KAD

My first reaction was to chuckle. I fell for that delusion sooo many times. I remember the last time, specifically. I thought, since I was going to moderate I'd buy a more expensive liquor, instead of the usual bottom shelf swill, and make it last the whole week. The first day, I planned on having "only" 4 drinks. My rationale was, since I usually drank an average of 16 drinks, 4 was a vast improvement. Second day, I intended on only having 4 again, but after the 4th, I thought...well 5 is still better than 16. You get the picture. By the end of about 3 days, I was back to everyday drinking again (and bottom shelf swill again).

I should also add that, through this whole process as well as every other time I attempted to moderate, all I thought about all day long was when I was going to get to drink again. I'd get so frustrated waiting for it, and then I'd get frustrated again because I wasn't getting as much as I wanted. I determined that if I had to think about how much I was drinking, I probably was either not going to enjoy it, or end up overdoing it again. I found it much easier to keep the lion locked in a cage than try to him out "just a little bit."

This describes me, as well. I drank 24/7. If I was awake, chances are I was at some level of intoxication. I finally have arrived at what I believe to be an absolute for me: I cannot safely consume alcohol again, ever.

KeyofC

Let me say this about moderation for an alcoholic:
"One is one too many, one more is never enough."

Many have tried, many have failed.

Loekken

This I have heard before of course. Yet what makes an alcoholic different from a person who for example drinks too much? Is the line blurred or can you make a distinct differentiation? I would say an alcoholic, then, is the one who fails to manage his life as he (or she) set out to do, fails to live up to duties and responsibilities. My wife told me I have duties and responsibilities (I agree) - I drank before and took care of them, I drank and it fell apart. When was I what again? Or is it the person who fails to stop drinking?

KAD

The Big Book makes some differentiation between a "hard drinker" and an alcoholic but only you can answer the question as to which you are. Has your drinking caused serious problems in your life? From what you tell me, it most certainly has. Have you become physically dependent upon it, i.e. do you suffer physical withdrawal symptoms when you stop? That last part, I think, sealed my alcoholism even though it only happened in the last 10 years of my drinking, but I was psychologically hooked up until then. That's why I kept going.

From what you have shared about your past - that your drinking episodes seemed to get progressively worse - I would strongly advise against ever testing the waters again.

KeyofC

To me, alcoholic is a term. It's a stereo type. Heavy drinker, alcoholic. It is whatever you decide to stereotype yourself as. To me, I think either/or can cause someone issues. If someone's not able to manage their drinking moderately, have two or three and stop, they have a problem. Now, people get drunk sometimes and that doesn't to me mean they have a problem. If it occurs more often than not, I think it signifies a problem. I am far from the stereotypical role of what's considered an alcoholic as I think 99%of the people on SR would be too, but I can't seem to say that I'll have two beers and stop. Then I'll have "one more" and I'll have "just one more" and oh my gosh now I'm drunk. It was causing me to fail at my relationships that once existed so easily and effortlessly. It was causing me, me. I was not the person I used to be. So if you really are trying to make a grey area out of a black and white one and you're really scrutinizing it so closely as to where to draw the line, that in itself should speak volumes. Not trying to be mean or hurtful, just honest. The phrase "one is one too many, one more is never enough" is a Kenny Chesney song, it should sound familiar.
Just my opinions here not trying to make you believe them or upset you.

Loekken

Well I usually characterized myself as a 'problem drinker'. My life seemed problematic in general to me, so I drank quite a bit, since age 18 or so. I thought I self medicated, to an extent. Later on my self medication caused me a lot of personal problems, especially in romantic relationships and money problems, etc. Recently it became very dangerous and I'm now having a pretty good sober run.

I wouldn't say I ever became very physically dependent on alcohol so far. I have certainly had withdrawal symptoms though and when they got intolerable, I went for detoxes (I lost count/ do not remember how many times). And I was certainly psychologically addicted. Obsessed with drinking. My hobby which became a pretty bad habit with some sad results.

The reason I mentioned casual/ moderate drinking was that I am probably not completely convinced in my mind that I am certainly an alcoholic who can never, ever touch a drink again on any circumstances. I know of course that probably most if not all real alcoholics have wondered precisely this, and perhaps yourself might well be included on that list.

I remember my father once told me he'd found out 'he could drink some and handle it'. That certainly ended up being false. I don't know if I'm as bad as him. I don't want to lie to myself, but I honestly don't know if I'm that bad of an alcoholic as he was. I don't think he ever went 7 months without drinking, for example.

ScottFromWI

Comparing how "bad" your alcoholism is to someone else is really an exercise in futility. Either you are an alcoholic or you aren't, there are no "levels".

August252015

I don't love this saying either (my alcoholic mom used to say it and I cried "bullsh*t!! Just do it!") but you are missing the point and the meaning behind the phrase.

It is not about living fake-ly. Or acting for others. It is about muscle memory of the heart and soul - it is about living a good sober life, even when you don't feel like it or are uncertain if it is working. Analogy: you don't WANT to go to work, but you go anyway and do your best to be positive throughout the day. Then you go home, and you've made it right through. And you keep going back the next day, and thereafter. Does that make sense?

AA- and IMO all good recovery programs- are about honesty; AA demands "rigorous honesty" with yourself. That doesn't mean you impose your truth on others, or just express your "honesty" willy nilly without regard for how you being so honest affects others. You learn to LIVE an authentic life, respecting others in the world; you cannot affect their actions, emotions, thoughts or reactions. You can control yours.

"Fake it til you make it" is meant as encouragement- when you think you can't stay sober, you do it anyway. You shut the voice in your head. You go to a meeting or you call someone who can support you. You go for a run. You make dinner. You get through it, and keep going, even when you don't want to (you'd much rather drink on a patio on a nice day) ....

A lot of "AA, huh?" things are also tenets that apply to people not participating in the program, when you stop and think about or choose to study them.

Loekken

It certainly makes sense and I get the point. The things you mention about honesty and the AA program I feel I knew already though about myself. Honesty comes to me easily when I don't drink. And I easily see a lot of fakery around me (but that's another story, maybe).

It's a bout self control really, isn't it. Alcohol is a drug and like any other drug you become addicted when you abuse it.

Regardless, sobriety is a major challenge when you've had an abusive habit for a decade or more. And things don't just fall into place. You want to be liked, respected, loved, commended, etc. for your effort, to (finally) have success in life but it takes years to (possibly) regain I'm painfully aware. I suppose it's here some really need some type of stringent and disciplined 'recovery plan', or they will relapse.

Loekken

Some are worse drinkers than others, though. I just don't see it as either/or. Some are heavy drinkers most of their life yet they have a great and successful life.

ScottFromWI

Self control certainly has something to do with it, but not necessarily regaining it. I truly believe that the real key to obtaining long term sobriety is ACCEPTING that you don't have self-control when it comes to addiction, and that you will NEVER be able to regain it. That of course does not mean that you have no self control in your life in general. But it does mean accepting that if you do choose to start drinking or using again ( you do have control over that ) - that eventually you'll lose control of your consumption and end up binging/overusing.

To me it also means accepting that there is no answer to WHY I am this way. I drank alcoholically for nearly 3 decades and tried for years to figure out why I was the way I am. But in the end, what I was really trying to do was figure out how to CHANGE myself so I could drink "normally". And that will never happen.

You are also correct that the stage you are at now is why a lot of people need a very structured recovery plan. Early sobriety is the time that people think - "Hey - I wasn't as bad of a drinker as that guy". Or "I can probably just have a few". And sometimes you can have just a few the first time...but then its 4 and 5 and 12 and soon you're right back where you started.

ScottFromWI

You are correct, everyone is different. And only YOU can determine if your drinking is causing enough problems for you to quit. "Success" is also a very subjective term. Someone may seem "successful" on the surface by having a good job or many material things, but on the inside they may be very distraught. I never lost my job or my family and quite frankly most people I know really have no idea that I am an alcoholic.

KAD

Define "very." If withdrawals became intolerable and you've had to seek help detoxing more times than you can recall, in my untrained opinion, I'd say that develops a pretty solid case for alcohol dependence.

Examine why this is so important to you. Why should it matter so much to you whether or not you can drink alcohol again? Ask yourself, honestly, what it is you expect to gain from it. We have already established similarities between our drinking histories. In the end, you're free to make whatever choices you want to make. You sound very much like I once sounded, especially when I was your age, almost 17 years ago. I would not want to see anyone go down the road I traveled. I feel very fortunate to have made it out alive.

Loekken

I'd say bad withdrawals were avoided in my case because all these detoxes happened at the tail of crazy binges - people around me made sure to get me in professional care and medicated. I might have had DT's and so on if not for that, I don't know. But yeah, I'm not trying to deny I got terribly hooked or anything. The last couple years I ended up drinking until I simply couldn't take care of myself and my life was in danger. Never happened before until these last couple years. It happened after we had our child, not that I would say that made a difference in terms of drink, but it might have in my weak mind at the time.

I don't know why I'd think drinking would benefit me again. All odds are against it doing me any good in the long run. I'd say I'm still very much thinking alcoholically and have the AV telling me stuff. And looking for an escape, as I talked about earlier in the thread. I'm currently very much at a point in my life where I feel I have lost, that I am defeated. So it's defeatism in a sense.

I want to have a good life, I want to see my son grow up happily. I want my ex to be happy, whatever that means for her at this point. I love them very much. But I am absolutely puzzled as to what I should do with myself. I'm depressed, in despair, lost for words and thoughts ever so often. I thought I was supposed to have a nice life but sobering up I look around and find myself lonely and broken inside.

Sorry for the whining just writing out how I feel. I think my 'real life friends' and family are waiting for me to sort myself out but to me they just don't know my world and what I'm really struggling with. Which - again - puts me in a lonely place. I was always an introvert guy but this is getting very strange and I don't feel comfortable about the future at all.

KAD

I know those feelings very well, and I know how suffocating they can be. I also know that the ultimate escape I sought, over and over again, did just about everything possible to compound and magnify those feelings, and create a whole new batch of problems in the meantime. Heaped on top of all the stuff that was weighing me down already, were the deleterious effects of chronic alcohol abuse, both physical and mental. The "escape" just became a more complicated trap.

You already know what I am doing to maintain my sobriety and deal with feelings like this. As I've said before, it isn't the only way, but it is a way. Am I still tormented with some of these same feelings? Pretty much every day - progress not perfection - but I now have ways not to escape, but accept them. The Prayer of Serenity really is the best we can ask for... serenity to accept what we cannot change, courage to change what we can, and wisdom to know the difference. No matter what your beliefs on religion, spirituality, or whatever, I believe those are some of the simplest, but wisest words ever written.

Loekken

These are wise words and certainly some I will try to adapt into my own patterns of thought and consideration as I go along.

I wanted to say that I am truly happy for you that you have managed to turn your life around like you tell about. My old man was your age when he passed away because he never managed to turn things around. When I look at it now, he still had so much to possibly live for when he died - an improved relationship to me, his health was not yet irreversibly damaged by drink. And he could have enjoyed having a grandson, for example. He could still get work too, etc. Shows that it's not too late to change even though it might very well feel like it at some specific point in time.

But some get too lost in addiction, mental impairment or depression. My (now ex) father in law is the same. He had a good family life and very successful career, lots of friends/ respect etc., well off financially, everything. He retired at 50 a decade ago and became an alcoholic, simply. It is such a tragic story with him and very sad to see him end his life in this way and just fade into utter demise. Everybody has just all but turned his back on him now, he lives alone and completely lost in deep addiction. He will just die and nobody hardly pays attention to him anymore. Shocking, really.

KAD

You have a much clearer vision of what awaits you at the bottom of a bottle if you go back to drinking than I did at your age. At 34, I hadn't yet met with any serious consequences from drinking. I wasn't physiologically dependent yet. I didn't personally know anyone who suffered and/or died from alcoholism. I'd seen movies and heard stories, encountered "winos" now and then, but I was much too smart to ever get that bad. I had this under control.

You, though, have already been deeply impacted, not only from personal experience, but that of others, as well. At 34, no one ever told me the kinds of things I'm telling you now. There were some websites around similar to this one, but I wasn't open to much of what they were telling me. I was terminally unique. My situation was different from everyone else's, so their advice just didn't apply to me. You're getting much more attention and good advice here than I ever did at that point in my life. I hope it's making a difference.

Loekken

Yeah, I can sense that. I just basically decided to use this site a bit for now since I don't really accept much 'real life treatment' as such. I have a personal meeting every fortnight or so with my 'sponsor' who's a professional alcohol treatment person. The next is coming up in a while and it's fine but mostly a chit-chat as I experience it for some time now. It's fine but nothing great. I have of course considered if I should get more and my mother for example says she will sponsor me a psychologist if I want. I would actually like that, I think. For now it really helps me going to work, I was there today again. It's at a dairy, I do different mostly manual tasks and it's okay. Today is better than yesterday generally speaking, my mood is very up and down these days. I feel bipolar, lol, no not really, kidding.

But yes, I have certainly had alcoholism up and personally close in different ways. individually and seen a lot of it, my father, father in law, other alcoholics and drug addicts too. Last year was terrible, I was hanging around drunks and junkies on the street, I even got robbed by heroin addicts, things were getting way out of hand and dangerous. Once last summer I slept on the street and had all my belongings stolen. I was in drunk fights too on the streets, bars and all kinds of ****** up places. All this scared the **** out of me, honestly, never believed I could go there in life because I was never even that type of guy, it was just nuts.

GratefulJunkie

As far as moderate drinking....I was first introduced to AA and the idea that I was alcoholic when I was 18. After blacking out, wrecking my truck and putting two ppl in the hospital. I couldn't accept that idea, bcuz although I wrecked my truck, my life was not as bad as some of the ppl I heard talk at AA. I decided I could handle my drink. So I went back out. 360 days later I got arrested for another DUI w/ a .26 BAC. ( .08 is legal limit in America, if you're 21+ ). Again I went to AA, and decided I could handle myself and drinking as long as I didn't drive. My drinking progressed to drugs and a very expensive alcohol problem. To support it, I dealt drugs. Three years later, my house was raided by SWAT. So back to AA I went. This time I listened, I realized and accepted I was alcoholic. But I didn't buy into the program they offered. I was too smart for it, and thought I was being naive if I believed in a 'power greater than myself'. So I went back out. This time alcohol started to destroy me quickly. I was cheating on my wife, I was destroying friendships, etc etc....so my alcoholic mind told me, I can stop drinking. I can manage it. But to do so, I need something else. That's when I started IV heroin use. 5 years of heroin, a couple wrecks, a run in with the DEA, health issues that almost killed me ( nearly lost a leg. Doctors wanted to amputate ) etc etc etc...and I still thought everything was okay, because I wasn't DRINKING. Anyways, heroin is where my alcoholism led me. And now when I go to meetings, instead of looking at my life as 'not as bad as THAT guys, or THAT lady's' I look at others and see either....where I'm headed if I go back out again....or somebody who can hear my story and hopefully avoid the same misery. But it's up to you to decide if you're an alcoholic. Alcoholism is an obsession of the mind and a physical allergy of the body. I would speculate that you ARE alcoholic....but that's yours to answer. However, going back out to prove it to yourself isn't the best route. Talk to other alcoholics and see if the way they think, the things they've done, match your own experience. Just don't COMPARE stories. Look at the causes etc...There's always somebody with a crazier story, harder life, worse consequences. That's not an excuse to label ourselves non-alcoholic.

GratefulJunkie

I guess in saying all that, I lost track of my point.....I never thought I would go the places I went, or do the things I did either. I've never been that type of guy. But this disease doesn't care who we think we are. It wants us dead. And it tries to convince us we don't have the disease at all.