Patsyd1

Thank you Adam for the link, and thank you for passing it on

Love
Patsy

Matt V.

I read the document referred to by that link. It concerns AA groups cooperating with other programs. Simply sentencing someone to go to some meetings as a condition of their probation is not, in my opinion, a program.

A rubber stamp of the name of the group and the signature of the group's secretary or the meeting chairperson sure sounds like an endorsement. And showing the court or the probation department that someone is complying with their sentence would seem to qualify as an outside issue.

I guess the thing that bugs me the most is the courts attitude that AA meetings are a convenient place to dump their drug offenders. Probation and go get a paper signed - and that's it. I see people come to meetings with their papers that are higher'n a kite. What good does this do for anyone?

When the issue comes up at business meetings, I'll continue to oppose it. If the policy is ever changed, I'll continue to attend meetings until they become so chaotic that they're no longer of any value, or they're shut down by the city. Then I'll find a new home group.

Patsyd1

The city can not shut down an AA group Matt, they can only refuse to rent the space.

There are many many places to rent to have an AA meeting in and that place is only one.

"I see people come to meetings with their papers that are higher'n a kite. What good does this do for anyone?"

The good that it does me is that I get to remember where I came from and how very grateful I am today to have sobriety.....physical and emotional sobriety.

I believe the question that needs to be asked is this:
Why do you allow this to rent so much space in your own head that it takes away your peace of mind and serenity?

How many alcoholics can possibly be being sent to AA from the court system there? These alkies that are court ordered are choosing to attend your particular meeting, the court isn't ordering them to any one particular meeting at all. These people are being order to attend AA meetings........ it is an outside issue, we have no control over where the court or the judge sends these people. The issue that we have to contend with group to group is whether we sign the papers or not.\

Yours has made the decision that your home group will not sign the papers. What is the problem? Announce it at the beginning of the AA meeting and then carry through. That it. Keep it simple is what I would suggest, because whether these drunks come to your AA meeting or not, whether the court ordered papers are signed or not....isn't the problem. The problem is why do you allow this to rent space in your own head? Thats the problem.

All you are is one member among many AA members. Its the group conscience that will decide, not Matt's conscience.

Why not allow it to just be? Because the truth of the matter is that we have no control over what the courts decide to do, or where alkies come to have their papers signed. The only we have any control over is our one vote at our home group business meeting....... vote, and leave the outcome to the group conscience.

Alcoholics Anonymous corporates with many many outside resources........ that doesn't mean that Alcoholics Anonymous is affliated with any of them........ we simply corporate...... we are not affliated with any of them.


Love
Patsy

vinnietoo

Patsyd1,


Very well said... Why not allow it to just be? Because the truth of the matter is that we have no control over what the courts decide to do, or where alkies come to have their papers signed. The only we have any control over is our one vote at our home group business meeting....... vote, and leave the outcome to the group conscience.

Thanks,
Vinnie

Matt V.

It probably wouldn't bother me as much if these people were there because of alcohol. Nine out of ten, however, are drug offenders. Giving 'em probation and telling 'em to go to AA meetings is an easy out for the court.
When the city fire marshall's office told the group that they will stop the meetings if the unsafe practices continued, I don't believe they were joking. And the city has nothing to do with who the space is rented from (not the city). They can, however, enforce safety regulations.

Why do I let this bother me? Because I believe it's wrong, that's why. And that's a good enough reason for me.

Patsyd1

Hey Vinnie, and thank you.

I tried to edit that post due to spelling errors and grammer errors of mine, but it says that I can't.

Sooooooo I meant to type cooperate...and not corporate.

Other than that....... I stand by what I shared.. LOL

Love
Patsy

Patsyd1

They probably aren't joking....... and if they aren't, then the only other decision to make is to move the AA meeting somewhere else.




Well Matt, is all this bother that you are allowing, that is a good enough reason for you..... how is it working for ya? What is carrying around this resentment doing for you? And the best one is this one:....... how is carrying this resentment changing anything or improving anything?

Vote....... and let it be. Because the truth is that you are comletely powerless over everything else besides that one vote.

Carrying around things that bother me, that I have absolutely no control over...... just isn't an option for this drunk today.
But to each their own, everyone has their own lessons to learn...... and if its a good enough reason for you to bother yourself...... who am I to interfere LOL

Love
Patsy

Ninerfan

This idea that we (AA) have no power over what the courts do kinda bothers me. Has anyone spoken up to the courts and said 'Hey why dont you ask us first if we think this is a good idea since we are the ones who have to baby sit.'
Can you imagine saying that to a judge? Seriously, if someones intergroup has contacted their local authorities, whoever they may be, and had some good results with them I would like to hear about it. We havent' done that up here so I can't say if we are 'powerless' or not.

the initial post dealt with court card people, not court ordered people. I make a distinction between the two and I dont know if Matt does or not. You see I was court ordered and hated AA from the start. But gratefully I didnt' have a card to get signed. I showed up usually before the meeting, sat through it all, and then left. Compare that to 'the card people'...A race of people....No nevermind. Someone with a court card attends an AA meeting. Maybe he shows up on time, maybe not. At some point the card has to be physically brought to the secretary, imagine Patsy that you are speaking when the 'card people' walk in. They schuck and jive talking amongst themselves all the way to the head of the table, deliver their cards, either get them signed and leave or wait until some later time when the sec. signs the cards and then they leave. If they wait for the card, and of course you know they will, how many conversations and eruptions of laughter are you going to allow before turning on them and telling the 'card people' to behave.

Patsy, I love ya but I dont think you have been to a lot of meetings where the 'card people' congregate. I completely understad Matts frustration. And I wonder if we dont have more power as a group then we give ourselves credit for. I have more but I'll stop for now. I do want to say that this is not an attempt to discourage meeting attendance but rather my attempt to see if we (AA as a whole) can exert some pressure on the courts to see to it that their 'card people' know the score and know how to act at an AA/NA meeting.

Peace

vinnietoo

Patsyd1,

Bye the bye here is a spell checker that works with ie
if you have it. http://www.iespell.com/

Have a great one,
Vinnie

Patsyd1

Thank you Vinnie..... but I know how to spell the word, its just my fingers sometime go ahead of my brain LOL

And I thank you, because I will use the spell checker for those words that I do not know

Love
Patsy

Patsyd1

Hi Niner,

They are slips to be signed. There is no card carrying people that I know of LOL

My home group signs these slips, we voted in our group conscience to sign them.

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying Niner. Each AA group is atonymous...... being so..... we take our own group conscience for that group. My group voted to sign the slips, and there are other groups who vote not to sign the slips.

Now why would take an outside issue to the courts. The courts have no say over what we do as an AA group. And our AA group has no say over what the courts do. The judge simply sentenced these people to attend an AA meeting. The people who come to our AA meeting do not interrupt the meeting at all. And if they did, we would simply explain to them right there what kind of behavior is acceptable at an AA meeting.

First of all, these court ordered people do not wear a sign stating that they are from the courts. Every one is welcomed at our AA meeting...... we do not ask who sent them, or why. We are not interested in how they go there, we are interested in our primary purpose of staying sober and helping anyone.... ANYONE who wants it.
Do you honestly believe that we have some control over who wants it and who doesn't? That is simply none of my business.

At the opening of our AA meeting we announce that ALL slips will be signed at the end of the AA meeting, to please see the secretary of the group for that purpose.

I have been coming to AA for 14 years, and I have never encountered anyone who disruptive to the AA meeting. They usually come in, and sit at the back of the meeting and they are usually the very quiet ones LOL

We have had several people who were court ordered to AA meetings.........and who have stayed to remain sober...... and we have some who are wonderful AA members who belong to our home group. These wonderful AA members reach out to these new court ordered people with a powerful message of recovery.

Now..... let me ask you something Niner. What is it exactly that you would say to a judge who sends an alcoholic to AA meetings?

What is it that you would say to a court ordered person? Sorry, we do not help alcoholics who are court ordered here? No thank you..... thats not the AA message that I carry, and I do not want to carry that message. Its just not how this program works.

The judge would have a wonderful laugh......and so would my AA group. See the judge is doing his job, and his job is none of my business. If the legal system seems to believe that sending these people may do some good.........who are WE to send them away?

I believe that this attitude comes directly from those who find it very hard to reach out to the still sick and suffering alky. Not me, I am grateful to be able to reach out to any alcoholic......sick and suffering, newly sober, sober for a while or sober for years. It matters little to me...... see I AM AN ALCOHOLIC......and I want and need to reach out to another alcoholic and share my experience, strength and hope with those who may get it, or may not get it.

Who am I to judge who is acceptable or not acceptable to come to an AA meeting? This is a disease, and one in which kills.

I had no trouble putting up with unacceptable behavior in the bars....... I had no trouble puking, fighting, making a complete ass of myself, and watching others make a complete ass of themselves when I was actively drinking.

These AA members reached out to me because I was a sick and suffering alcoholic.........NOT because I came through those doors of Alcoholics Anonymous from a place that they deemed fit.

The Traditions are there for a very good reason........ they hold the AA groups together through all kinds of turmoil. If I am practicing the 12 Steps in my own life and passing it on.....and I am practicing the 12 Traditions in my own group and passing it on........ then I am well aware that it matters little where any sick and suffering alcoholic comes from, how they got here,........ because I will be happy to share with them "What its like now for this drunk"......... and if they hear something.... great. And if they don't....well there are many sick and suffering alcoholics who DO..... I will just keep passing the powerful message of RECOVERY..... because thats why WE are gathered together...... so WE can stay sober......and pass it on.

When I have attended an AA meeting where there are AA members sitting around and deciding who they will help...and who they won't....... then that is no longer an AA meeting, its a gathering of people who forget where they came from.

I do not believe that I was given this beautiful gift of sobriety so that I could judge who I give it away to, and who I don't.

This is a WE program.... and WE practice the principles of this God given simple program and WE pass it on....... not MY WAY, but the way that was it was passed to me.....lovingly, freely and with hands that reached out to this drunk to HELP me to stay sober.



Niner....... Its WE who get to stay sober by working with another alcoholic, whether they get sober or not. WE are not babysitting, WE are saving our own lives, and insuring ourselves one more day of sobriety........ and helping other sick and suffering alcoholics to achieve sobriety... one day at a time.

And for this drunk, thats always a good idea

AA works...... pass it on.

Love
Patsy

Matt V.

Or to simply continue the policy of not signing papers.


Actually, the only times I ever really give the subject any thought a t all are -

1. When it's brought up at business meetings,

2. When I have to tell people at a meeting I'm chairing that we don't sign papers, and

3. On I-net discussion boards.

Otherwise, it's really not worth bothering with. And I'm beginning to wonder about #3.

Patsyd1

"Or to simply continue the policy of not signing papers."

If thats what your AA group votes for....then that would keep it real simple for you Matt ... LOL

Love
Patsy

Ninerfan

Patsy your completely missing my point. I'm not talking about carrying the message and giving it away to keep it. I am talking about very disruptive people, usually drug addicts, letscall a spade a spade, who have been sent to Aa/NA as part of their probation. Because of AA's reputatuion for cooperation the courts have wittingly or unwittlingly dumped their problems on us. This is not attraction or promotion. It is court mandated attendance. Herre in California we passed a proposition a couple years ago that mandated that allfirst offender non-violent drug/alcohol offenders be sent to treatment. Since we have no treatment facilities where I live, the local meetings have been the courts only alternative. Prop. 36 in case your interested. These new people go beyond the usual cranky alkies who dont want to be here. They troop in, talk amongst themselves, disrupt the meeting and, when the magic card is signed, leave without so much as a kiss my butt. Those are the people I'm talking about and you have been very fortunate not to have run into them.

What would I say to the court? Dear sirs: please establish at your own expense an informational meeting that new offenders must attend to learn the ropes re: AA/NA procedure. The dos and don'ts. If you are late for the meeting, dont bother attending, while you are there, be polite and keep your mouth shut. When the meeting is over,then and only then will you be allowed to pass a court card/slip to the secretary to be signed. Be a good boy or go to jail.
This informational meeting would not be an AA meeting obviously and so the leader of the meeting can speak for the court and really lay down the law.
I dont see why this is so far fetched. Someone needs to try it. Use your own words. We (AA) will cooperate if you (The court system) will cooperate.

Patsyd1

Niner.... what you are speaking of is a direct responsibility of YOUR GROUP to bring the meeting back. If they are that disruptive, then politely ask them to leave.....or call a group conscience and VOTE no more signing of court slips.

Niner...... Tradition 3 addresses all those concerns very nicely.

Page 140 and 141 of the 12 Step Book..... addresses what your concerns are.

Personally.... my home group puts on an AA meeting.....and WE do not allow anyone to hyjack it....... that is OUR responsbility as an AA group. We read at the beginning of the AA meeting..... "please refrain from conversation during the meeting..... if you have something pressing to discuss, PLEASE TAKE IT OUTSIDE. When there is chatter, or any other disturbance that needs to be addressed immedately, We do not hesitate to do immediately ...... We have, from the podium, when necessary (which is rare)..... simply stated.... PLEASE QUIET DOWN.... AND/OR TAKE IT OUTSIDE.

If a few continue to disrupt the meeting...... they are approached and asked to finish up outside. We have never had a problem that hyjacked the our AA meeting after setting the proper boundries of what is acceptable and what is not at our AA meeting.

What would I write to the court? Nothing, because it is an outside issue, and when the court ordered people come in, then it becomes an inside issue..... that WE as an AA group deal with.

If this is an out of control problem at your AA group, then I suggest that you take it to where you can do something about it........ at the AA business meeting.

The court orders these people to go to an AA meetings and get their slip signed....... the court can not order the AA meeting to sign the slips or to do anything that the group deems not acceptable at that AA meeting...... such as a group conscience of "We do not sign court slips here at this AA meeting.

There are many AA meetings that one can chose to go to...... especially in California...... so call the business meeting to order, and vote.

AA cooperates..... AA groups do not allow hyjacking the meeting. LOL

Have you contacted AA World Services..... they may be able to explain how the Traditions work........and it will up to your own AA group to say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean........... and just follow through with adhering to the AA 12 Traditions.

Love
Patsy

Ninerfan

And do the courts have no responsibility for the people they send our way?

Patsyd1

I have no idea what the courts responsibility is..... THAT is an outside issue.

The following is information that is very helpful to your concerns Niner..... and its directly from Alcoholics Anonymous literature.



What Does A.A. Do?
1. A.A. members share their experience with anyone seeking help with a drinking problem; they give person-to-person service or "sponsorship" to the alcoholic coming to A.A. from any source.

2. The A.A. program, set forth in our Twelve Steps, offers the alcoholic a way to develop a satisfying life without alcohol.

3. This program is discussed at A.A. group meetings.


a. Open speaker meetings — open to alcoholics and nonalcoholics. (Attendance at an open A.A. meeting is the best way to learn what A.A. is, what it does, and what it does not do.) At speaker meetings, A.A. members “tell their stories.” They describe their experiences with alcohol, how they came to A.A., and how their lives have changed as a result of Alcoholics Anonymous.

b. Open discussion meetings — one member speaks briefly about his or her drinking experience, and then leads a discussion on A.A. recovery or any drinking-related problem anyone brings up. (Closed meetings are for A.A.s or anyone who may have a drinking problem.)

c. Closed discussion meetings — conducted just as open discussions are, but for alcoholics or prospective A.A.s only.

d. Step meetings (usually closed) — discussion of one of the Twelve Steps.

e. A.A. members also take meetings into correctional and treatment facilities.

f. A.A. members may be asked to conduct the informational meetings about A.A. as a part of A.S.A.P. (Alcohol Safety Action Project) and D.W.I. (Driving While Intoxicated) programs. These meetings about A.A. are not regular A.A. group meetings.



What A.A. Does Not Do
A.A. does not:
1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover

2. Solicit members


3. Engage in or sponsor research


4. Keep attendance records or case histories


5. Join “councils” of social agencies


6. Follow up or try to control its members


7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses


8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment


9. Offer religious services


10. Engage in education about alcohol


11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services


12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling


13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources


14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc.



Members From Court Programs and Treatment Facilities
In recent years, A.A. groups have welcomed many new members from court programs and treatment facilities. Some have come to A.A. voluntarily; others, under a degree of pressure. In our pamphlet “How A.A. Members Cooperate,” the following appears:



We cannot discriminate against any prospective A.A. member, even if he or she comes to us under pressure from a court, an employer, or any other agency.

Although the strength of our program lies in the voluntary nature of membership in A.A., many of us first attended meetings because we were forced to, either by someone else or by inner discomfort. But continual exposure to A.A. educated us to the true nature of the illness.... Who made the referral to A.A. is not what A.A. is interested in. It is the problem drinker who is our concern.... We cannot predict who will recover, nor have we the authority to decide how recovery should be sought by any other alcoholic.



Proof of Attendance at Meetings
Sometimes, courts ask for proof of attendance at A.A. meetings.
Some groups, with the consent of the prospective member, have the A.A. group secretary sign or initial a slip that has been furnished by the court together with a self-addressed court envelope. The referred person supplies identification and mails the slip back to the court as proof of attendance.

Other groups cooperate in different ways. There is no set procedure. The nature and extent of any group’s involvement in this process is entirely up to the individual group.
This proof of attendance at meetings is not part of A.A.’s procedure. Each group is autonomous and has the right to choose whether or not to sign court slips. In some areas the attendees report on themselves, at the request of the referring agency, and thus alleviate breaking A.A. members’ anonymity.

Matt V.

Actually, no, they don't. Once a court passes sentence on someone, the resonsibility for seeing that that sentence is carried out is handed off to another agency, generally either the D.O.C. or the Probation Dept. Once the Judge passes sentence and bangs his gavel it's no longer his concern.

Patsyd1

Actually what the courts concern is or isn't....... is not AA''s or the AA groups concern at all........ its an "outside issue" and we as AA members have no business addressing what the courts responsibility is or isn't.

AA as a whole has no opinons on outside issues. As an AA Group, we can address our concerns regarding court ordered slip signing at our own business meetings if it is affecting our AA group.

We cannot discriminate against any prospective A.A. member, even if he or she comes to us under pressure from a court, an employer, or any other agency.

Love
Patsy

Matt V.

OK. What is or isn't an issue with the courts isn't the point. The question is whether or not stamping and signing (endorsing) papers for people that are at a meeting not because they have a desire to stop drinking, but because it was the simplest way for the judge to get rid of them, is a violation of traditions. For that matter, what does a bunch of people that have no desire to attend AA, and won't continue once their sentence is served, contribute to the AA unity that the first tradition mentions?