Chy

Well my sobriety surely does Dan! That for me is the day I quit growng. When I quit being open minded to how others have achieved sobriety with their addiction. When I am on a quest of knowledge of how addicts and alcoholics deal with it there can never be enough resources for the next person coming through the door. For me as an individual that is huge. First I extedend the hand of AA, if it's rejected I offer another suggestion. Because of my ability to be in constant search of other methods for other people like James who did it his way with his belief and power found in the Tao it's just another tool in the box to offer the next person still looking for an answer.

Yes I am a member of the fellowship of AA and one of the first things I learned was to be Open minded.

Dan

Bingo

Mogqua, you seem to have judged this man Frey in a way that suggests you know how his mind works.
Time out

minnie

And are often a result of a new zest for life when the bottom has been reached.

Mogqua

Chy and Dan,
He is following the suggestions of AA, he just didn't get it from AA and implies denial that AA has those suggestions.

So he is judging AA by what he doesn't know and imposing limitations on others based on his standards.
I pointed out this judgementalness and showed that it is only true in his limited knowledge of AA.

Now others are judging me for judging him judging others.
This could go on forever and its sprawling off topic now and turning into personalities declaring each other right or wrong.

~~~

I did not condemn him, I congratulated him.
And I didn't let his condemnation of AA stand either.

Be Well

equus

I take my hat off to anyone who has the guts to change their life!

I wish I'd seen the programme, I don't even know if it was shown in the UK. I think though that he'll open alot of minds to not stereotyping, just as he is, just by what he's achieved.

He may have had an advantage though - I read the ability to articulate well is a bigger bonus than a higher IQ when it comes to outcomes from addiction. Ask if you want me to dig out the reference.

FaeryQueen

Quote:

Now others are judging me for judging him judging others.

Just one big happy family....................

Dan

Nope. Not judging you Mog. I simply said it seems you're in this man's brain. I see your points as clearly stated, and might tend to agree if I could have knowledge of this man's thinking.
But until I meet him, which is unlikely, or read the book, which is an eventual certainty, I'll refrain from any pronouncements on his views of AA, or anything else, for that matter.

Mogqua

Quote:

Originally Posted by minnie

And are often a result of a new zest for life when the bottom has been reached.

Right Minnie and since either can be true they cannot be the sole confirmation of where a person is in life.

When told of all the "things" he did I could have simply said, "so!"
That has nothing to do with what we are actually discussing.

Things are just things and are a poor definition of self.
Bringing them in to win a perceived argument is really not dealing with the issue at hand.

Be Well

Grimnar

I think that is where I was at. Maybe I still am at times. I'll keep plugging away.

I'll have to get the book at some point for sure.

Chy

No Mogqua, I'm not judging at all so much as I'm saying as I see it to many words are being put into someone's mouth none of us know. No again on him judging AA, in the interview he had nothing but high praises except that it was just not for him.

See as I see it an addict in the first 30 days of sobriety is already screwed up and the first thing thrown at him 13 years ago was what the health profession knew to be successful in the disease of addiction.

It's clear this was a young man who would not be told what to do, and I think his opposition to AA still holds true because at the brief most painful period in his life again he was being told what to do when he was unwilling to be in the rehab in the first place. So it's sort of like a stigma, a bad taste from his experience there he's never resolved. But like I said, it doesn't matter to me what or how just that he did.

I think many recovery programs that are not 12 step based do in fact uses elements of the program and the only difference is the change in semantics.

Hold on, one day at a time, same concept different words, but it's his words, the words that worked for him, know what I mean?

Mogqua

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chy

...many words are being put into someone's mouth none of us know.

But like I said, it doesn't matter to me what or how just that he did.

I think many recovery programs that are not 12 step based do in fact uses elements of the program and the only difference is the change in semantics.

Hold on, one day at a time, same concept different words, but it's his words, the words that worked for him, know what I mean?

I agree, that many words including that of his mindset when entering recovery you proposed are being implemented here without knowledge,
therefore we can only deal with what is presented on that first post and whether we agree or not and why.

I agreed, but added that it was a limitation to my freedom.

I use to work with the DD community and finding a spot that works for each of them is paramount.
A person without the compassion of knowing each clients limitations doesn't make it very long.
But we don't have to live by those limitations just to make them comfortable, we must find their point of limitation and challenge them to grow beyond it.

I agree with you about semantics and his words and congratulate him, yet a third time and hope that he may one day open his mind to see the similarities in semantics one day also.

You know the old addage,
"you can tell an alcoholic, but you can't tell him much"
There is so much more to tell.

There is a certain thing that FaeryQueen was leaning towards as it sometimes seems to be almost a curse as much as a blessing, that given the words, there are rarely ears to hear.

And the reason is told to us in the Tao as well.

Be Well

minnie

Considering the vast majority of rehabs rely on heavy use of the 12 Steps, then I find this hard to believe.

And why should he not celebrate his achievements?

Chy

*LOL*.. yeah, kind of along the lines I was thinking.. WE know a lot of it is AA based but we just won't mention that little tid bit as we don't want to screw up their thinking now do we?

Mogqua

Quote:

Originally Posted by minnie

Considering the vast majority of rehabs rely on heavy use of the 12 Steps, then I find this hard to believe.

And why should he not celebrate his achievements?

He told us he didin't know by stating that,
"He steadfastly refused to deal with AA at all, ever."
And then stated two common AA practices used for sixty years.

So why judge AA by the rehabs that use them or equally why judge those rehabs for using AA?

If you want a different type of rehab then do what they did and make one.

But every one of the rehabs did the work to be what they are, 12 step or not.
And considering the vast majority of rehabs showing a completion of 70-80% they appear to be doing something right.

J.F. can celebrate his achievements all he wants but it still has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Be Well

Mogqua

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chy

*LOL*.. yeah, kind of along the lines I was thinking.. WE know a lot of it is AA based but we just won't mention that little tid bit as we don't want to screw up their thinking now do we?

I might add that its real basis is thousands of years old and AA strived to find "universal principles" to live by and that it claims no monopoly on it.

It doesn't matter where you get it, so long as you get it.

minnie

The fact that J used practices that happen to be used by AA, does not mean that AA have "ownership" of them. I am sure that even you can see that much of AA practice is nothing more than common sense. I live my life "one day at a time", which is something my father taught me. He had no experience of addiction prior to a year ago and that was through my experience with an alcoholic fiance. Does that mean he is following AA principles? Or that AA are following principles that existed previously? Who knows.

Surely only the rehabs are interested in the statistics how many are sober when their clients walk out of the door after 28 days? I know many alcoholics who can white knuckle it for a month. Keeping someone sober in an alcohol-free environment is relatively easy.

minnie

I'm confused now. So what's your problem with him rejecting AA and discovering for himself some universal principles?

Mogqua

Quote:

Originally Posted by minnie

Surely only the rehabs are interested in the statistics how many are sober when their clients walk out of the door after 28 days? I know many alcoholics who can white knuckle it for a month. Keeping someone sober in an alcohol-free environment is relatively easy.

Most 12 step rehabs are 90 days, Non-denominational, Catholic rehabs, Salvation Army can be up to 6-9 months depending on the client.
Even the legal based programs use a 60 day treatment and they all do this after detox has been done.
And they all offer after care programs which show much success also.
Even the Big Book says this is only a beginning
Rehabs are an introduction and safe place in the early stages of change.

And if you think its easy your wrong, since they can walk any time they want.
And 20% do, blaming everything on the way out to use more.

I'm sorry your confused, this isn't about AA or rejecting it.
Its really not even about rehabs.
It never was.

I don't have to have a problem with someone to feel sorry for them.
I do have to have empathy for that.

Be well

Don S

'Completion?' Do you mean abstinence rate? Very unlikely. In fact, I'm sure they are nowhere near 70 - 80%.
Don S

Mogqua

Care to start a new thread Don?
One where you can state facts that make you sure about rehabs?