zjw

You ever check out rich roll? he was an alcholic took up endurance sports as well.

My biggest gripe is i dont have time to run even more lol.

GroundhogDay

Thank you, zjw. i definitely need to get off my butt and run in the morning before work. I also think I need to be honest with myself. I need to hand my boss back the garbage, or at least not try to solve the problems he creates. I think I don't because I think I can advance my career by aiding and abetting. That is what makes me a hypocritical jerk. I need to accept that my career will suffer, but I will save my sanity and self-esteem.

EndGameNYC

Worth repeating.

I often got my own way when I was drinking. Or so it seemed to me at the time.

Having lost virtually everything good in my life, I can't say it worked out well for me.

Aggressiveness screams; assertiveness whispers.

Aellyce

I am quite an assertive person in general when it comes to important elements of my life, things I care about. A lot of this, I think, is coming from my childhood, the kind of (very assertive and outspoken) father I grew up with in opposition to my mother who rarely expressed her own independent wishes and opinions and generally being surrounded by and drawn to quite independent characters. There is a big difference, IMO, between goal directed assertiveness and tackling things head on, and projected anger and aggression. I think that these things are often confused and used interchangeably.

Like many of us, I often felt very irritable in early sobriety but it's a very different experience for me than self directed, healthy assertiveness. Like healthy self confidence vs aggression. That sort of irritability often involves displaced anger projected into external things and the environment while assertiveness is more associated with wanting to find reasonable and realistic ways to get where I want to be, to deal with obstacles, obvious unfairness and take challenges openly without harming others rather than acting manipulatively/defensively. I did some interesting work on these things in psychotherapy a while ago that I thought was pretty cool but not easily to get into at first. Not the best idea to do this with someone very insecure though.

I also second the exercise. I think that anger and aggression, if channeled appropriately, can be a great source of fuel and motivation for constructive action that can serve our well being.

steve-in-kville

^^^ another excellent point!!

Love these replies, folks. Keep 'em coming.

Darwinia

I think not being embarassing drunks anymore do give us more confidence. We can be more assertive and set boundaries that previously we just let slide. It could sometimes be a bit unfair given our histories but there it is.

EndGameNYC

Assertiveness is just the other side of people pleasing as a means of manipulating them to leave us alone.

Big difference, though. Anyone can suck up to someone else. It takes a great deal of inner work to become someone for whom true assertiveness is an integral and integrated part of who they are.

My thoughts on "assertiveness training" is that, though it may "work" for a specific event, it can also be like placing a weapon in the hands of a child. Nothing can replace hard work.

Aellyce

This is an interesting thread but I do feel we confuse a few terms and behaviors or perhaps we are talking about more diverse things. What is it called then when we pursue worthwhile, healthy goals and deal with obstacles that might arise on the go (including aggressive people), in order to reach that goal? I am not talking about addicts manipulating the environment in order to get away with our destructive behaviors, more situations where we do not let others push us around manipulatively. I personally don't believe that assertiveness implies lack of humility or lack of good social skills, or perhaps the behavior I am thinking of is called something else?

Also, I prefer not to think about these things in a black and while way, i.e. just because we are addicts and certain parts of our lives and behaviors were seriously wrong, then all subsequent reactions and goal directed acts will be flawed and driven by addict motivations. IMO, thinking that way can be another sign of insecurity and pseudo-humility. I also think that there is no absolute and everyone's behavior includes positive, constructive, manipulative and defensive elements. In my mind, one important factor is an ability/willingness to see beyond the moment and consider potential consequences. But if we never stand up to what we want and aim for, if we do not follow through often in the face of obstacles and adversities, how can we work forward and improve ourselves and even help others in effective ways?

zjw

yeah sometimes less is more.

I try to make my sanity and my health first prirority then whatever i gto left is for the rest.

its like my job doesnt define me.

steve-in-kville

Back in the mid-90's when I first became an EMT, I had an instructor that defined the difference between being aggressive and being assertive:

Aggressive - "My way or the highway, no matter what"

Assertive- Being able to quickly act/perform with confidence.

Aellyce

Well that is closer to what I was thinking, steve.

Another thought... I think that as active addicts, we often develop a high level of apathy towards the world and stop caring what we want to achieve beyond the instant gratification provided by the addiction and trying to cover it up. So when we get sober, we may wonder "and so what now"? Suddenly we may recognize many things that we used to cultivate our self absorbed and sedentary life, and when those get out of the equation, we may discover feelings, including aggressive impulses, that were masked for a long time... or perhaps in our whole life. There are ideas suggesting that often the psychological root of addictions is repressed aggression, or aggression turned toward ourselves in the form of self destructive and numbing behaviors. Repressed anger and frustration toward destructive, abusive, or dismissive people in our lives, often from long time ago, that we do not attack but actually protect via finding flaws in ourselves and putting all blame on the self. And we anesthetize the remaining frustration via escaping behaviors and trying to alter our reality perception, with substances and in other ways. I personally think it is not as simple as that, but there may be some truth in it (this is the kind of stuff I explored in therapy for a while).

My personal view is that good recovery work should not involve putting blame for everything on ourselves forever, more a realistic, systematic, and thorough exploration of where these feelings and behaviors come from and how to handle them in a healthier, more balanced way. For example, exercise can be good to treat the symptoms in the moment, but it won't cure the root cause. Not all of our urges and impulses represent negative thought and emotional patterns, IMO sometimes the overly submissive ones do (for example, allowing abuse). This may spark some controversy here, but I sometimes feel that these things are discussed in another extreme manner in recovery circles, suggesting that people who struggled with addictions have inherently flawed motivational patterns in most things that can never truly be trusted. For me, thinking like that may just further cultivate a lack of self esteem and black & white world view, which may prolong that we will never accept and trust our feelings and perceptions because they failed in certain areas.

What I like to think as a good approach is to always examine ourselves when aggressive impulses and irritability arise and try to see in a realistic way what the source is. I think it is often within, but not always... and antagonistic feelings can sometimes be very healthy responses to real external threat and unfairness. Or perhaps just signs that we are not living the life that we truly would want.

GroundhogDay

Aeellyce, I think you have posted some very thought-provoking ways of looking at this issue.

I know I am not living the professional life I want to be living, but most options would be far worse and the bills have to be paid. For me, the problem isn't aggression, it's tact. It's like I have a tact disability.

tekink

I'm just on day five but I've been going on and off the wagon all summer.

Right now the smallest little thing sets me off like a bomb. No assertiveness here, but a bit aggressive and very angry.

I've had two emotions this week, pissed and depressed, they keep swapping back and forth on me. :/

Soberpotamus

And now, let's throw in one more variable ... regional differences and culture.

Many times I find that when I am direct, clear, and assertive, I am perceived as rude, blunt, or a bitch. (Btw, I live in Alabama.)This is something that really irks me, too. And it also depends on the group of people I'm around, oftentimes, the demographics.

GroundhogDay, I can relate to your issues at work very much. However, I don't think I lack tact. But maybe it's my own perception of it that tells me this? I am actually polite and quite careful in my communication most times, to try and avoid misunderstandings, as it's been happening this way most of my adult life.

I am clear, direct, and to the point. That is my personality. I also know when not to say something, and I do tell white lies to save people from hurt feelings. But if I feel it's ok, I tend to be myself and that is very clear, analytical, direct, and detailed. People seem not to like this, lol.

And then I wonder how many people enjoy muddled information? Muddled communication, because it allows for manipulation, and allows for denial to run rampant, and let's them engage in their 'drama.' It seems women have this specific way of dodging the issue at hand, sugar-coating, hinting, implying, and these covert ways of attacking other women.

I just don't do these things. It is not my nature. It is my nature to uncover, understand, analyze, synthesize, and to be very efficient about it all. People misunderstand me all the time. It is so odd to me, because I couldn't be more clear or transparent.

I posted about some incidents at work today related to this, over in my Big Life Changes thread.

Aellyce

Definitely cultural differences play a role in all this. I've lived in a few different countries and areas within a country and had, um... interesting experiences. Directness does not go over very well everywhere and is sometimes misunderstood grossly. I at times feel that people expect more manipulation and mind games for the sake of fitting in and conforming but at other times I suspect it's my lacking of certain kinds of emotional intelligence. Not always easy to tell which.

Soberpotamus

Yeah, the conforming/fitting in thing ... I just could give a rip at my age. I just want peace. I have too much left to do with my life to waste time and energy on the mind games. Can't stand them.

Boleo

That's what I mean by using assertiveness to maintain boundaries... You do "your part" and let your boss do "his part" and then detach from the outcome.

As long as you are doing "your part" 100%, other people can't fault you for failing to do more than your part. The sh*t will eventually roll back uphill. You just have to wait it out.

Soberpotamus

Good advice, Boleo.

EndGameNYC

I'm pretty sure this is not limited to or primarily something among women.

But what you're talking about is real, and has been a "thing" in psychoanalysis and psychoanalytic theory for some time.

"Mystification" is about obscuring or camouflaging what is actually going on between two or more people, and particularly in families, in order to maintain a destructive status quo. It also helps to explain the processes behind why so many relationships either fail and end up in separation or, more frequently, fail and end up with two people staying together despite a lack of care and concern for or from one or both parties, or both outright and subtle abuse.

Look up R.D. Laing and mystification. Or just take a look at Laing for the hell of it. He was quite something for his time.

Soberpotamus

Thanks, EG

I am looking now...