The courts and violating traditions
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. Anyone.... anyone at all can attend an AA meeting.
We have no idea who will or who will not hear the message or who will or will not come back to AA with a desire to stop drinking.
AA = unity....service.... recovery.
We have a solution here in the halls of AA.......and trying to run the show, the AA group, the courts or the people they send or just about anything else that we have no control over...... isn't it.
The choice that I am going to exercise at this moment..... is to take myself out of where ever this thread is headed. Its beginning to feel like we are beating a dead horse. LOL
Best of luck at your AA group business meeting
Love
Patsy
We have no idea who will or who will not hear the message or who will or will not come back to AA with a desire to stop drinking.
AA = unity....service.... recovery.
We have a solution here in the halls of AA.......and trying to run the show, the AA group, the courts or the people they send or just about anything else that we have no control over...... isn't it.
The choice that I am going to exercise at this moment..... is to take myself out of where ever this thread is headed. Its beginning to feel like we are beating a dead horse. LOL
Best of luck at your AA group business meeting
Love
Patsy
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Aiea, HI
Posts: 23
Originally posted by Patsyd1
The choice that I am going to exercise at this moment..... is to take myself out of where ever this thread is headed. Its beginning to feel like we are beating a dead horse. LOL
The choice that I am going to exercise at this moment..... is to take myself out of where ever this thread is headed. Its beginning to feel like we are beating a dead horse. LOL
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
You all might find this interesting, especially the part about strategies the group can use.
http://www.na.org/bull31.htm
http://www.na.org/bull31.htm
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Others might find this interesting as well.
A letter from a group.. handed out to those requesting court card signatures to be returned to the judge, P.O., etc.....,,,,,,
To Whom It May Concern:
In keeping with the Third, Sixth, Tenth and Twelfth Traditions of Narcotics Anonymous, our group will not sign court cards or any other type of attendance slip, or participate in any way of keeping records or documentation of any kind regarding who attends or has attended an NA meeting.
We cannot verify attendance at an NA meeting in any way, for anyone.
Our traditions clearly state the importance of non-affiliation with outside institutions. We fully support parolee/probated/court ordered addicts being allowed to attend NA meetings, but in the parolee's (etc.) eyes, signing attendance slips of any kind link Narcotics Anonymous with judicial and correctional authorities.
This does not allow for the trust that works when one addict helps another. We feel that any requirement which places us in a position to be viewed by attendees as authority figures, or holding affiliation with an authority group, negates our attempts to offer anonymity to parolees or probationers attending meetings. Forcing addicts on court order to seek out a signature verifying meeting attendance might put them unduly in the spotlight and feeling anything but anonymous.
In addition, being an anonymous program means that one is not required to use one's name if they don't want to, yet by giving a court slip to a group representative to sign, that person would have to see the persons name and even verify through identification that it is the correct person. This also puts the signer in the position of giving up their own anonymity.
In order to maintain the anonymity of those in attendance, we cannot sign attendance slips.
Narcotics Anonymous, in our various publications makes the following points;
*We keep no attendance records
*We are not affiliated with any other organizations
*We are not connected with any law enforcement groups
*We are under no surveillance at any time
*We feel totally free to express ourselves in the fellowship because no law enforcement agencies are involved
*We feel the ideal state for our fellowship exists when addicts can come freely and openly to an N.A. meeting, whenever and wherever they choose, and leave just as freely if they want.
We feel sure that you can see how asking Narcotics Anonymous or a representative of Narcotics Anonymous to participate in any method of attendance verification is in direct conflict with the principles of our program.
Many addicts have credited professionals such as you, for directing them to NA. Within the Department of Corrections and the Judicial System, we know that you work with many addicted individuals. We hope that we can come to a mutual understanding that is beneficial to these individuals, your endeavor, and Narcotics Anonymous. In light of this, we request a meeting with you so that we may address this issue.
Please contact our local Public Information Chairperson for the Nassau Area by calling 516-xxx-xxxx
or Email: [email protected]
For more information on Narcotics Anonymous, please visit our web site www.na.org
A letter from a group.. handed out to those requesting court card signatures to be returned to the judge, P.O., etc.....,,,,,,
To Whom It May Concern:
In keeping with the Third, Sixth, Tenth and Twelfth Traditions of Narcotics Anonymous, our group will not sign court cards or any other type of attendance slip, or participate in any way of keeping records or documentation of any kind regarding who attends or has attended an NA meeting.
We cannot verify attendance at an NA meeting in any way, for anyone.
Our traditions clearly state the importance of non-affiliation with outside institutions. We fully support parolee/probated/court ordered addicts being allowed to attend NA meetings, but in the parolee's (etc.) eyes, signing attendance slips of any kind link Narcotics Anonymous with judicial and correctional authorities.
This does not allow for the trust that works when one addict helps another. We feel that any requirement which places us in a position to be viewed by attendees as authority figures, or holding affiliation with an authority group, negates our attempts to offer anonymity to parolees or probationers attending meetings. Forcing addicts on court order to seek out a signature verifying meeting attendance might put them unduly in the spotlight and feeling anything but anonymous.
In addition, being an anonymous program means that one is not required to use one's name if they don't want to, yet by giving a court slip to a group representative to sign, that person would have to see the persons name and even verify through identification that it is the correct person. This also puts the signer in the position of giving up their own anonymity.
In order to maintain the anonymity of those in attendance, we cannot sign attendance slips.
Narcotics Anonymous, in our various publications makes the following points;
*We keep no attendance records
*We are not affiliated with any other organizations
*We are not connected with any law enforcement groups
*We are under no surveillance at any time
*We feel totally free to express ourselves in the fellowship because no law enforcement agencies are involved
*We feel the ideal state for our fellowship exists when addicts can come freely and openly to an N.A. meeting, whenever and wherever they choose, and leave just as freely if they want.
We feel sure that you can see how asking Narcotics Anonymous or a representative of Narcotics Anonymous to participate in any method of attendance verification is in direct conflict with the principles of our program.
Many addicts have credited professionals such as you, for directing them to NA. Within the Department of Corrections and the Judicial System, we know that you work with many addicted individuals. We hope that we can come to a mutual understanding that is beneficial to these individuals, your endeavor, and Narcotics Anonymous. In light of this, we request a meeting with you so that we may address this issue.
Please contact our local Public Information Chairperson for the Nassau Area by calling 516-xxx-xxxx
or Email: [email protected]
For more information on Narcotics Anonymous, please visit our web site www.na.org
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Hi Recoveree,
Well that letter would be nice, except for a few flaws LOL
The only ones who can break our traditions is US. We do not speak for NA as an individual group or member.
And by setting up this appt to discuss anything IS breaking our Traditions, our own anonymity, and speaking for NA as a whole.
All that is required is to initial the slip.....no one needs to put their full name on anything.
The best place to address whether our traditions are being broken is at our own group business meeting. And all we need to do is vote that this ONE group does not sign slips....thats it.
To set up a meeting with any outside organization for the purpose of speaking for NA..... is breaking our own traditions. No law inforcement agency can break our traditions, the only one who can do that is US......... we are members of NA when we say we are, and that doesn't give any of us as individual or as an NA group to speak for AA or NA as a whole.
We are not affliated with any organization........ and to write this letter and/or set up a meeting with an outside organization....... is breaking our own traditions.
"A letter from a group.. handed out to those requesting court card signatures to be returned to the judge, P.O., etc.."
A simple NA business meeting would have taken care of any concerns regarding the signing of court ordered slips. To hand a letter to anyone to take back to the courts or their PO..... is to speak for NA as a whole..... and we do not speak for NA as a whole. Each NA group is autonymous..... and a group conscience is taken in matters that effect that indivdiual group.
The courts and what they do or do not do..... is an outside issue and when we give our opinions on outside issues as NA or AA members THAT can effect not only our own group, but also neighboring AA or NA groups and NA as a whole.
Tradition 2.... For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
Love
Patsy
Well that letter would be nice, except for a few flaws LOL
The only ones who can break our traditions is US. We do not speak for NA as an individual group or member.
And by setting up this appt to discuss anything IS breaking our Traditions, our own anonymity, and speaking for NA as a whole.
All that is required is to initial the slip.....no one needs to put their full name on anything.
The best place to address whether our traditions are being broken is at our own group business meeting. And all we need to do is vote that this ONE group does not sign slips....thats it.
To set up a meeting with any outside organization for the purpose of speaking for NA..... is breaking our own traditions. No law inforcement agency can break our traditions, the only one who can do that is US......... we are members of NA when we say we are, and that doesn't give any of us as individual or as an NA group to speak for AA or NA as a whole.
We are not affliated with any organization........ and to write this letter and/or set up a meeting with an outside organization....... is breaking our own traditions.
"A letter from a group.. handed out to those requesting court card signatures to be returned to the judge, P.O., etc.."
A simple NA business meeting would have taken care of any concerns regarding the signing of court ordered slips. To hand a letter to anyone to take back to the courts or their PO..... is to speak for NA as a whole..... and we do not speak for NA as a whole. Each NA group is autonymous..... and a group conscience is taken in matters that effect that indivdiual group.
The courts and what they do or do not do..... is an outside issue and when we give our opinions on outside issues as NA or AA members THAT can effect not only our own group, but also neighboring AA or NA groups and NA as a whole.
Tradition 2.... For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
Love
Patsy
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Aiea, HI
Posts: 23
First line of letter -
"In keeping with the Third, Sixth, Tenth and Twelfth Traditions of Narcotics Anonymous, our group will not sign court cards or any other type of attendance slip, or participate in any way of keeping records or documentation of any kind regarding who attends or has attended an NA meeting."
I don't see how that can be construed as speaking for the fellowship as a whole. I do believe that such a letter would be a waste of time and energy. A simple announcement from the chair, at the start of the meeting, that the group doesn't sign papers is sufficient. No further explanation is necessary.
"In keeping with the Third, Sixth, Tenth and Twelfth Traditions of Narcotics Anonymous, our group will not sign court cards or any other type of attendance slip, or participate in any way of keeping records or documentation of any kind regarding who attends or has attended an NA meeting."
I don't see how that can be construed as speaking for the fellowship as a whole. I do believe that such a letter would be a waste of time and energy. A simple announcement from the chair, at the start of the meeting, that the group doesn't sign papers is sufficient. No further explanation is necessary.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
We feel sure that you can see how asking Narcotics Anonymous or a representative of Narcotics Anonymous to participate in any method of attendance verification is in direct conflict with the principles of our program.
Many addicts have credited professionals such as you, for directing them to NA. Within the Department of Corrections and the Judicial System, we know that you work with many addicted individuals. We hope that we can come to a mutual understanding that is beneficial to these individuals, your endeavor, and Narcotics Anonymous. In light of this, we request a meeting with you so that we may address this issue.
Many addicts have credited professionals such as you, for directing them to NA. Within the Department of Corrections and the Judicial System, we know that you work with many addicted individuals. We hope that we can come to a mutual understanding that is beneficial to these individuals, your endeavor, and Narcotics Anonymous. In light of this, we request a meeting with you so that we may address this issue.
The above in bold..... is just simply not true.
In light of this, we request a meeting with you so that we may address this issue.
If this group is sending anyone member or members to a meeting to address this issue........ that is breaking OUR TRADITIONS....... because no one member or members or one group can speak for NA as a whole.
A letter from a group.. handed out to those requesting court card signatures to be returned to the judge, P.O., etc.....,,,,,,
No single group or member of a group ought be handing out letters to ourside organizations for any reason at all, we simply do not have the right to be speaking for AA or NA as a whole. This is a direct BREAK of our Traditions.
Visit their web site, it has all the information that one needs to "adhere" to OUR traditions. In fact it states quite well how NA as a "whole" addresses these issues and our 12 Traditions.
http://www.na.org/bull31.htm
Love
Patsy
Last edited by Patsyd1; 11-04-2003 at 10:42 AM.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Aiea, HI
Posts: 23
Obviously some people (like myself), see this practice as a violation of traditions while others see it as something that should not only be done, but also encouraged. I haven't yet seen or heard anything to cause me to reevaluate my position. So I'm not going to change my mind, and I can't change anyone else's. It is good to look at both sides of the question from time to time, though.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Patsy, I am at a loss for words. I don’t know how you can read this letter and come to the conclusions that you did.
I have quoted your post in >><< followed by my response.
>>The only ones who can break our traditions is US.<<
The letter does not say any different.
>>And by setting up this appt to discuss anything IS breaking our Traditions, our own anonymity and speaking for NA as a whole.<<
Perhaps you missed the part of the letter that asks for the reader to contact the Public Information Committee, not the group or any member of the group.
I hardly think that a PI committee carrying out their mandated responsibilities on behalf of the ASC or RSC would be breaking traditions.
>>All that is required is to initial the slip.....no one needs to put their full name on anything. <<
That is not always the case. Some of the attendance cards I have seen here ask for more info than just an initial.
>>The best place to address whether our traditions are being broken is at our own group business meeting.<<
That is exactly what the group did.
>> And all we need to do is vote that this ONE group does not sign slips....thats it<<
Again, that’s exactly what this group did.
>>To set up a meeting with any outside organization for the purpose of speaking for NA..... is breaking our own traditions.<<
Absolutely wrong!! Our Public Information Committee and our Hospitals and Institution Committee do exactly that all the time.
>> No law enforcement agency can break our traditions,<<
The letter doesn’t say one can.
>>we are members of NA when we say we are, and that doesn't give any of us as individual or as an NA group to speak for AA or NA as a whole.<<
The letter is expressing the conscience of the group as it states in the first sentence what OUR GROUP will or will not do.
>>We are not affliated with any organization........ and to write this letter and/or set up a meeting with an outside organization....... is breaking our own traditions.<<
You keep repeating the same point, which is incorrect. Our PI Committee is expected to do just what you assert would be breaking traditions. I can only assume from your statements that you don’t know what PI or H&I committees do.
Besides that, meeting with an organization is not the same as affiliating with one. And actually groups and or representatives of groups can and do meet with organizations alll the time. It is called Public Information work, something you seem to not be familiar with.
Public Information is the branch of services that informs the public about recovery from the disease of addiction through the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of Narcotics Anonymous.
The PI committee members provide community awareness of what NA is, as well as how, when, and where we are available.
Cooperation with those who come in contact with addicts is important when carrying the message of NA. Without this cooperation, many addicts would never have found our fellowship. We want to work with other organizations, but we do not want to be merged with them in the mind of the public. To give the impression that we are one and the same would threaten our independence. Our aim is simply to make it known that NA is available. It may require additional effort to make clear the distinction between NA and other organizations. However, we will be rewarded as more addicts find us through other sources and our fellowship continues to grow.
>>A simple NA business meeting would have taken care of any concerns regarding the signing of court ordered slips. <<
Exactly what happened. This group’s solution was this letter.
>>To hand a letter to anyone to take back to the courts or their PO..... is to speak for NA as a whole..... and we do not speak for NA as a whole. Each NA group is autonomous..... and a group conscience is taken in matters that effect that individual group.<<
Again that is exactly what happened. This group’s solution was this letter.
You repeat yourself and again, this letter is from one group that stated in the first sentence that it is this group’s policy ….
>>The courts and what they do or do not do..... is an outside issue and when we give our opinions on outside issues as NA or AA members THAT can effect not only our own group, but also neighboring AA or NA groups and NA as a whole.<<
This letter does not offer any opinions on any outside issues on behalf of NA.
We have no recommendations for any outside organizations, nor do we participate in their politics. To do so would invite controversy which would jeopardize our fellowship's standing in the community. If we voice an opinion on any public issue, we may block the path for a new member to join our fellowship. It is critical that we remember this aspect of keeping our fellowship open to any addict who has the desire to stop using.
>>Tradition 2.... For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.<<
And for the last time...that's exactly what happened.
I have quoted your post in >><< followed by my response.
>>The only ones who can break our traditions is US.<<
The letter does not say any different.
>>And by setting up this appt to discuss anything IS breaking our Traditions, our own anonymity and speaking for NA as a whole.<<
Perhaps you missed the part of the letter that asks for the reader to contact the Public Information Committee, not the group or any member of the group.
I hardly think that a PI committee carrying out their mandated responsibilities on behalf of the ASC or RSC would be breaking traditions.
>>All that is required is to initial the slip.....no one needs to put their full name on anything. <<
That is not always the case. Some of the attendance cards I have seen here ask for more info than just an initial.
>>The best place to address whether our traditions are being broken is at our own group business meeting.<<
That is exactly what the group did.
>> And all we need to do is vote that this ONE group does not sign slips....thats it<<
Again, that’s exactly what this group did.
>>To set up a meeting with any outside organization for the purpose of speaking for NA..... is breaking our own traditions.<<
Absolutely wrong!! Our Public Information Committee and our Hospitals and Institution Committee do exactly that all the time.
>> No law enforcement agency can break our traditions,<<
The letter doesn’t say one can.
>>we are members of NA when we say we are, and that doesn't give any of us as individual or as an NA group to speak for AA or NA as a whole.<<
The letter is expressing the conscience of the group as it states in the first sentence what OUR GROUP will or will not do.
>>We are not affliated with any organization........ and to write this letter and/or set up a meeting with an outside organization....... is breaking our own traditions.<<
You keep repeating the same point, which is incorrect. Our PI Committee is expected to do just what you assert would be breaking traditions. I can only assume from your statements that you don’t know what PI or H&I committees do.
Besides that, meeting with an organization is not the same as affiliating with one. And actually groups and or representatives of groups can and do meet with organizations alll the time. It is called Public Information work, something you seem to not be familiar with.
Public Information is the branch of services that informs the public about recovery from the disease of addiction through the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of Narcotics Anonymous.
The PI committee members provide community awareness of what NA is, as well as how, when, and where we are available.
Cooperation with those who come in contact with addicts is important when carrying the message of NA. Without this cooperation, many addicts would never have found our fellowship. We want to work with other organizations, but we do not want to be merged with them in the mind of the public. To give the impression that we are one and the same would threaten our independence. Our aim is simply to make it known that NA is available. It may require additional effort to make clear the distinction between NA and other organizations. However, we will be rewarded as more addicts find us through other sources and our fellowship continues to grow.
>>A simple NA business meeting would have taken care of any concerns regarding the signing of court ordered slips. <<
Exactly what happened. This group’s solution was this letter.
>>To hand a letter to anyone to take back to the courts or their PO..... is to speak for NA as a whole..... and we do not speak for NA as a whole. Each NA group is autonomous..... and a group conscience is taken in matters that effect that individual group.<<
Again that is exactly what happened. This group’s solution was this letter.
You repeat yourself and again, this letter is from one group that stated in the first sentence that it is this group’s policy ….
>>The courts and what they do or do not do..... is an outside issue and when we give our opinions on outside issues as NA or AA members THAT can effect not only our own group, but also neighboring AA or NA groups and NA as a whole.<<
This letter does not offer any opinions on any outside issues on behalf of NA.
We have no recommendations for any outside organizations, nor do we participate in their politics. To do so would invite controversy which would jeopardize our fellowship's standing in the community. If we voice an opinion on any public issue, we may block the path for a new member to join our fellowship. It is critical that we remember this aspect of keeping our fellowship open to any addict who has the desire to stop using.
>>Tradition 2.... For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.<<
And for the last time...that's exactly what happened.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Patsy,
I am posting some news of the NA fellowship.
Maybe it will give you a clearer picture of the spirit of cooperation we talk about. Forming a relationship with an agency is not the same as affiliation and it is not breaking traditions.
This is a report on some of what NA World services has been doing as far as public relations go.
We sent a travel team to Cuba in early July 2003 to participate in the 1st Latin American Congress of Drug Addiction.
In June 2003, we sent a staff member to South Korea to participate in an addiction forum. We traveled with members from Japan to assist in efforts to start NA meetings in South Korea.
We sent a travel team to China. In the case of China, the trip came about after an invitation to participate in the first World Health Organization/Beijing Institute on Substance Abuse in Beijing, China.
AA World Services had their first opportunity to visit Beijing in 2000, and today AA has a few meetings in that city.
The NA World Board conducted the first-of-its-kind Public Relations Roundtable in April 2003 in Chatsworth, CA. The event was a prearranged gathering of seven professionals who, as members of the criminal justice sector, may direct addicts to NA as a part of their daily routine. The objective of the meeting was to gather information in order to help formulate a PR strategy. The group discussed a variety of issues pertinent to NA's image and explored ways to raise public
awareness of NA.
As a direct result of this roundtable discussion, the WB has created another public relations tool, NA in Brief. This new, single-sheet informational tool will be used at professional events and will be tailored to address specific audiences, as needed.
With this experience completed, plans have begun for the three more roundtables, one with medical professionals, one with treatment providers, and one with US governmental
agencies.
It will take a commitment from all levels of service and all parts of the fellowship to improve our image with the professional community. When we consider how many of these individuals have the opportunity to direct suffering addicts to us each day, we begin to realize the importance of this endeavor.
Might I add, this pales in comparison to the great amount of public information and public relations work that AA World services does.
Below is taken from the AA web site...
If You Are a Professional, A.A. Members Are Available to Cooperate with You
TO:
Health Care Professionals
Correctional Facilities Professionals
Treatment Facilities Professionals
Media and News Professionals
Employee Assistance Professionals
Alcoholics Anonymous has many A.A. members and service committees who are available to provide professionals with information about Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. has a long history of cooperating but not affiliating with outside organizations and being available to provide A.A. meetings or information about A.A. upon request.
Are you gonna let them know they are breaking traditions too???
I am posting some news of the NA fellowship.
Maybe it will give you a clearer picture of the spirit of cooperation we talk about. Forming a relationship with an agency is not the same as affiliation and it is not breaking traditions.
This is a report on some of what NA World services has been doing as far as public relations go.
We sent a travel team to Cuba in early July 2003 to participate in the 1st Latin American Congress of Drug Addiction.
In June 2003, we sent a staff member to South Korea to participate in an addiction forum. We traveled with members from Japan to assist in efforts to start NA meetings in South Korea.
We sent a travel team to China. In the case of China, the trip came about after an invitation to participate in the first World Health Organization/Beijing Institute on Substance Abuse in Beijing, China.
AA World Services had their first opportunity to visit Beijing in 2000, and today AA has a few meetings in that city.
The NA World Board conducted the first-of-its-kind Public Relations Roundtable in April 2003 in Chatsworth, CA. The event was a prearranged gathering of seven professionals who, as members of the criminal justice sector, may direct addicts to NA as a part of their daily routine. The objective of the meeting was to gather information in order to help formulate a PR strategy. The group discussed a variety of issues pertinent to NA's image and explored ways to raise public
awareness of NA.
As a direct result of this roundtable discussion, the WB has created another public relations tool, NA in Brief. This new, single-sheet informational tool will be used at professional events and will be tailored to address specific audiences, as needed.
With this experience completed, plans have begun for the three more roundtables, one with medical professionals, one with treatment providers, and one with US governmental
agencies.
It will take a commitment from all levels of service and all parts of the fellowship to improve our image with the professional community. When we consider how many of these individuals have the opportunity to direct suffering addicts to us each day, we begin to realize the importance of this endeavor.
Might I add, this pales in comparison to the great amount of public information and public relations work that AA World services does.
Below is taken from the AA web site...
If You Are a Professional, A.A. Members Are Available to Cooperate with You
TO:
Health Care Professionals
Correctional Facilities Professionals
Treatment Facilities Professionals
Media and News Professionals
Employee Assistance Professionals
Alcoholics Anonymous has many A.A. members and service committees who are available to provide professionals with information about Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A. has a long history of cooperating but not affiliating with outside organizations and being available to provide A.A. meetings or information about A.A. upon request.
Are you gonna let them know they are breaking traditions too???
Last edited by Recoveree; 11-04-2003 at 07:41 PM.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by Matt V.
I do believe that such a letter would be a waste of time and energy. A simple announcement from the chair, at the start of the meeting, that the group doesn't sign papers is sufficient. No further explanation is necessary.
I do believe that such a letter would be a waste of time and energy. A simple announcement from the chair, at the start of the meeting, that the group doesn't sign papers is sufficient. No further explanation is necessary.
1 - This letter will only be given to anyone just once. The first time someone asks for a attendence card to be signed this letter is given instead.
If an addict asks for a copy of the letter, it will serve as 'proof' that he/she was at the meeting.
2 - It gives the PI Committee an extra opportunity to make contact with the judicial/correctional community with the goal of setting up a meeting where a presentation can be made, informing these officials about what the NA (or AA) is and does.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
Narcotics Anonymous ???
can we please keep this A.A. ?
there is a seperate forum here for discusions pertaining to NA.
http://soberrecovery.com/forums/foru...?s=&forumid=20
can we please keep this A.A. ?
there is a seperate forum here for discusions pertaining to NA.
http://soberrecovery.com/forums/foru...?s=&forumid=20
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Aiea, HI
Posts: 23
Originally posted by The Jay Walker
Narcotics Anonymous ???
can we please keep this A.A. ?
there is a seperate forum here for discusions pertaining to NA.
Narcotics Anonymous ???
can we please keep this A.A. ?
there is a seperate forum here for discusions pertaining to NA.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by The Jay Walker
Narcotics Anonymous ???
can we please keep this A.A. ?
there is a seperate forum here for discusions pertaining to NA.
http://soberrecovery.com/forums/foru...?s=&forumid=20
Narcotics Anonymous ???
can we please keep this A.A. ?
there is a seperate forum here for discusions pertaining to NA.
http://soberrecovery.com/forums/foru...?s=&forumid=20
The discussion is not 'about' NA.
The topic of discussion in this thread is whether or not signing court cards (or whatever other name there is) is a violation of certain traditions. If it helps you, substitute an A for the N.
Other topics that grew out of this thread is the work that Public Information Committees do and the levels of cooperation and relationships that are formed with outside agencies that direct people to AA meetings and other fellowships.
These issues are very similar for both fellowships.
If allowed to edit my posts by the forum admin, I will go back and remove the references to NA so it is more palatable for those who see the issue as fellowship specific.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by Matt V.
Unfortunately, the line between the two keeps getting fuzzier and fuzzier - especially when the drug courts see no distinction between them. Here in Honolulu that's where nearly all of the court paper people come from. And there is no dearth of NA meetings here, either.
Unfortunately, the line between the two keeps getting fuzzier and fuzzier - especially when the drug courts see no distinction between them. Here in Honolulu that's where nearly all of the court paper people come from. And there is no dearth of NA meetings here, either.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Riverside, Ca.
Posts: 388
Quote
"If allowed to edit my posts by the forum admin, I will go back and remove the references to NA so it is more palatable for those who see the issue as fellowship specific."
Thank you for your cooperation.
Jay
"If allowed to edit my posts by the forum admin, I will go back and remove the references to NA so it is more palatable for those who see the issue as fellowship specific."
Thank you for your cooperation.
Jay
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Here we go.....pis*ing up the rope again.
Matt, as long as I've known you, you've never changed your mind. Please don't change now.
Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. For Pete's sake, make a choice. No big deal. Maybe God is using the court system to make these people thirsty....who knows?
If I don't feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I won't sign it. If I do feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I'll sign it. Jesus, you'd think a bolt of lightning was going to come down from GSO and strike the person who signs the damn letter.
Matt, as long as I've known you, you've never changed your mind. Please don't change now.
Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. For Pete's sake, make a choice. No big deal. Maybe God is using the court system to make these people thirsty....who knows?
If I don't feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I won't sign it. If I do feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I'll sign it. Jesus, you'd think a bolt of lightning was going to come down from GSO and strike the person who signs the damn letter.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Hi Recoveree,
"Others might find this interesting as well.
A letter from a group.. handed out to those requesting court card signatures to be returned to the judge, P.O., etc.....,,,,,,"
The above states a letter from a "group"
There is no need to hand out letters of any kind to anyone coming through those doors, because if the group voted No Signing........ thats all that is required.
It is stated at their wedsite that "there are NO Traditions that are broken regarding by signing court ordered slips" so if there is a problem regarding any Traditions that are seen as being broken........ then its best to contact AA or NA World Services, because its not me who is stating that......... it comes directly from the their website.
No where does it state that any group HAS to sign more than there initials on any slip from a court ordered person, simply decline to sign more is all. The courts have no say over if or what anyone signs at a meeting.
If what this group DID was take a group conscience, then I am at a loss also........ because after the group takes a "Group Conscience" and the vote is in.............then there is NO problem regarding court slips any more.
Its the "Group Conscience".....who has the final say about what takes place individually in their group regarding the signing of the court slips or anything other situation that comes up in that group. After that, if anyone sees a problem, then its their problem.
My home group does not see a problem with having anyone come through the doors of AA, no matter how they happen to reach AA is not of interest to us. There are NO Traditions being broken whether we sign or do not sign those court slips. Reaching out to help another sick and suffering alkie for my home group and myself is an honor in SERVICE for us. AA saved my life, and one of actions that I take in gratitude for my own sobriety and to maintain a daily reprieve contingent upon my spiritual condition ....... is I give it away the same way that it was given to this drunk......... FREELY. ALL are welcome, and the day that my own home group votes to exclude anyone based on anything......... thats the day that I will be looking for new home group.
Here is the key as far as I am concerned.........
"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve thier common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
Our 12 Traditions are not to exclude........ they are there to include all who suffer from this devastating disease that if left to its own devices.......... will KILL.
What has been passed to this drunk by those who came to AA long before I showed up was most valuable to this drunk and I carry it in my heart to to this day......... GRATITUDE for the gift of sobriety. I didn't get sober MY WAY. MY WAY got me here. There is a solution..... and its not MY WAY.
So if all one can see is the negative with those who are coming through the doors........... then I have a suggestion for ya........... the next time you see someone come through those doors and you begin to "think" that they ought not be here for any reason at all ......... then take a really good look in the eyes of the that person whether they have a slip to be signed or not........and then remember where we came from, how we got here, and what its like now........
because there by Grace of God......go I
Love
Patsy
"Others might find this interesting as well.
A letter from a group.. handed out to those requesting court card signatures to be returned to the judge, P.O., etc.....,,,,,,"
The above states a letter from a "group"
There is no need to hand out letters of any kind to anyone coming through those doors, because if the group voted No Signing........ thats all that is required.
It is stated at their wedsite that "there are NO Traditions that are broken regarding by signing court ordered slips" so if there is a problem regarding any Traditions that are seen as being broken........ then its best to contact AA or NA World Services, because its not me who is stating that......... it comes directly from the their website.
No where does it state that any group HAS to sign more than there initials on any slip from a court ordered person, simply decline to sign more is all. The courts have no say over if or what anyone signs at a meeting.
If what this group DID was take a group conscience, then I am at a loss also........ because after the group takes a "Group Conscience" and the vote is in.............then there is NO problem regarding court slips any more.
Its the "Group Conscience".....who has the final say about what takes place individually in their group regarding the signing of the court slips or anything other situation that comes up in that group. After that, if anyone sees a problem, then its their problem.
My home group does not see a problem with having anyone come through the doors of AA, no matter how they happen to reach AA is not of interest to us. There are NO Traditions being broken whether we sign or do not sign those court slips. Reaching out to help another sick and suffering alkie for my home group and myself is an honor in SERVICE for us. AA saved my life, and one of actions that I take in gratitude for my own sobriety and to maintain a daily reprieve contingent upon my spiritual condition ....... is I give it away the same way that it was given to this drunk......... FREELY. ALL are welcome, and the day that my own home group votes to exclude anyone based on anything......... thats the day that I will be looking for new home group.
Here is the key as far as I am concerned.........
"Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve thier common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism.
The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."
Our 12 Traditions are not to exclude........ they are there to include all who suffer from this devastating disease that if left to its own devices.......... will KILL.
What has been passed to this drunk by those who came to AA long before I showed up was most valuable to this drunk and I carry it in my heart to to this day......... GRATITUDE for the gift of sobriety. I didn't get sober MY WAY. MY WAY got me here. There is a solution..... and its not MY WAY.
So if all one can see is the negative with those who are coming through the doors........... then I have a suggestion for ya........... the next time you see someone come through those doors and you begin to "think" that they ought not be here for any reason at all ......... then take a really good look in the eyes of the that person whether they have a slip to be signed or not........and then remember where we came from, how we got here, and what its like now........
because there by Grace of God......go I
Love
Patsy
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
Originally posted by Music
Here we go.....pis*ing up the rope again.
Matt, as long as I've known you, you've never changed your mind. Please don't change now.
Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. For Pete's sake, make a choice. No big deal. Maybe God is using the court system to make these people thirsty....who knows?
If I don't feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I won't sign it. If I do feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I'll sign it. Jesus, you'd think a bolt of lightning was going to come down from GSO and strike the person who signs the damn letter.
Here we go.....pis*ing up the rope again.
Matt, as long as I've known you, you've never changed your mind. Please don't change now.
Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. Sign the letter, don't sign the letter. For Pete's sake, make a choice. No big deal. Maybe God is using the court system to make these people thirsty....who knows?
If I don't feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I won't sign it. If I do feel comfortable signing the damn letter, I'll sign it. Jesus, you'd think a bolt of lightning was going to come down from GSO and strike the person who signs the damn letter.
Thank you for being YOU and for keeping it simple. LOL
I love ya Music
Patsy
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Patsy wrote: "So if all one can see is the negative with those who are coming through the doors........... then I have a suggestion for ya........... the next time you see someone come through those doors and you begin to "think" that they ought not be here for any reason at all"
The group in question has no problem with who comes through the doors. The problem as they see it is taking attendence for an outside agency.
If the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, then what does that have to do with court mandated attendees who don't believe they have a drinking problem?
As far as what you wrote
"It is stated at their wedsite that "there are NO Traditions that are broken regarding by signing court ordered slips" so if there is a problem regarding any Traditions that are seen as being broken........ then its best to contact AA or NA World Services, because its not me who is stating that......... it comes directly from the their website."
You left this part out of what it says on one of the web sites....
"The group is the final authority in this matter. The suggestions offered here are merely intended to aid groups in their decision-making processes."
"Clearly, the Fourth Tradition leaves the final decision to each group as to whether or not to accommodate meeting attendance cards."
Remember that the letter this group uses serves as an important tool to getting information about the fellowship to those who direct more than half of all meeting attendees to AA and NA meetings.
Several of the judges that used to require attendence cards now do not require them, but still send people to meetings.
We have also added 3 H&I meetings bringing the message to those in jail as a direct result of one judge getting this letter and consequently meeting with the PI committee.
Ultimately everyone is served.
Anyway, nice chatting you. Gotta go now .... have to sign some court cards at my home group.
Richie
The group in question has no problem with who comes through the doors. The problem as they see it is taking attendence for an outside agency.
If the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking, then what does that have to do with court mandated attendees who don't believe they have a drinking problem?
As far as what you wrote
"It is stated at their wedsite that "there are NO Traditions that are broken regarding by signing court ordered slips" so if there is a problem regarding any Traditions that are seen as being broken........ then its best to contact AA or NA World Services, because its not me who is stating that......... it comes directly from the their website."
You left this part out of what it says on one of the web sites....
"The group is the final authority in this matter. The suggestions offered here are merely intended to aid groups in their decision-making processes."
"Clearly, the Fourth Tradition leaves the final decision to each group as to whether or not to accommodate meeting attendance cards."
Remember that the letter this group uses serves as an important tool to getting information about the fellowship to those who direct more than half of all meeting attendees to AA and NA meetings.
Several of the judges that used to require attendence cards now do not require them, but still send people to meetings.
We have also added 3 H&I meetings bringing the message to those in jail as a direct result of one judge getting this letter and consequently meeting with the PI committee.
Ultimately everyone is served.
Anyway, nice chatting you. Gotta go now .... have to sign some court cards at my home group.
Richie
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