KAD

You sound very much like I did up until about a year and a half ago. In fact, there may even still be some of my old posts floating around SR that reflect similar sentiments. I don't know if I was looking for answers, or just validation to drink again. If no one was coming up with something fresh and new, some idea I hadn't heard of or tried before, then I was gonna do what I'd already made up my mind was inevitable. There is some truth to the notion that so long as I had already started drinking again "in my head," It was probable that I would eventually make it a reality.

For almost all my 28 years of active alcoholism, I despised AA. I, too, called it a cult. I was an atheist/agnostic for 30 years, so the whole "God thing" was all I felt necessary to discard the whole idea. Some years back an alcoholic friend of mine - used to be a drinking buddy - told me he was going to send me a Big Book and some other AA literature. I warned him that I wanted no part of it and I would throw away anything he sent pertaining to it. Sure enough, he mailed a brand new, leather-bound Big Book to me. Within one minute, I tossed it into the trash. I reveled in the idea of it rotting in a landfill, as I turned up my bottle of vodka.

I'm not going to attempt to proselytize or get into theological discussions here. For one, I don't feel equipped to do a very good job of it and, two, I don't think I'd be able to talk anyone into experiencing the same thing(s) I did. It's a very personal experience. I didn't "have" to go on drinking until I lost nearly everything, but it did result in stifling my arrogance to a large degree. It did teach me that maybe I wasn't so smart after all. It taught me that maybe I should try being a bit more humble. I had tried numerous ways to achieve lasting sobriety but, suddenly, this atheist/agnostic didn't want to continue attempting to do it anymore through self-reliance alone. I did come to be willing to believe in God, and through that willingness, developed an understanding, and a thirst for more, that I'd never experienced before.

Have all my problems been solved as a result of working the 12 steps? Of course not. Has it given me lasting peace and serenity? No, not always. But I have found more of that than I ever had in the past. I now know A way to achieve it, and can come back to it when I get "lost in the weeds." I never had that in the past. I had precious little to prevent me from picking up the bottle again, because, in the end, I couldn't come up with good enough reasons not to do it. I don't want to see anyone make the same mistakes I did. I hope you are seeking help because you genuinely want to stay sober, not looking for reasons you can't, or won't, and thus taking the full weight of failing to do so on your shoulders because you don't have the willpower to do it all on your own. I would ask you to consider that maybe you don't, and that's the whole point.

KeyofC

So sorry that should say "sick person trying to get good"..auto correct at it's finest yet again...lots of typos there.

KeyofC

Awesome message @ Getmeout

Loekken

If you did indeed find help in God, then all power to you. I know I won't - it would be another way of pretending to get well for me. As I see it, I'm in this alone ultimately. Yes, there are ways to reach out, get support, etc. and that's nice. But there are times when the door shuts and you find yourself alone. That's where your true colors show. Sobriety or not? I do really feel this way about it, whether you guys think I'm cynical or arrogant, I don't care about that. I'm never going to do 12 steps, read a 'Big Book/ Bible for drunks' and feel this is my way to redemption, because that's not how I live my life. I'm responsible for my own actions and don't need anybody to guide me to my destiny. So when I seek help, I seek advise, feedback, just wondering how other people view all this. I'm certainly not looking for anyone to tell me to live my life by some set of rules, or whatever. If it works for a lot of you guys with AA and so on, and you feel genuinely to have improved your lives with it, then that's great. Maybe I will see 'the light' one day and my whole attitude will change. I doubt it, though.

KeyofC

Nah, you can do it alone if that's what you choose to do. Everyone is different in how they approach things or see things. I hope you find something that works for you. I hope you hang in there. Like you said, who knows maybe one day it'll just click and you will see the light. Much luck to ya!

KAD

As KeyofC said, I also wish you the absolute best. I also hope you know anything I've said only reflects my personal experience and what is working for me. I still struggle with doubts - can't be an atheist for 30 years and not still have lingering questions - but came to the conclusion that I could either drink myself to death while waiting and looking for different answers, or I could just accept that maybe I still had a lot to learn and should spend more time listening to, and observing, those who are making it. Ironically, one of my daily readings today said, "When you do all the talking, you only learn what you already know." I'm not suggesting that fits you, but it was definitely me. Best of luck to you.

Dee74

As long as you're sober and you're happy about that, you've grasped the HolyGrail of recovery.

You don;t sound very happy to me tho Starlight? It seems like your sobriety right now is imposed on you and that's not a tenable long term solution.

I'm not saying you or anyone else has to go to AA, but I think we need to be open to the idea that when we stop drinking our life, and our mindset need to change too?

D

GratefulJunkie

Just going to throw a couple things out there....as far as saying AA is religious, so it wouldn't work for you....it's not RELIGIOUS. It's spiritual. And to assume the two are the same is to be ignorant. Also...to say you KNOW it wouldn't work for you, without even trying, is like saying I know I couldn't ride a bike, without ever even sitting on a bike. It's just an excuse. A way to stay miserable, so that when you are finally able to drink again, you can justify it to yourself. Because you already 'knew' there was nothing that can help you. Right? I'm not trying to be a dick....but fact is, if you wanna keep drinking, then keep drinking! If you don't think you're alcoholic, then go back out and get ya some more! But if you WANT help, you HAVE to be willing to try new things. As recovered ( recovering ) alcoholics, our program includes carrying the message to still suffering alcoholics. Which many many ppl have tried to do here. But it's starting to seem like you're just waiting for somebody to tell you how it's ok to feel so ******. Throw you a pity party. And in my experience...when I've been in that mindset...it's cuz I just don't wanna stop. That's what it boils down to. So if you don't WANT to stop, then get back out there and see how it goes. More than likely you'll be back. But by telling you the same stuff over and over again, just so you can say 'we don't understand your situation' or 'that **** won't work for me' means that all the ppl trying to carry the message to you, might be missing 1,2,3 other ppl who really DO want to make changes and recieve positive advice/feedback. But if you're UNWILLING to open your mind a lil and get over your own ego or thinking that you already KNOW something, then stop wasting your time! Get back out there. OR just keep asserting your will 'power' and see how that goes. "Sick 'em Will". ( sorry to be brash, or rude. But holy ****. What else do you want to hear? This is a recovery forum, not a pity party ) you gotta decide for yourself. And if you want life to get better, then take some ACTION. You're a grown ass man. And it's ultimately up to you!

Loekken

So if religious and spiritual are not two sides of the same coin, then what is it? The brief encounters I've had with AA, or programs based on AA 'philosophy', it mentions 'God'... that you should find 'God'. I was never really religious, so it just put me off.

I mentioned that I have indeed tried AA/similar (just not specifically attended AA meetings), so it's not as if I didn't leave it as an option, ever in my life. As I said, I was put off by it, as it seemed cult like.

I'm all ears when it comes to whatever 'message' people here try to get across - but do allow me to be cautious in terms of buying some product or Big Book suggesting how I should live my life or what I should do with myself.

Not looking for anybody to throw a pity party. I mentioned in my opening post that I have (psychological) cravings and asked for advise/feedback on this specifically, from people in a similar situation or from somebody with a comparable length of sobriety and ongoing. At least one poster could totally identify with that.

Berrybean

I think everyone here identifies with cravings. The reason people have been saying about making a plan, is because it's through working whatever plan we put together that we manage to deal with those cravings, protect ourselves from them as much as possible, and become confident in sitting with them without being their puppet when they do come up. Diffrent people put different things on their plans. For me, being in AA, my plan probably looks somewhat diffrent from Dee's. The link to Dee's thread about making a plan is a good one because it touches lots of bases and encompasses a good range of ideas.

HALT is always big on my plan. (HUNGER-ANGER-LONELY-TIRED). My plan needs to include daily strategies to avoid those things. It also needs contingency plans of what to do if those things pop up, because I know that if two or more are present then it WILL affect the quality of my sobriety. Maybe not resulting in a crave, but maybe so. My general plan covers how I'll avoid or deal with those HALT triggers on a normal day, if I'm doing something out of the ordinary I prepare for it by thinking around HALT, including exit strategies and the like.

Also big on my plan, especially in the first year were 'slippery' people and places. Some I could avoid, others I just needed to prepare for well, thinking HALT again, and having clear boundaries and exit strategies.

As an AAer, I would do other things, which non-AA people might or might not do:
Pray
Meditate
Contact my sponsor or an AA friend
Get to a meeting asap (a good strong one that is recovery focussed and has people there with healthy sobriety).
Read the Big Book
Help someone else
Do a gratitude list

A lot of the things on the list you might do an eyeroll at, just as I did when they were first suggested to me. That's fine. I know where your coming from because I didn't see how any of those things would help either. In the end I wanted my sponsor off my back do I did them partly out of desperation and partly to shut her up. And I found that they worked. So I still do them. Probably I could get away with cutting out one or two of the things on that list, but I don't KNOW that, and I certainly don't know which ones I could cut out. And I'm enjoying not being anxious, depressed, angry, resentful, dishonest, paranoid and delusional, so I think I'll just keep on with what's working for me just now.

But like I say. Different people. Different plans. And the reason we keep harking on about plan when you mention cravings, is because our plans are how we safeguard against and deal with cravings.

I hope you find some peace soon.

KeyofC

Oh yes, the cravings can ge so tremendous that my mouth would water and I would fantasize about drinking, but I didn't. I took it one second at a time if that's what I had to do and that had nothing to do with AA. I've not been to AA for my help. Like I said I use lots of things for my sobriety, some of AA literature and things do help me. The physical and mental aspect of the cravings are what you're fighting, that's what is so difficult. That's the alcoholic voice people talk about.

Loekken

I like this part as you describe it and I might give the other thread you refer to another look too. I didn't use this forum extensively in any way so far and just decided to create this thread because I thought I'd been sober for a while, anyway, and never felt someone ever told me something truly useful, or something I never went over in my own head, before.

What I have learned so far, though, is that talking to other addicts is the best treatment available. My current 'sponsor' is a professional working with alcoholics, but she isn't an addict herself and with all due respect, I don't feel like she can truly relate to my world. I would like to see a psychologist again though, maybe I should reconsider that.

But again, talking to another alcoholic is the best. I was at one treatment place a few years back, where I ran away before hardly being detoxed (yes, to drink again) - but I actually really liked the staff there because I felt they know what the hell they were dealing with. They were all sober alcoholics for many years.

I like this HALT thing you mention, and the contingency plans you mention, maybe I should come up with a similar scheme, or do more research in that field.

Dee74

plans link:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ery-plans.html

KAD

I can relate to that. I had an addictions counselor for several years, but she had no personal experience with addiction. It's not always necessary, but I do feel it helps to speak to someone who understands what it's like to be addicted. In talking to "normies," I've found that lack of a basic understanding to be the biggest hurdle of all.

It's difficult, if not impossible, for me to talk about my own experiences with addiction without revealing a personal bias toward what is working for me. I never thought it would be AA, but it has turned out to be the only thing that is working, consistently. There are many other methods available. I don't know if you've explored them. At one time, I used AVRT. I think what I'm doing now is still influenced by that to some extent, but if you're looking for something that doesn't have a religious, or spiritual, focus, there's that. There is also SMART , Lifering, CBT, among others. Some people here use SR exclusively as their chosen way to maintain sobriety. I understand there is also the new method of combining counseling and/or group therapy in conjunction with Naltrexone to curb cravings. I briefly tried Naltrexone years ago but stopped because of some very bothersome side effects.

I hope you find what it is you're looking for. As Dee pointed out, recovery from addiction should include at least some modicum of success and happiness. You don't seem to be experiencing either. It seems like your addiction is lurking in the shadows, waiting for certain conditions - living on your own with a steady income - to be met, and you seem resigned to surrender to it. I would never suggest you go out and try drinking again. That choice could be your last. I don't like to see anyone suffering from addiction, and certainly hate hearing when anyone loses the fight permanently.

Loekken

You're right on target here.

KAD

The following is from a post of mine from 12/27/2014.

"I live a very boring, mundane life in spite of burning passion inside. I wanna live an exciting life but don't know quite know how. The most exciting thing to me right now is my 12 gauge in my closet. Seriously. I'm not Curt K0bain."

I was blind drunk at the time, which should be obvious. I was saying and doing crazy things in blackouts. Within that same thread, some of the things I said are lost, as they were apparently censored. They might have even been censored by me. I don't remember. The week after that, I took my children on a trip to the beach, which was about a 3 hours drive away. I only remember bits and pieces of it. I do remember driving in excess of 100mph for much of the trip home. I remember the week after that, admitting to my kids, my ex, and her new husband that I'm an alcoholic. I went away to detox and rehab for a little over a month. When I returned, I managed to stay sober about a month and a half. When I relapsed, I lost my job. The next day, I totaled my car and broke my neck. I don't remember anything about the wreck. One moment I was driving, the next I was on my back in the hospital and wearing a neck brace. The worst outcome of all was losing all contact with my children, which I am still trying to regain to this day.

These are the sorts of things that await you if you give in to your addiction again. Or it could be much worse. I can't say I'm not trying to frighten you because I hope it scares the hell out of you! You well know this is nothing to play around with. On the outside looking in, it looks like a big party going on in there, but on the inside looking out, you'll soon be desperate to leave, to escape with your life. There's nothing waiting for you there that you don't already know, but I can pretty much guarantee you that it will be worse than it was before. I believe you are here now because, deep down inside, you know it's a very bad idea to drink again. If you weren't afraid of it, you wouldn't care what anyone here has to say about it. I think you're simultaneously looking for justification to do it again, and someone or something to stop you.

Loekken

I wouldn't say I'm looking for justification to pick up a drink again, because it shouldn't really be justified in my book, just as I still don't believe it should be for anyone to judge me if I indeed do drink again. I know my parents and probably ex will judge me hard if I do, likely other people as well.

I told my ex that the only thing that could keep me sober (probably) was if I could win her back and the family we started as we have a 4 year old boy. This is how I feel. I know it's sad. I can very well feel that my life is improving the longer I stay sober, and that sobriety is the only option if I want to keep improving, but I just don't know if I can do it. Not that I don't want to, but I don't know if I can. Yes, I can stay sober, probably for long too, but the problems go deeper than that and I know I will probably have to struggle with them for the rest of my life.

I had this idea in my head that as long as I remained sober for a longer period, things would fall into place and I would begin to feel genuinely better about everything. But it's just not happening and I carry so much regret, bitterness and anger that it just takes away my will - to remain dry. So I'm weak, and I admit to that. I would say my kid keeps me sober at the moment, that's about it. I don't care much anymore for the world or the rest of the people in it. This sounds like something I would write while drunk. But it's what I've really come to feel about it all and the alcoholic voice tells me to just escape it all again.

Berrybean

That's what regret, bitterness and anger do, which is why those 12-steps were important for me. I needed to move past those things. Like I said earlier, I am now enjoying not being anxious, depressed, angry, resentful, dishonest, paranoid and delusional. It wasn't always that way, and I'd say the the height of all those things came for me at around six or seven months into sobriety. I don't know if that was a PAWS thing, or if it just took that long for things to build up until I couldn't stand it any more, but there it is. I woke up every morning wishing I hadn't and went to bed every night praying that I could just die in my sleep. I hope I never never have to go back to that place.

JeffreyAK

There are lots of alternatives to AA - if it's not a good fit, and you already know that, for whatever reasons, there are plenty of options. What you might not find so easily, depending on where you live, are non-AA face to face meetings (other than medical treatment groups, and some of those are 12-step-based too), and of the secular groups SMART probably has the most local face to face meetings.

KAD

That's what it tells, or told, all of us. In recovery parlance, at one time or another we all suffer from terminal uniqueness. No one else has it quite like we do, but what it comes down to is the desire to escape a reality we don't want to face because we don't feel equipped to deal with life on life's terms. But our chosen addictions don't offer any escape at all. Habitually numbing ourselves only traps us in new and bigger problems. We become enslaved. All the real life stuff suffers as a result of the unreality we seek in drugs and/or alcohol.

You already understand that you can't hinge your sobriety on anyone or anything else but yourself. That may work for a time - I once stayed sober for 2 years when my wife threatened to take our child (had one at the time) and leave me - but I think you already know it won't last. It sounds like you are suffering from depression, and it's likely you already know that alcohol only exacerbates that. Any escape it provides is short-lived, and soon replaced with an even more intense state of anxiety, depression, desperation, and hopelessness. I remember never being able to sleep more than a couple hours at a time, waking up to drink more, and walking the floors in the dead of night, trying to talk myself out of killing myself or losing my mind.

The time has come when you've got to make a choice. Are you going to take the necessary action to get the help you need to face life on life's terms, or are you going to willfully slip back into the slow death and destruction of addiction again? If you choose the latter, you can be of no good to yourself, much less anyone else. It's that simple.