Tish28

For those that have quit subs, I would like to know more regarding recovery.

I have been taking Subutex for eight years. Terrible, isn't it? All of that for a major back problem that wasn't relieved by codeine.

When I first came here, I was in a terrible state, and now thanks to you and perseverance, I have got my head together. I study the twelve steps, I read and read.
Just how different is it to do whilst taking subs, than not? Just how far are am I from my emotions and feelings? Are my thoughts,not 'Real'?

I hope that you understand what I'm getting at. Is recovery possible while on Subs? Writing that sound dumb, because I think the answer is no, because I'm not 'clean'. Please, any thoughts, E.S.&H, would be very much appreciated.

change4penny

Tish, my opinion is this...It really depends on HOW you're taking the subutex. As you've probably read in prior posts, I'm taking suboxone after a 10 year addiction to opiates, such as hydrocodone and oxycodone, plus cocaine addiction. Before entering rehab sept. 26, '08, I was swallowing 30, 10mg pills per day.
Nowadays, I take one dose of suboxone, as prescribed by my doctor, every morning, along with vitamins and I don't think about it the rest of the day. This is a far cry from where I use to be....obsessing and counting my pills constantly.
I'm working a program and going to meetings. I have no desire to take opiates, as the suboxone cuts out cravings. The cocaine is a different story and I struggle with the thoughts of using it from time to time.
I know that you have the desire to be 'clean'...I read your post here all the time.
Are you currently taking subutex? Are you taking them as prescribed? I know what it's like to have back trouble, I've got rheumatoid arthritis and it effects my back the most.
You'll be in my prayers honey, hang in there, hopefully someone will answer your question better than I can.

Hugs,

Penny

ex D-Boy

its your recovery, define it however you want. Do not worry about if others view you as clean or not.

I had an addiction to heroin for 4+ years and did both a short term methadone taper (13 days) then a short term suboxone taper (10 days) in order to get off the junk. During this time I attended meetings and got a sponsor etc.

To me, it didnt matter whether others viewed me as clean or not, i wasn't sticking needles in my arm so it was a win for me, + I knew the suboxone was only temporary.

Just remember, if you are planning to get off subutex // suboxone wean down as low as possible. It is still an opiate and will push you into withdrawal if you just stop abruptly.

stay safe ~~ scott

Sugah

I don't have direct experience, so this is offered only as an observation and what has been related to me.

I sponsor a woman who was on methadone for a year and a half. Again, I have no basis to judge the difference between methadone and suboxone, as I've never taken either one. I've worked with this woman off and on for five years, and when she came back to me the last time, she was on a 90-95mg dose of methadone. She began a taper soon after we started step work, but by the time she wrote her 4th step, she was still on 50mg a day. By the time she reached her 8th step, she'd jumped off -- with few ill effects (she only missed one day of work).

I asked her recently if she felt different, as she'd always told me she didn't "feel" the methadone in her system. She admits that, though she didn't think she was altered at the time, she can tell a definite difference in her spiritual, mental and emotional clarity. My observations? I can see the difference.

I don't think that her early step work is invalid because she was on MMT at the time. If I look back, my own head was not entirely clear when I began step work. The point is, I think, that we do it, that we put one foot in front of the other, and don't spend too much time concerning ourselves with how perfect we do each step because it's not like we don't revisit them on a daily basis. We take the steps as thoroughly as we can at the time we take them and remember that each one becomes a tool in our kit. I take step one ever day. I take step two every day. I take step three every day. Etc. Not (always) formally, but as a way of living each day. I probably do a better job of it now than I did the first time, though if I hadn't done it the first time, I wouldn't know how to do it now. Get it? It's something we practice -- so that when you are free of the subs, you'll have some tools to use to remain clean.

Tish, I do hope that you've found some guidance through the steps. I have read that you're in an area where there are no meetings. The steps are not meant to be taken in isolation. Addiction is isolating. Have you found a guide, a sponsor?

Peace & Love,
Sugah

scaredtostp

subs will keep you usiing them because if you dont you will go into wd within 3 days of stopping them, I cant understand why people get on subs, and are so happy to do so, it saves ones life and then when on it and feeling normal, people want off of the subs. A person may as well go into detox for 7-10 days and be done with the opiattesl I think i know why people go on the subs is due to the anxiety people feel when they want to stop and are unwilling fo go to medical detox, that is a scary thought as there is no oxy, vics ect in the detox and people are afraid to not make it through detox, and this failure would cause them great strees and dissapointment. Also all of the horror stories of detox stop people from going into detox, it is not easy, but they have stuff in there to really ease the wd symptoms.

vicodaniel

That is so True Scared ! People would rather go on living a lie than admit to family and Friends they have a problem, get professional help at a detox. The trouble is too many in the addiction business( oh, and what a business it is !!) recommend suboxone for financial gains more appointments more Meds !!

bval

I think at as long as subs are taken as directed they can be a real life-saver. A lot of people can't directly get off their drug of choice (I couldn't), they need the time that subs buys them to sort-of break the cycle of active addiction, the copping, the obsessing. Subs give you a chance to live a LOT more normal life for awhile, not getting high (or trying to) every day. Although I didn't do any 'formal' recovery work whilst on subs, my life changed drastically, and I *clearly* made progress towards recovery. Thus, I believe more formal recovery work is most certainly not wasted if done while on subs.

I say, don't worry about it too much, and keep on doing what you're doing Tish. Take subs as directed, keep weaning down, and then when you go to quit, you'll already have a lot more recovery tools in your arsenal at the ready for dealing with the aftermath than you would have.

I will say, though, much will be revealed when you do actually get clean. You will feel different. It's a bit difficult to put my finger on exactly *how* I feel different now, as it's not nearly as dramatic a change as I felt when I got off oxys and onto subs, but ... there's something that changes about how and who you are once you do.

Stagebear

It is a long time to be on subutex, but it is what it is.

My concern is your struggle with them. You've tried to get off of them with limited success. That's what I would be looking at.

Can one be "in recovery" while on subutex (suboxone)? Taken as directed, strictly, of course. Especially if one is following a program of recovery, as you are, my dear friend.

At least one poster who replied in the negative here is not following any such program. Take that feedback with a grain of salt.

scaredtostp

bear, must you judge peoples opinions all the time, everyone has their own views and opinions

jane_668

Tish sweetie, I'm sorry that you're struggling. Back to your question,

It's possible. I was on sub when I started going to meetings but I changed my clean date once I got off sub. The difference was in the quality of clean time. While on sub, I had pretty good days. I was feeling comfortable most of the time except when I started tapering. That stability helped me get my life together and live "almost" a normal life without being consumed by cravings daily. Yet, I didnot have any spiritual life and sometimes I felt high as if I was on my DOC. Today, I have 70 days clean. I can see lots of difference between me now and back then. Like BV said,it's hard to tell what exactly changed but there's definately a difference between being drug free and on maintenance. I guess the difference is mostly internal. I feel that I'm not trapped anymore, as if I just got released from prison. It's the taste of "Freedom" . I cannot explain it but I can definately feel it.

IMHO, 8 years is a long time to be on sub. You may suffer from some PAWs . That's why you should look for a good doctor who can help you wean down. Sub is as addictive as any drug especially after 8 years. The worst that can happen to anyone is to get addicted to both sub and their DOC. That's what my doctor used to tell me. He said in such a case the only solution would be inpatient detox where they would help the addict wean down. My doctor, when I first started subutex , was so concerned that I would abuse it and mix it with Benzo/alcohol. He always threatened to get me off subutex incase that happened. He was pushing me to start sub in a detox facility. I guess he didnot trust me or trust " the addict in me". He scared the hell out of me but it helped . I am grateful for that. That's why it's very important to find a doctor who understands addiction and is not just looking for money.

Love you dear :ghug3
Jane

Tish28

Thank you for all of your replies.

It's my spirituality that bothering me. If I'm on subs, am I getting to the 'core' of the steps. Like I said to a dear friend, I no longer cry or laugh out loud from the 'inside'. Is this the subs, or me getting stronger due to my personal circumstances.i.e. my partener?
I'm becoming hard, when really I'm an "ecorché vif" sort of person. Jane, how did you live the steps before and after? Did you 'feel' more? I'm sorry if you feel as if you have already answered this question, but can you give me some examples of your feelings before and afterwards.
Sometimes I get the feeling as if I am talking like a robot and that I'm hard. I don't express myself well. I hope that you can get a glimpse of what I'm trying to say.

Thank you for any replies, this isn't a question of being clean or not clean, it's about the emotions from either. Your input is appreciated.

My love to you all,
Tish x

vicodaniel

Are suboxone and subutex better than oxy's or hydro's ? Of course, are they better than being opiate free ?No they are not. They are a useful stepping stone for some people, I think the question is how long to stay on them.They are in and of themselves, addictive and problematic in that you have to keep seeing a doctor( and pay) get your prescription(and pay). I also think that many addiction professionals are too quick to get someone right on the subs.I only contend that people should try or at least consider DETOX.Where under professional supervision you can be opiate free in a very short time.I think many people don't go the Detox route because of the stigma and embarrassment, which is wrong. Get thee to Detox and thou shalt be free ! Also,there is going to be some diversity in opinions on this site.I don't expect everyone to agree with me,but I respect most people's right to their opinion. BV,you are very knowledgeable, believe in suboxone, but realize their is more than one way to skin a cat.Thats why I respect you,you helped me, I've heard your story and you have the street cred's.

Stagebear

I won't hijack Tish's thread further than it has been except to say her question was not about sub use as much as it was about the ability to work a 12-step program of recovery while on them. When you have experience, strength and hope regarding that issue, please share it.

tbeit

I don't have direct experience, so this is offered only as an observation and what has been related to me.

I sponsor a woman who was on methadone for a year and a half. Again, I have no basis to judge the difference between methadone and suboxone, as I've never taken either one. I've worked with this woman off and on for five years, and when she came back to me the last time, she was on a 90-95mg dose of methadone. She began a taper soon after we started step work, but by the time she wrote her 4th step, she was still on 50mg a day. By the time she reached her 8th step, she'd jumped off -- with few ill effects (she only missed one day of work).

I asked her recently if she felt different, as she'd always told me she didn't "feel" the methadone in her system. She admits that, though she didn't think she was altered at the time, she can tell a definite difference in her spiritual, mental and emotional clarity. My observations? I can see the difference.

I don't think that her early step work is invalid because she was on MMT at the time. If I look back, my own head was not entirely clear when I began step work. The point is, I think, that we do it, that we put one foot in front of the other, and don't spend too much time concerning ourselves with how perfect we do each step because it's not like we don't revisit them on a daily basis. We take the steps as thoroughly as we can at the time we take them and remember that each one becomes a tool in our kit. I take step one ever day. I take step two every day. I take step three every day. Etc. Not (always) formally, but as a way of living each day. I probably do a better job of it now than I did the first time, though if I hadn't done it the first time, I wouldn't know how to do it now. Get it? It's something we practice -- so that when you are free of the subs, you'll have some tools to use to remain clean.

Tish, I do hope that you've found some guidance through the steps. I have read that you're in an area where there are no meetings. The steps are not meant to be taken in isolation. Addiction is isolating. Have you found a guide, a sponsor?

Peace & Love,
Sugah



SUGAH, I find your post wise and thoughtful I get something from all thanks

bval

I honestly have to say the biggest difference in how I feel now vs. when I was on subs is definitely related to emotions. Subs, while they don't get you high, per se, they do definitely keep you on a very even-keel, emotionally. The 'lows', especially, get blunted by subs. I never shed a single tear while on subs, I doubt I would've been capable except in the absolute worst of circumstances (like my mom, dad, sibling, or cat dying). Nowadays, my eyes well up with tears just listening to certain songs.

It's not that I'm more sad in general being off dope/subs, far from it, actually, but I have the ability to just ... feel things ... quite a bit more acutely. It does make you feel a bit more connected to the world and the people in it, which is a good thing. But it helps to have some recovery work under your belt, otherwise, the foreign-ness of uncomfortable feelings can definitely be a big trigger. You need to have some tools. That's why I think the meetings and fellowship and step-work are still helpful, even when you're on subs. They will take on a new meaning for you when you are not, though. That is all

jane_668

umm it's kind of hard to explain. I'm working the AA program so my experince is based on that program. The core of AA program is abstenance. I first found it very conflicting to read about abstenance and I was still on drugs. So I had this feeling all the time that I wasnot clean/sober. I was working the program and the steps because I wanted to do things differently . I didnot even feel that I needed a program; I was feeling perfectly fine everyday. I would handle pressure in a smooth way. That's why I said I felt more high or like a zombie. I was so eager to get off sub. I wanted to feel life again. On sub I was in a constant state and this is not normal.

After I got off sub, the situation changed a lot. I turned from the most insensitive ,zombie like person, to the most sensitive , imbalanced and insecure person. My emotions were so raw that I would take any conversation personal. I felt people were talking about me. All my emotions started flawing. All the guilt and shame I felt started to surface again. At this point, the AA program became my safety anchor in a wild furious sea. I was literally taking it 24 hours because that's all what I was capable off. It was very hard. It was a real rollarcoaster with sharp ups and downs. One minute I would be feeling good then the next down then up again. I spent many sleepless night reading the literature because I couldnot force myself to sleep. The anxiety was so bad that I couldnot even stand still for more than 5 or 1o minutes. It was so tough and I never thought I could make it. Yet ,here I am drug free . So IMHO, yes there's a big difference. However, it's better to be on sub then relapse on pills . A person on sub can live a normal life if he/she takes it as prescribed.

Love
Jane

change4penny

I was 6 days in detox before my insurance approved the suboxone, so, I'd already been through the hell of w/d's. I will tell you this...come that 7th day, I was ready to walk out of rehab and go and find me a hydrocodone or oxycodone to take. I was addicted to opiates for more than 10 years and before going to rehab, I was taking 30 10mg pills per day just to maintain so, 8mg of suboxone per day doesn't get me high for sure.
I've now been on suboxone for approx. 6 1/2 months, and along with my doctor, it's my personal goal to be off of them within a year. By being on the sub, it has afforded me the chance to get my life in order without needing and abusing the painpills as I was. I mean, 10 years is a long time to have put so much time in effort in getting those damn pills. It was a way of life for me and I'm sure that without the sub, I would have gotten out of rehab and went back to 'using'.
As I've said before, I take my dose of sub in the morning along with vitamins, and I don't think about them for the rest of the day. Do you realize what a difference that is for someone who was constantly counting and stressing over her pills as much as I was?
It's nothing short of a miracle, cause the amount of pills I was taking per day (30) would surely have increased...I HAD to take that many just to keep from being 'dope sick'. And the more I'd increase, along with my abuse of cocaine along with it, the closer to my grave I came.

Tish, I wish you luck,

Penny

jane_668

Tish , how are you doing?