The courts and violating traditions
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally posted by Recoveree
What I'm talking about is the first tradition. And after reading your posts, I'm not surprised that you don't understand my posts.
You can dress up self centeredness anyway you want, but it is still self centeredness.
Tradition one last time I looked was about placing the greater good of the whole before the good of the individual.
And I'm not talking about you Bob. Stop thinking its about you. I'm glad you are here and going to meetings.
What I'm talking about is the first tradition. And after reading your posts, I'm not surprised that you don't understand my posts.
You can dress up self centeredness anyway you want, but it is still self centeredness.
Tradition one last time I looked was about placing the greater good of the whole before the good of the individual.
And I'm not talking about you Bob. Stop thinking its about you. I'm glad you are here and going to meetings.
Recoveree, I don't know how you got here, but I know damn sure that if someone had taken an attitude that I wasn't that important, I probably wouldn't be here.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: California
Posts: 233
Music do you attend any meetings that have the 'card people.' I think I remember you saying that you did. It cant be all that different where you are than where I am. Many of these people dont come at the beginning of the meeting, they come in late and are disruptive. Shoot the **** with there friends usually in the back of the room, walk up to the secretary during the meeting many times to get their cards signed and are generally disruptive. Not all but many of them act this way. It is not my responsibility to teach them how to act. I am not an arm of the law. It is an impossition on me and other members who want to be there to put up with their juvenile crap.
I think there is a disconnect in this thread. We who are opposed to signing court cards arent against carrying he message or helping the newcomer. I'll speak for myself. But many court ordered 'card people' are not at meetings because they want to be. The ones I'm talking about arent sitting quietly trying to decide is AA right for me, do I have a problem, or what the hell is going on? These are feelings common to newcomers who are on the fence trying to decide what to do. They deserve all our attention and help, and it isnt hard to tell which ones they are.
The 'card people' are just there to get their ticket punched. And to me that has been a big distraction at times.
Earlier, way earlier in this thread I suggested an informational meeting set up by the court, run by court personnel, to explain how to act, and what to expect from an AA meeting. To my knowledge noone has tried this or at least noone has posted here about there experiences. I dont think it violates anything for the court to tell their people how to act at an AA meeting and it might cut out the BS.
From a personal point of view, AA could do nothing until I admitted that I had a problem, until I admitted that I needed help. This is a participitory program, you cant get it through osmosis. Signing a slip of paper is not going to do squat for a drunk except satisfy the court. That is not AA's business. We are not supposed to force our message on anyone. But by cooperating with the courts in this way we are tacitly agreeing to force feed AA to the 'card people.'
All this card stuff would bother me less if the courts would insure that AA rules and procedures were followed and respected.
I think there is a disconnect in this thread. We who are opposed to signing court cards arent against carrying he message or helping the newcomer. I'll speak for myself. But many court ordered 'card people' are not at meetings because they want to be. The ones I'm talking about arent sitting quietly trying to decide is AA right for me, do I have a problem, or what the hell is going on? These are feelings common to newcomers who are on the fence trying to decide what to do. They deserve all our attention and help, and it isnt hard to tell which ones they are.
The 'card people' are just there to get their ticket punched. And to me that has been a big distraction at times.
Earlier, way earlier in this thread I suggested an informational meeting set up by the court, run by court personnel, to explain how to act, and what to expect from an AA meeting. To my knowledge noone has tried this or at least noone has posted here about there experiences. I dont think it violates anything for the court to tell their people how to act at an AA meeting and it might cut out the BS.
From a personal point of view, AA could do nothing until I admitted that I had a problem, until I admitted that I needed help. This is a participitory program, you cant get it through osmosis. Signing a slip of paper is not going to do squat for a drunk except satisfy the court. That is not AA's business. We are not supposed to force our message on anyone. But by cooperating with the courts in this way we are tacitly agreeing to force feed AA to the 'card people.'
All this card stuff would bother me less if the courts would insure that AA rules and procedures were followed and respected.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by Music
If it weren't for us individuals, there wouldn't be any WHOLE!!
Recoveree, I don't know how you got here, but I know damn sure that if someone had taken an attitude that I wasn't that important, I probably wouldn't be here.
If it weren't for us individuals, there wouldn't be any WHOLE!!
Recoveree, I don't know how you got here, but I know damn sure that if someone had taken an attitude that I wasn't that important, I probably wouldn't be here.
Tradition One
"Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. Unity."
"The unity of Alcoholics Anonymous it the most cherished quality our Society has. Our live, the lives of all to come, depend squarely upon it. We stay whole, or A.A. dies. Without unity, the heart of A.A. would cease to beat;"
"The moment this Twelfth Step work forms a group, another discovery is made - that most individuals cannot recover unless there is a group. Realization dawns that he is but a small part of a great whole; that no personal sacrifice is too great for preservation of the Fellowship. He learns that the clamor of desires and ambitions within him must be silenced whenever these could damage the group. It becomes plain that the group must survive or the individual will not."
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by Ninerfan
Earlier, way earlier in this thread I suggested an informational meeting set up by the court, run by court personnel, to explain how to act, and what to expect from an AA meeting. To my knowledge noone has tried this or at least noone has posted here about there experiences. I dont think it violates anything for the court to tell their people how to act at an AA meeting and it might cut out the BS.
Earlier, way earlier in this thread I suggested an informational meeting set up by the court, run by court personnel, to explain how to act, and what to expect from an AA meeting. To my knowledge noone has tried this or at least noone has posted here about there experiences. I dont think it violates anything for the court to tell their people how to act at an AA meeting and it might cut out the BS.
Thanks!!!
And thanks for a nice articulate post.
I'm sure it will go over better than my mysterious sarcastic caustic rant. I know thats what I wrote, not my best moment, but just the way I was feeling at the time.
Sorry folks if it didn't make sense.
Glad at least one of you was amused anyway.
Peace
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Hi again,
I realize that a lot of the "card carriers" are there for the wrong reasons. Who among us is going to sit and decide which is which?
The idea of informing the legal begals is a good one. So, go do it. Otherwise, appoint a person to run the meeting who isn't afraid to say something when the meeting is disturbed. If a wet drunk came in and disrupted the meeting, who would be the one to throw him out? Watch it now!!!
I'll say it again. Sign the cards, or don't sign the cards according to your group conscience. But to not let these people attend may be locking someone out who really wants/needs to be there.
I realize that a lot of the "card carriers" are there for the wrong reasons. Who among us is going to sit and decide which is which?
The idea of informing the legal begals is a good one. So, go do it. Otherwise, appoint a person to run the meeting who isn't afraid to say something when the meeting is disturbed. If a wet drunk came in and disrupted the meeting, who would be the one to throw him out? Watch it now!!!
I'll say it again. Sign the cards, or don't sign the cards according to your group conscience. But to not let these people attend may be locking someone out who really wants/needs to be there.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by Music
Sign the cards, or don't sign the cards according to your group conscience. But to not let these people attend may be locking someone out who really wants/needs to be there.
Sign the cards, or don't sign the cards according to your group conscience. But to not let these people attend may be locking someone out who really wants/needs to be there.
I don't recall seeing that in any post in this thread.
Can you point out where that post is please, I wanna catch up.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally posted by Recoveree
Did I miss something?? Was someone suggesting that anyone be prevented from attending a meeting??
I don't recall seeing that in any post in this thread.
Can you point out where that post is please, I wanna catch up.
Did I miss something?? Was someone suggesting that anyone be prevented from attending a meeting??
I don't recall seeing that in any post in this thread.
Can you point out where that post is please, I wanna catch up.
You go back and find it if it's that big a deal. And while you're at it, read the first page of tradition 1 in the 12 and 12 where it talks about the individual...
Let me know what you see there.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Long Island, New York, U.S.A.
Posts: 179
Originally posted by Music
Recoveree,
You go back and find it if it's that big a deal. And while you're at it, read the first page of tradition 1 in the 12 and 12 where it talks about the individual...
Let me know what you see there.
Recoveree,
You go back and find it if it's that big a deal. And while you're at it, read the first page of tradition 1 in the 12 and 12 where it talks about the individual...
Let me know what you see there.
As to tradition one, Its about the group, not the individual.
You are free to interpret it like you want. If you want to believe its about the welfare of the individual coming before the welfare of the group, then all I can say is I am glad you are not part of my home group.
Regards,
Richie
Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Boston
Posts: 710
First page of Tradition One, in the 12 and 12.... page 129
"Does this mean," some will anxiously ask, "that in A.A. the individual doesn't count for much? Is he to be dominated by his group and swallowed up in it?"
We may certainly answer this question with a loud "No!"
We believe there isn't a fellowship on earth which lavishes more devoted care upon its individual members; surely there is none which more jealously guards the individual's right to think, talk, and act as he wishes. No A.A. can compel another to do anything; nobody can be punished or expelled. Our Twelve Steps to recovery are suggestions; the Twelve Traditions which guarantee A.A.'s unity contain not a single "Don't." They repeatedly say "We ought..." but never " You must!"
Page 130 of Tradition One...
"How," they ask, can such a crowd of anarchists function at all? How can they possibly place their common welfare first? What in Heaven's name holds them together?"
"Those who look closely soon have the key to this strange paradox. The A.A. member has to conform to the principles of recovery. His life actually depends upon obedience to spiritual principles. If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies At first he goes along because he must, but later he discovers a way of life he really wants to live"
Hi Recoveree,
Working, applying, and practicing the principles of recovery in ones own life and passing it on......... working, applying and practicing these principles within their own group with one another and passing it on........working, applying and practicing the Traditions as an AA group and within the AA group and passing it on........ will hold an AA group firmly together with God, as He may speak through the group conscience....
(((((((Music)))))))))) my home group would just love to have you
"Does this mean," some will anxiously ask, "that in A.A. the individual doesn't count for much? Is he to be dominated by his group and swallowed up in it?"
We may certainly answer this question with a loud "No!"
We believe there isn't a fellowship on earth which lavishes more devoted care upon its individual members; surely there is none which more jealously guards the individual's right to think, talk, and act as he wishes. No A.A. can compel another to do anything; nobody can be punished or expelled. Our Twelve Steps to recovery are suggestions; the Twelve Traditions which guarantee A.A.'s unity contain not a single "Don't." They repeatedly say "We ought..." but never " You must!"
Page 130 of Tradition One...
"How," they ask, can such a crowd of anarchists function at all? How can they possibly place their common welfare first? What in Heaven's name holds them together?"
"Those who look closely soon have the key to this strange paradox. The A.A. member has to conform to the principles of recovery. His life actually depends upon obedience to spiritual principles. If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies At first he goes along because he must, but later he discovers a way of life he really wants to live"
Hi Recoveree,
Working, applying, and practicing the principles of recovery in ones own life and passing it on......... working, applying and practicing these principles within their own group with one another and passing it on........working, applying and practicing the Traditions as an AA group and within the AA group and passing it on........ will hold an AA group firmly together with God, as He may speak through the group conscience....
(((((((Music)))))))))) my home group would just love to have you
Paused
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 6
I think as a person with very little sobriety I can simplfy this subject for everyone. Sign the cards/sheets for everyone but, run the meeting a structured way and there will be no problems. Every meeting I attended was like "Catholic School" raise your hand when you had a comment keep your mouth shut when others are speaking.
This worse thing that can happen for these people that come with sheets is that the A.A. message will be planted in there brain like it was in mine.
Keep it simple.
This worse thing that can happen for these people that come with sheets is that the A.A. message will be planted in there brain like it was in mine.
Keep it simple.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Geez Patsy,
Thanks for your post. However, you went and did all of Recoveree's homework and he/she still doesn't "get it." I guess he/she didn't read exactly what he/she wanted to read.
We see and hear what we want to see and hear ya know....
Also, thanks for the invited to your home group. I'd love to take you up on that and get one of those nice big hugs you throw around so freely.....
Love you Babe.
Thanks for your post. However, you went and did all of Recoveree's homework and he/she still doesn't "get it." I guess he/she didn't read exactly what he/she wanted to read.
We see and hear what we want to see and hear ya know....
Also, thanks for the invited to your home group. I'd love to take you up on that and get one of those nice big hugs you throw around so freely.....
Love you Babe.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Zion, Illinois
Posts: 3,411
Originally posted by Recoveree
Why dont you post the rest of the writing??
Why dont you post the rest of the writing??
Have a great day Recoveree, and keep signing.....:p
Paused
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 23
Good Morning...the most dangerous thing any of us can do is to approach this from a point of rigidity...rigidity leaves no room for change...the fact is--while I agree this is not about people who need it..rather about people who want it--many have started their road to recovery through court ordered attendence...In fact My 17 years plus started exactly that way...It is my humble opinion that the higher power in my life is also the higher power in other's lives...when in doubt I try to turn these matters over to that higher power...who am I to determine who wants and needs it...if you choose to show up for whatever reason...it means that we need to be there to help you to understand the basics of recovery...the advandage to me in seeing a newcomer--regardless why they come through the door--is that they remind me of where I come from...they allow me to stay in touch with my past history...after all those who forget their past history are doomed to repeat it...so court ordered cases can help me stay on my path...just as much as those that volunteer for recovery...as they say 90 and 90...then decide...and as they told me, if this is not something you choose don't let the door hit you in the butt...Just remember that the door always swings both ways...dr dave
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