Their is almost always a reason that they turn to drugs. I know there was for me. It was something that for just a few minutes (well, with meth much longer)
took away the pain I had that nothing else took away. It let me be happy, and carefree again, and I missed that.
Someone left a poem in here the other day about an addict and what they say and do. It was upsetting to me, because I never hit most of those points. (if any) I'm not saying I wasn't a messed up bad person when I was using, but I still was capable of loving my family, never stole from them, etc... I made more money when I was using than I do now.
But............ one thing I'm learning by reading this board and the Naranon board is that everyone is different. I do understand why
people detach from their loved ones. I have let go of my best friend
of 8+ years, because of the things he did. So in dealing with him and
seeing what he's done, if that were my kid??????? I don't know maybe I would feel differently. I don't judge any of the people and what they do (in naranon) I learn from them and their stories. I can't imagine some of the stuff they have gone through. I have respect for all their decisions.
Just in my case, no it wouldn't have worked. Then again, I would have loved it had my family done an intervention with me. Most of the people have tried everything before they get to the point of full detachement, I believe.
lol, so I just made a long answer very confusing. I guess each person and each situation is different.
And just to clarify again, I think I sound very judgemental against Naranon, and I don't mean to be. I think it's a life saver for many.
And I only respect for the people that go their and follow the principals of it.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: KCMO
Posts: 102
Agreed & agreed, done. I don't know much about the social aspects of the recovery process but I do know that through my years of using, and quite possibly even now (I'm tryin' baby I'm trying..) I back people into corners until they have no choice but to give me what I want, and in a sense, I believe all addicts are like this. It's characterized in the great book called "Games People Play" and is known as IGYNYSB {I've Got You Now You Son of a B*tch!). When I first came clean with my parents, I was so broken, and they were the only ones on earth who could help me. Like a lot of people, I was drained financially, physically, and emotionally and had little to no resources at all. If they hadn't of helped me I don't want to think of what would have happened. I didn't get a car, but I got a loving offer to come home for the first time in 4yrs and help myself get better. They have told me that gradually my respoonsibilities will increase and the support they have for me will not so much dissapear, but firm up a bit. I'm not wisened to this at all but this is just my personal experience, maybe no help would have hardened me up and maybe it would of contributed to my cycle of use, whose to know. I'm not gonna try and pretend to have a profound wisdom on this as I'm sure others can answerr your question better than that, but in my opinion it will just vary from person to person, substance to substance, and an infinitely greater number of factors revolving around the addicts external and internal environment.
Paul
Paul
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
After I read this post and replied I started thinking about something that I read in a post.
Big Sis made a post in response to someone, I'm not sure 'exactly' what she said, but it was something like,
"we have to keep ourselves well so we can be strong for them when they are ready"
I think that statement is the best answer to this thing usually. I know if I was bringing my family/friends down, making them sick, etc. I would want them to detach from me. I mostly wouldn't want them to be that affected by my stupid actions, I wouldn't want them to be upset all the time, I would want them to keep on living and be happy. 2ndly, Yes, I would want them to be strong enough to help me when I was ready. They wouldn't be able to do that if they had let me bring them down...........
So again, I think it depends on the situation and the person.
Just some more light on the subject....... from Done.
Big Sis made a post in response to someone, I'm not sure 'exactly' what she said, but it was something like,
"we have to keep ourselves well so we can be strong for them when they are ready"
I think that statement is the best answer to this thing usually. I know if I was bringing my family/friends down, making them sick, etc. I would want them to detach from me. I mostly wouldn't want them to be that affected by my stupid actions, I wouldn't want them to be upset all the time, I would want them to keep on living and be happy. 2ndly, Yes, I would want them to be strong enough to help me when I was ready. They wouldn't be able to do that if they had let me bring them down...........
So again, I think it depends on the situation and the person.
Just some more light on the subject....... from Done.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Port Carbon Pa.
Posts: 10
Support yes, Co, No. Most addicts, (not all but most) are used to blaming others for there problems. If you give them support yet at the same time let them find and get their own help they may grow up and learn to take responsibility for themselves.
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
There is nothing wrong with wanting help when you are addicted to something. And this stuff I keep hearing about making them do it all on their own?? Sometimes someone just doesn't know how to do it. You CAN lead a horse to water, make them drink No, but you can lead them and help them find their way there.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Savage MN
Posts: 22
I'm not recovering yet, but think i'm getting close so my input may not have truth over the monster. I think the substance and amount of time make a huge difference. When I first started using crack, my attitude was I don't give a s***, I'm ok and if you don't like me having fun it's your problem. As I've matured in my addiction and considering listening to some of the people that have tried to help me certain things stand out. I went to tough love to try and learn how to deal with a rebelious daughter. My addiction told me that stuff won't work with me, I know the process. Some of the driving comunications that occupy my evaluation and processing of quitting are things that were said in Love. My mother sent me a letter that burnned, and I'll share what she had to say in the letter here. She praised me for many of my accomplishments that in her view couldn't have been accomplished by anyone else. Tried to build me up and then ended with this...."and ask him (Jesus) to come into your heart. So who will you choose?!? God, your family, and a live hereafter together in heaven....or....Satan, drugs, and a life hereafter in hell. We do love you. We all choose the wrong road sometimes. Then (with gods help) we can turn around and find our way home.
I know it was from her heart, and done in love. It was a starting point to start looking at myself and what I need to do. God put me on this earth to do a few things, I'm so far behind I'll never die. Hope it helps and gives you some understanding. Love hurts, it also helps.
I know it was from her heart, and done in love. It was a starting point to start looking at myself and what I need to do. God put me on this earth to do a few things, I'm so far behind I'll never die. Hope it helps and gives you some understanding. Love hurts, it also helps.
Reach Out and Touch Faith
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: On a Sailboat
Posts: 3,871
Tough love got me clean. However, full detachment would have probably led to my death. So I say tempered love.
You have people like my grandfather who ended his life while still taking care of my mother in every way possible. Among his last words to me were "Don't take care of her, as I have done."
My mom is an addict and nothing will get her clean. She ended up selling her home because if she did, she can stay in a resthome because they will give her her DOC. I am in very limited contact with her, because she will use and abuse me just like she did her father. Anything to get her drugs.
There are different levels of addiction. Some are so addicted that when you talk to them, you really are only talking to the addiction. Others like me are still here, just hidden underneath. When you told me you loved me, the "old" me would hear it under the addiction. But my mother, she'd never hear it unless it meant she could manipulate me to get more drugs.
You have people like my grandfather who ended his life while still taking care of my mother in every way possible. Among his last words to me were "Don't take care of her, as I have done."
My mom is an addict and nothing will get her clean. She ended up selling her home because if she did, she can stay in a resthome because they will give her her DOC. I am in very limited contact with her, because she will use and abuse me just like she did her father. Anything to get her drugs.
There are different levels of addiction. Some are so addicted that when you talk to them, you really are only talking to the addiction. Others like me are still here, just hidden underneath. When you told me you loved me, the "old" me would hear it under the addiction. But my mother, she'd never hear it unless it meant she could manipulate me to get more drugs.
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
There are different levels of addiction. Some are so addicted that when you talk to them, you really are only talking to the addiction. Others like me are still here, just hidden underneath. When you told me you loved me, the "old" me would hear it under the addiction. But my mother, she'd never hear it unless it meant she could manipulate me to get more drugs.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anywhere,USA
Posts: 511
I was fortunate enough to have the support of my mom and my kids who were 15 and 12 at the time I entered treatment. However, my spouse was not ready to give up the life...and he made that perfectly clear. My first weekend in treatment he went to a naked biker party...
I realized that it was me who had to do the work on my own and that I couldn't count on anyone else to do it for me.
My mom had my kids...but other than that she had no idea how to support me other than to tell me that she loved me unconditionally.
My kids are the reason I stayed sober...I realized that they could be taken away from me and I wasn't willing to let that happen.
My ex continued to use, although not directly in front of me for the next year, at which point I asked him to leave.
After my son and I found one of his pipes in the basement in his toolbox...I told him he must leave for the sake of the kids safety...
he'd been sleeping on the couch for 6 months by this time.
So while I had some support...I basically was meeting resistance every single day within my house for the first year and a half of my sobriety.
Because he didn't like the fact that I was going to "those meetings"...
I realized that it was me who had to do the work on my own and that I couldn't count on anyone else to do it for me.
My mom had my kids...but other than that she had no idea how to support me other than to tell me that she loved me unconditionally.
My kids are the reason I stayed sober...I realized that they could be taken away from me and I wasn't willing to let that happen.
My ex continued to use, although not directly in front of me for the next year, at which point I asked him to leave.
After my son and I found one of his pipes in the basement in his toolbox...I told him he must leave for the sake of the kids safety...
he'd been sleeping on the couch for 6 months by this time.
So while I had some support...I basically was meeting resistance every single day within my house for the first year and a half of my sobriety.
Because he didn't like the fact that I was going to "those meetings"...
turning red!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: hong kong
Posts: 254
Hi All!
Thanks so much for your answers, I really appreciate & it gives me different point of views, which is great!
Basicaly I asked because my abf says he really wants to quit the habit (heroin & lately turning into methadon + smoking sleeping pills! arggg) but says he doesn't know where to turn for help.
Anyway, in 6 years i've been with him, he's been an H addict but was mostly on methadon and had also some clean months. We had pretty much a "normal" life but lately it turns into nightmare (since he quitted his job, had no money left and turned to smoking sleeping pills). He is going downhill and I'm scared for him.
So I'm detaching right now because really I can't stay and watch him destroy himself. I can't give him money to support that - no way - and, plus, I don't recognize him anymore ( I think he doesn't recognize himself anymore either - he can't even stand straight)
Honnestly, when i told him to move out last November (until he comes back clean), I thought it will do him good: you know give him a kick in the a$$... Well so far I'm wrong. He's just getting worst and worst.
I've tried to help this past weeks, even though we were supposed to be "on a break". I've told him he can sleep at our flat (which he did few nights) I gave him some money to -supposely- help him get his phone back (he pawned it), I proposed to go see the councelor with him etc etc
And now he is just driving me mad by asking me more and more money (which i now refuse)
hihihi sorry, i go on and on and on now
Ok, now, good news: his sisters stepped in (they are also worried for him) & decided to take him to see a private doctor. It's been 3 days they are taking him to see different doctors and he is in waiting list for rehabs. The good thing is he went to the appointments on time. The bad thing is: once he is finished with his appointment, he is going back to the streets & wonder around until past midnight...
Ok, now i lost track of where i wanted to come to!
Thanks for listening anyway & keep posting!
xxx
Carine
Thanks so much for your answers, I really appreciate & it gives me different point of views, which is great!
Basicaly I asked because my abf says he really wants to quit the habit (heroin & lately turning into methadon + smoking sleeping pills! arggg) but says he doesn't know where to turn for help.
Anyway, in 6 years i've been with him, he's been an H addict but was mostly on methadon and had also some clean months. We had pretty much a "normal" life but lately it turns into nightmare (since he quitted his job, had no money left and turned to smoking sleeping pills). He is going downhill and I'm scared for him.
So I'm detaching right now because really I can't stay and watch him destroy himself. I can't give him money to support that - no way - and, plus, I don't recognize him anymore ( I think he doesn't recognize himself anymore either - he can't even stand straight)
Honnestly, when i told him to move out last November (until he comes back clean), I thought it will do him good: you know give him a kick in the a$$... Well so far I'm wrong. He's just getting worst and worst.
I've tried to help this past weeks, even though we were supposed to be "on a break". I've told him he can sleep at our flat (which he did few nights) I gave him some money to -supposely- help him get his phone back (he pawned it), I proposed to go see the councelor with him etc etc
And now he is just driving me mad by asking me more and more money (which i now refuse)
hihihi sorry, i go on and on and on now
Ok, now, good news: his sisters stepped in (they are also worried for him) & decided to take him to see a private doctor. It's been 3 days they are taking him to see different doctors and he is in waiting list for rehabs. The good thing is he went to the appointments on time. The bad thing is: once he is finished with his appointment, he is going back to the streets & wonder around until past midnight...
Ok, now i lost track of where i wanted to come to!
Thanks for listening anyway & keep posting!
xxx
Carine
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 5
I have been struggeling with this delema for a while now, do I totally detach myself from friend/guy in lin love with or try harder to support him, he just burns me over and over again at what point do you say f%^$ it and let them go. I guess every situation is different, but at what point to you loose yourself to someone due to their addition...
turning red!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: hong kong
Posts: 254
Ok la, I have good news: my abf chose his recovery program:
he is going tomorrow to a detox center for one week, then after will go to a rehab for at least 3 months.
I'm sooo happy he finally made his decision and he seems much better already. He see some light again in his future!
AND I realized that, in his situation, he was unable to look for recovery on his own as he was so down in his drugs. He couldn't think straight. I'm glad his family stepped in and helped him big time. He needed help.
he is going tomorrow to a detox center for one week, then after will go to a rehab for at least 3 months.
I'm sooo happy he finally made his decision and he seems much better already. He see some light again in his future!
AND I realized that, in his situation, he was unable to look for recovery on his own as he was so down in his drugs. He couldn't think straight. I'm glad his family stepped in and helped him big time. He needed help.
Dopeless Hope Fiend
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,741
What a great post..it really took me back..my experience was different but who knows .....when I was doing heroin for five years I used and manipulated everyone around me...It was not until EVERY person I loved had either died ( my mom and brother) or locked their door that I got desperate enought o reach out for help..I have often felt jealous of people who have their families support but in my case they were only helping me prolong the inevitable crash at the bottom that I was headed for..literally..i had a horrible car wreck in my new rig ...WITH my four year old son onboard!!! I thought if I got that new ride things would be defferent too..I was right on that..I ended up in prison..on my wayt o recovery ...fianally!! I feel sad alot I have no family ...but I have you guys..and I am in awe of those of you with caring families that love you and truly care...I pray your loved one comes around..before they truly so end up alone...northbelle
turning red!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: hong kong
Posts: 254
Thanks Northbelle for your side of your story
You had quite a bumpy ride,so to speak! The most important is you found your path to recovery. Keep being strong xxx
Yes BSP, I totally agree with support but not enabling (though sometimes i have problem differenciate both!)
You had quite a bumpy ride,so to speak! The most important is you found your path to recovery. Keep being strong xxx
Yes BSP, I totally agree with support but not enabling (though sometimes i have problem differenciate both!)
Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Gassville, Arkansas
Posts: 1
thats how i feel too
i know i have to stop giving money to my AS , and i will not fix his problems or pay his bills any longer, if he loses his car ..then he just loses it. But if he needs a warm bed to crawl in or a hot meal too eat it will always be here , and he also knows he can talk to me about anything and above all he knows how much I love him.
When he does talk , i listen ..even if i dont like what i hear. I never put him down or call him a loser or anything of that nature. I do however tell him how much it hurts me , how much it is hurting him...how much his health is going down hill and how he stands to lose everything he owns, or go to jail or eventually lose his own life or maybe even someone elses if he runs of the road by passing out after he has been up for 5 days.
I do try to give him things to think about, he says he needs help, but when i mention rehab he says no. Im hoping one day he will say yes.
When he does talk , i listen ..even if i dont like what i hear. I never put him down or call him a loser or anything of that nature. I do however tell him how much it hurts me , how much it is hurting him...how much his health is going down hill and how he stands to lose everything he owns, or go to jail or eventually lose his own life or maybe even someone elses if he runs of the road by passing out after he has been up for 5 days.
I do try to give him things to think about, he says he needs help, but when i mention rehab he says no. Im hoping one day he will say yes.
turning red!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: hong kong
Posts: 254
Yep, i guess the most important is to WANNNT recovery
Just a little update here: my abf is in detox now. As I posted in my "codie section
"
he is pretty low right now and it was heart breaking when he started crying saying he wants a fresh start (which actually is good, i know, but just the way he said it and he seemed so lost and fed up by his drug life and so desperate to get out of it). It was also heart breaking when the doctor said he couldn't find a good veine on his body due to injection and had to give him sedative on his forehead
Anyway, today he called me with the doctor to tell me he chose to stay in HK (he had an option to go to a rehab in South Africa) and I think one of the reason was to be able to see me. he did ask me to visit him. We can visit every Sunday I think.
I realize how important support is, now.
xxx
Just a little update here: my abf is in detox now. As I posted in my "codie section
"he is pretty low right now and it was heart breaking when he started crying saying he wants a fresh start (which actually is good, i know, but just the way he said it and he seemed so lost and fed up by his drug life and so desperate to get out of it). It was also heart breaking when the doctor said he couldn't find a good veine on his body due to injection and had to give him sedative on his forehead
Anyway, today he called me with the doctor to tell me he chose to stay in HK (he had an option to go to a rehab in South Africa) and I think one of the reason was to be able to see me. he did ask me to visit him. We can visit every Sunday I think.
I realize how important support is, now.
xxx
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
I'm going to read that other thread too. But I just wanted to say I am so happy for you that things are looking up. I'm also proud of you for being so supportive. I know it's HARD to watch, go through, and many of the people in NarAnon don't reach out to the ones of us who have been where he is, etc. The fact that you did that speaks miles........ You are amazing. I am pulling for the both of you!!!!
turning red!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: hong kong
Posts: 254
hi Done!
Thanks for your sweet words
Yes it's hard to go through it but if my abf can get clean & stay clean it's all worth it. He is such a great guy you know, such a big heart. He deserves an amazing future. No more suffering.
and for that i'll stand by him.
You know I think there's a lot of Nar-anon who have tried for so long to help and help and help and help yet with no result, that it is understandable at one point they let go and take care of themselves instead.
Everyone has a limit. For me, i still have the drive to help my bf, i can still do it. But what about if this time doesn't work? I don't know if i'll have enough strength to go through it all again.
I guess the people you mention above are the people who have given up, maybe, but not without trying to help
BTW I'm proud of you for you being clean, you're an amazing girl
xxx
Carine
Thanks for your sweet words
Yes it's hard to go through it but if my abf can get clean & stay clean it's all worth it. He is such a great guy you know, such a big heart. He deserves an amazing future. No more suffering.
and for that i'll stand by him.
You know I think there's a lot of Nar-anon who have tried for so long to help and help and help and help yet with no result, that it is understandable at one point they let go and take care of themselves instead.
Everyone has a limit. For me, i still have the drive to help my bf, i can still do it. But what about if this time doesn't work? I don't know if i'll have enough strength to go through it all again.
I guess the people you mention above are the people who have given up, maybe, but not without trying to help
BTW I'm proud of you for you being clean, you're an amazing girl
xxx
Carine
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