Obladi

Hey Frick.

Because I'm on your side, I think you should stay where you are. It sounds like going there would be really bad for you; we both know that being motivated by martyrdom (saviorism?) is bad news. Your jerk brothers are hitting a nerve with you for sure, and I'd wager they know exactly what they're doing. Guilting or shaming you into doing what they want you to do - or not do. Taking advantage of your insecurities. You don't have to buy their line - you can figure out what you really want and do that for once.

I'm sad for your mom, too, Frick. I really am. But if you go there, will it really change your parents situation? Or will it contribute to maintaining the status quo?

What's keeping you from making the call to find a therapist? I think if you do nothing else tomorrow, do this. You know I love my therapist. A good part of this is that he is 100% on my side; he always meets me where I am. (Unless I'm being too hard on myself, then he kindly corrects me.) Aside from you guys, he is the only person on this earth with whom I can be completely honest. That helps me to be honest with myself.

Not sure if you've "done" therapy before, but I have several times and ultimately found that psychotherapy is the best modality for me. I thought I was so rational that CBT would do the trick, but that just frustrated the living daylights out of me.

Dang, I'm getting opinionated in my alcohol-free state.
But not judgmental. I only mean the best for you.

Random tune on the radio as I wrote to you - no lie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59kS2AOrGM

fini

that 'future self' that was talked about in other places here....sometimes, when i need to make a decision and cannot, i try to put myself five or ten years forward from now, or close to death, looking back.
often, then, it becomes rather more obvious what i will wish i had done now.

entropy1964

First off, thank you O and fini for taking the time to read and respond to my situation. It does help me. I can't think straight when it comes to my family. I can read or listen to other peoples challenges and believe that I see them so clearly. And I can often do the same with my own...or at least I think I can. But you throw my FOO in the mix and I am totally lost. Bifurcated if that makes sense. I am either completely stuck in the deductive/intellectual side of the matter, or totally engulfed in the emotional/psychological side. I'm this analytical adult and this frightened child. And I can't bring them together.

And O I believe, thinking rationally and totally about myself, that you are right. I'm walking in to big flucking mess that I won't even be able to impact. The only thing I could do for the 6 months that I am now only willing to commit to is just buy them more time. And I personally think, as has been said to me here, that they need better help. Would benefit with better help, professional help. But the band of brothers really seem to believe that this approach would kill them. I mean, what does one do with that? And as the scape goat, you can see where that is going. Frick won't come and take care of them, we have to put them in a home, they die, it's Frick's fault. Yay. Now my brother that was there for years but recently moved out, who left less than mentally stable brother manning the ship, thinks that less than stable brother will actually never be able to move himself out. Which I do somewhat agree with....he can barely leave the house let alone plan a move out. And he moved back because he couldn't leave his apt and had convinced himself he could only eat blended food. So yeah, there's that. But that's not really a solution, is it? Keep the loon there cause he's too dysfunctional to, I dunno, leave the house? I mean, where does my parents actual safety and well being fall into that? Anyway, its bigger than me. And I live 3 states away so being effective is pretty much impossible. Argh!

But yeah, its a huge black hole for me. I just feel so bad. I just feel so powerless. But I know being stuck in limbo is not healthy. So I have a trip there with the kiddo in June. I'm pretty sure I'll be making my decision then. I mean, if dysfunctional brother (who told me last visit that he was leaving in Sept. Uh what?) really isn't making progress on his alleged plan, why would I need to move anyway? Oh good lord these nimnoos.

So if I look ahead 5 years and ask myself if this move will be good for me? No, it won't. There is nothing good for me in it. Nothing.

Blahhhh. I wish I had no issues, a decent job, a remodeled house, a kid settled into college and no cancer. Ha! And then there's that. Ha. What the fluck am I even thinking? Must help parents at all costs. Nope. Don't think that's gonna happen. But, still not 100% sure. Hopefully I will be by July. Hopefully.

Thanks again guys and sorry to totally hijack this thread. I hope to be of more support to you guys at some point.

fini

ah, but, sorry if thi s makes it even harder: my practice of trying to look ahead five or ten years and seeing what i wish i would have done is not really about what is good for me as such.
though, of course, it enters into it.
part of what is good for me is doing what needs doing so i don’t need to live with regret and remorse later. selfish, in that way.
so that i am okay with me, later.
hm. sometimes, i imagine there is this older, wise, competent and confidently gracious woman of integrity ; this real grown-up who shines and who i so admire...what would SHE do in the situation?

instead of you moving in or them moving to care, is it an option to have someone else move in? a live-in paid experienced helper? probably cheaper than a care home and your parents could stay in their home.

entropy1964

Thanks fini. Yeah I understand the question. This isn't a situation where there is a right and wrong. I think, for me it is a 100% lose....but yeah, there are the folks. So not really sure what to do. And I'm not alone...I have 4 brothers who also, I believe, share this burden. Even if they don't believe it. I have to stay sober before all else, and sane. So, no answer yet. I'll go in June and see what's what. The wise women in me? She says run, fast. Ha!

In home care is actually much more expensive than a home. That's if you hire someone who is licensed. And even undocumented workers are pricey in the Bay Area...they know they can be. And my parents live in one of the richest cities in the country. They aren't rich, because they moved there 55 years ago. But literally everyone else is. I mean, big rich. Google rich. Per my calculations it would cost about 240k for 24 hour care. Live in might be less but as long as my dad is sundowning it would need to be shift coverage. A live in person has to sleep too. A home, if its a good one, would be about 150k. That's here in Idaho. Probably 180k in Cali. But the choices in Cali suck. The ones here are awesome. So I don't know.

So its back to limbo, ya know? I'll go in June, 'see' how things are going. See if the brother living there is any closer to a 'plan' to leave. Yeah, there are ways to make him 'stuck' there....the approach my other brothers are taking, if subconsciously. But I don't feel right about that. I don't want him stuck in the same way I don't want to be stuck. But he did choose to move there, to help himself. And he can't find his way out of a paper bag. And honestly I'm not sure what would stop him from ending right up in the same mess he was in a few years back if he does move. In some ways its best for him to be there....but that has to be his choice. I was trying to provide him some relief. But the situation is complex and getting more so daily.

So the game for me now is to try to stay in the moment. Stay focused on my daughter and my home and my life here.

Sure wish I didn't have vertigo right now. Vertigo sucks. I hope it goes soon because its hard to be active....then I just get to sick here and feel sorry for myself!

fini

hug to you, Frick.
hope the vertigo stops and you get a breather today.

Dropsie

Frick,

So sorry about the vertigo.

I hate to be the nay sayer, but your brother wont be able to take care of them. Even if he wanted to.

Even for you, very very hard when it gets worse. And it will. And if something could test my sobriety, caring for two alzeimer patients who were also my parents would be it.

But I get it, your mom is still there and needs you.

None of my business, but I think you should put a pin in all of this until your daughter is safely at school.

Shame to have her last months at home overwhelmed by this.

Hang in there. I vote with O on the therapist.

FindingMyNext

Hi, everyone! Checking in.
Frick... I'm with the others. Why jump in a lion's den when you can clearly see the lions?
It really resonated with me when you said you can't think straight when it comes to your family. I am SO like that. I get all messed up in the head, though it is a lot better sober, isn't it?
I don't mean to compare situations, but my siblings/parents dynamic is hard, for many reasons, and I always want to be the one to jump in and help my parents most. I think it's because I want them to love me best. Because my siblings aren't such good people sometimes. Which is the skewed thinking that wore me out and got me gulping vodka; the pressure I was putting on myself ALL.THE.TIME. to be the sane and good one. Ironic, isn't it?

Your Mom knows.

I'm doing well. Jeez oh pete, how the onset of spring can lighten the mood and make things better! Finally warm here in the midwest, with sunshine and blue skies. Thank God. I'm interviewing for a big new job on Thursday. I hope I get it but won't be devastated if I don't; being sober helps me be reasonable and rational. Thank goodness.

Love following along with all of you.

entropy1964

Yeah Vertigo is weird. I am better so I decided to do a dance fitness class. ha. I was ok but that might not have been the best choice. Back to long walks for a few more days until the wooziness subsides.

Thank you again for the support guys.

Yes Dropsie I believe you are right. And yes I am trying to stay in the moment with my daughter. Its so tough. But this is all above my pay grade I'm afraid.

FMN it is weird, the whole family dynamic. And I'm by no means innocent ...I've made mistakes. But frankly, if I never saw any of my brothers again that wouldn't be a bad thing. Is it me? Is it them? I dunno. I just know it is negative and always has been. I will never be anything to any of them, really. So there ya go. And yes, why swim with sharks? Sounds dangerous

So its a beautiful spring day. Gonna go look at tile for the bathroom. Pick up dirt. Get some food with the kiddo. That does not suck!

Dropsie

Does not suck at all - enjoy!

entropy1964

Ok someone jump in and take over this thread. I think I've whined enough. And again, thank you so much for all the support.....stay tuned.....

Cosima11

Ok I suppose I can take over the whining for a bit.. I'm sorry to hear about your frustrating situation Frick, it's prompted me to think about my own family drama so I'll share a bit about my FOO.. I'm currently estranged from my grandparents, which I do feel some very heavy guilt about since of course they're only getting older.. I'm not sure how to explain the problem other than to say my grandma in particular is literally obsessed with her children and grandchildren's lives. Some people might say "there's no such thing as caring or loving too much" but I see it as highly sick behavior. The final straw was when she sent me a 5 page typed letter about all the things I should be doing differently (mainly the gist of it was how I should be married by now or at least have a better job). Followed by a bombardment of anxious texts and phone calls. This in the midst of my trying to get and stay sober and enough was enough.

My mom isn't any better, there's just a constant stream of unanswered texts that she sends me despite knowing I have no interest in speaking with her (at least nowhere close to that extent). In her eyes it might be "cute or momish" but I see it as basically a reminder of how I've been taught my entire life that I have no right to set boundaries with others. And that it's not important to respect other people's boundaries. Add to that the fact that she was extremely verbally abusive for several years and I just don't see there being some great close relationship with her, ever.

So I guess what I'm getting at here is I do understand the struggle of needing to do what's best for yourself, but also feeling immense guilt and pressure to live out other people's wishes. Sorry for the novel but yeah I hope you will find the most peaceful and healthy solution!

entropy1964

Hi Cosima!

Ah families.

I'm pretty sure I married my first husband to appease my family. I knew he was the kind of guy they would like. My brothers would like him because he was so mediocre....no competition. I wouldn't be able to rise on the economic ladder above them....and that's very important. He just sort of blended in....like human tofu. My father still asks about him all the time. I mean, all. the. time. And he did this before the dementia too. He literally doesn't remember I even had a second husband who died. No one.....and I mean, no one, ever talks about my second husband. Its like he doesn't exist. And he was a threat to my brothers.....if he'd lived not sure how that would have changed the dynamic. Or maybe it wouldn't have changed it at all. Guess the point is, I get the pressure to get married. I know now that it is their fear, their need to understand me, or their inability too, that drives them to put me in a box they can relate to. I fell right into it in order to try to get their approval. And then I got to get a divorce. So better to wait, then to rush some idea that you 'should' be married.

I guess for me, even now, even after soooo many years and so much distance, I am inextricably enmeshed in my childhood role of scapegoat. Its like group psychosis. I hate the person I become in this dynamic and I know the only way to break the dynamic is if I change my behavior and my reactions to everyone else. But in this environment, where it is so complex, it is virtually impossible for me to do so. Its such a powerless feeling. I can see things so clearly most of the time, even my own behavior. But you throw me in the family blender and I'm a mess...don't know which way is up. So the only way for me, at 54 years old, is out. I'm not the neglected, lonely little 8 year old anymore, or the angry 15 year old. But hell if my brain knows that. Its very complex.

My family seems to be able to highlight all the 'shoulds' in me. I should be this, or that. And they don't need to say it for me to feel it. And I know that much of that is on me...hence the guilt. And that is the shlit addiction is made of.

Boundaries, hell walls, are what is required between me and my FOO. Its survival.

Cosima11

Walls are good sometimes. I realize it probably sounds trivial and like I'm a terrible person but in some ways it did become a matter of literal survival. Yes if I was forced back into those dynamics now with some sobriety under my belt I could find different and healthier ways of dealing with them, but I had to get myself out from under the addiction first. And now there's no way I'd want to partake in any part of it anymore.

I did originally try doing things the “right” way.. had a partial scholarship at a good university, could’ve settled down young and had a very safe and predictable future.. but it wasn’t a future I chose for myself and unfortunately self destruction was the only “out” I could see.

Now I’m not rich or wildly successful but I’m self sufficient and don’t take money from anyone in the family as I know there would always be strings attached. I do believe one day I’ll have the career and maybe even the relationship.. but if I can’t show my face unless I also have those trophies to show then it’s not an authentic relationship. I guess I've just felt like I'd rather be ridiculed for who I am than praised for something I'm not.

Anyway sorry for the tangent!

Dropsie

F and C,

Families are tough.

I was never able to draw any boundries with mine until my parents both passed. Luckily, I guess I did not need the boundries as badly, but I certainly spent a lot of time playing my part in the group. Funny how they never get over things that happened when you were young and by keeping you in the place holder they keep you in that place.

My youngest sister who was the sunshine of the family was murdered when she was in her 20s and obviously that created a totally different dynamic and group pain and loss that never healed.

Now my brother has transitioned at 55 and somehow blames me for every problem in his life both then and now. She is nicer than he was, but still dealing with her problems by blaming me, really, at 55?

And my other sister and I were always totally different but close, but now her new GF hates me, so that is not easy. And her son who is the glue that holds us together is leaving for college in the Fall, like Frick's daughter, so time will tell.

But that is a long way of saying that every family has its own dynamic, but for me the only thing I look back on with regret is the years I spent trying to make up for things I had never done to make them respect me or love me in ways they either already did or never would. I think a lot of the reason my sister blames is because I never played small, but I still spent years trying to make my mother love me -- so sad as in the end I realized that she did love me already in her way, just not the way I needed.

Reading your message Frick made me fear even more that you would be moving home for the wrong reasons and you won't get out of it what you hope. Its your choice obviously but if your inner child is telling you you need to do this to be respected and that you will show them how good you are now, she is wrong. They either know already or never will. Do it if its good for you, if not, go blow your wad at PB and enjoy your new digs.

Cosmina, that sounds crazy, my daughter also finds me intrusive and I call her less than once a week and text her about the same (and she lives close and just finished college). I hope you will get to a stage when you can talk to both of them honestly and without emotion or fear about how you feel. And then they will change or they wont, but everyone will know.

But for all of us, our sobriety is first, so at the end of the day, protect that above all else because without it we really are screwed.

entropy1964

Good morning!

Well Cosima I've learned the hard way there is no 'right' way unless it is your journey. Every time I did something to 'fit in' or to appease my family it failed. In the end, I'm a strong woman and I snap back to my 'true' self so whatever mask I'm wearing or part I'm playing, it eventually implodes or fails. Kind of the heart of my role as the scape goat. Keep failing because I don't follow my own heart and soul. Keep trying to please and end up pleasing no one. So sounds to me like you are doing exactly what you should be doing.

Dropsie you are so correct about me moving, in part at least, to get some sort of stamp of approval that I simply will never have. Or maybe already have but it won't be the 'status' I'm hoping for. And there's the question 'why the hell do I need status anyway?'. In any other situation I would be able to detach from this. But, well, family. And what makes it even more complex is I truly don't know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I'm not making this all up. I mean, I know I'm not, but I'm not sure how much of this is 'in my head' so to speak. That's the part where all the childhood stuff just poisons everything and makes it so hard to see where one persons actions stop and my emotions begin. So yeah, I am going to be very careful about this move. I am already pretty much moving away from the idea. But it could still happen. For a brief period of time. We'll see. I probably won't really pull the trigger until July, after I return from the trip. I have many reasons to NOT go....one big one is cancer. All I need to do is put that on the table and that will end the discussions. No one has asked me one question about it, asked if I'm ok. Not a word. Isn't that something? I think its amazing. But that's my family.

I'm so sorry about your sister Drops.

Cosima11

Thanks Frick and Dropsie. Frick, it is kind of amazing that your brothers are expecting you to uproot your life to look after your parent's health when they can't be bothered to even pretend to care about yours... I guess it'll have to come down to what's in your heart but if you know your being there is only a temporary fix, I'd have to agree with others who have said it may not be in your best interest.

Dropsie, I'm also sorry about your sister, that's awful. You're right that maybe someday things will be different. But for now I'm really being forced to face how in relationships I either tend to cling on to someone or be clung on to. Neither are healthy, both are patterns I learned in childhood. Probably, once I heal my own issues (and in my current "relationship" a lot of these childhood wounds and somewhat unfounded narratives have been coming to the surface) I won't be as bothered by the incessant intrusions.. But that's the whole thing, I can't heal my own issues if they are constantly trying to step in and dictate my every move. Which has always been the case whether or not there's an actual problem.

I can see it's a cycle passed down for generations but I'm desperate to break it. Even if it means not having my own kids... the cycle will be broken. It's interesting how sometimes kids with parents who are addicted grow up to be co-dependent and I wonder if it can work the opposite way? Kids with co-dependent parents ending up as addicts.. Not looking to cast blame just genuinely curious how it is that neither of my parents are addicts yet I turned out to be and my sister was in a serious long term relationship with a heroin addict who eventually OD'd. Anyway that's enough childhood talk from me.. thanks again for the feedback.

entropy1964

Cosima I relate so much to your post. Frankly, I know I can't be in a relationship because of the very issues you describe. And I've realized I can't even unravel it. Maybe, someday, some time. But not today. And being a little long in the tooth I don't even desire a relationship. Guess that's a good thing.

Humans are a pretty weird species. The whole fear of death thing and all that. Dunno if there actually are 'healthy' people out there. Peel back a few layers and there is almost always some level of 'sick' there. And the more 'normal' people seem to be, the weirder. Ha! I don't know. We all seem to think to darn much.

I think addicts have a good chance of becoming at least true to ourselves. We have to. As long as we don't get all judgie, and high horsey. Which does tend to happen. Heck I don't know. I had a kid, and yeah I've definitely left some scars. But I'm so glad I had her.....even if I am a pretty dysfunctional mom who has continued the cycle, albeit unknowingly.

Cosima11

Yeah sorry that turned into a lot of venting, I guess I still have lingering resentments towards my FOO. But at the end of the day I understand we're all caught in cycles that it's impossible to be fully aware of until many times after the fact, and that's just part of being human.. I do plan on reconciling with my grandma soon and feel guilty it hasn't happened sooner (even though I still don't have the slightest clue what to tell her about myself or my life as none of it will be what she wants to hear). Things are "good" with my mom as long as there's plenty of literal distance between us, and she basically knows what I've gone through.. although her attempts at "understanding" addiction have made me slightly furious because she's just so, so far off.

No idea if I'll end up having kids someday... the window of opportunity for that is shortening but I can't really start thinking about that when there's still so much that would have to change first. And I have been feeling growing pressure to directly address the relationship issues with this person I'm always complaining about. It's been over a year of uncertainty, if I truly thought it was a lost cause I'd walk away but sadly I think there are just things in the way that need to be healed. So I'm trying to turn the focus inwards and do my part in addressing the patterns going on underneath. It kind of sucks honestly and it still might not work out but unlike when I was drinking I'm not just going to "move on" because it's hard or painful and then live with the regret of not trying later.

So really the "work" of sobriety for me is still in full swing but I don't mean to sound so negative cause I am grateful that I'm even able to do this kind of inner work now.

fini

"So really the "work" of sobriety for me is still in full swing but I don't mean to sound so negative cause I am grateful that I'm even able to do this kind of inner work now."

this is so huge.
so often, fear of all that was a barrier (one more conveniently placed obstacle) to me getting sober.
to be grateful for the opportunity to do it...what a change in perspective!