Matt V.

Something that I've disagreed with almost from the very start of my involvement with AA is the practice of signing papers for people that are attending as a result of a court order. I see this as stretching the third tradition to it's limits and beyond, and throwing tradition six right out the window.

Tradition Three - "The only reqiurement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking." Of the many people I've encountered that were court-ordered to attend AA, stopping drinking was not on the agenda of most. Staying out of jail, keeping their job, family, etc. are motivating factors, but stopping drinking rarely is. Most of the people here that show up at meetings with papers were in court for drug-related offenses in the first place!! (Not to say that they're not alcoholics, but that's not what they were in court for.)

Tradition Six - "An AA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose." Signing and stamping papers is an endorsement. The judicial system is an outside enterprise. I know that the tradition was aimed at the alcoholics that may want to start hospitals, halfway houses, and so on, but at the time they were developed the thought that the courts would attempt to force the program on people that didn't want it probably never occured to those involved in the creation of the traditions. If it had, there may have been something written to cover it.

My home group was nearly shut down by the city because of this. The group meets at noon, right after drug-court. The court-house is right down the street, so all of the drug-court people would descend on this small room, and fill it to well over capacity. They'd drop their papers off and then congregate on the sidewalk in front of the building, creating a serious nuisance to neighboring businesses and pedestrians. The City Fire Marshall finally came down and said that if the crowding kept up we'd be shut down. The group voted to stop signing papers at the noon meeting (there are twenty-five meetings at that location each week). This is still a source of contention within the group, though.

As I said, I am against the practice of signing papers, and I don't believe the courts have any business ordering people to attend AA in the first place. Comments?

Ninerfan

This has been an on-again, off-again problem for us too. Most court ordered people just dont want to be there and are a huge distraction. And I understand where they are coming from, it is unfair to order them to AA, Na etc. If they want to stay sick then that is there business. We have not found a solution that works well yet.

But here is a suggestion. Have a representative from the intergroup meet with the District Attorney's office to set up an 'informational meeting' whcih tells new ofenders exactly what AA is and is not. This would not be an AA meeting, but more like an orientation meeting. Things like how to behave in a meeting would be discussed. It should be stressed that AA does not keep records or reports back to the court on anyone but does retain the right to ask people to leave who misbehave etc....In the spirit of cooperation but not affiliation it is worth a try. And if that suggestion doesn't work then close the meetings to court cards.

The Jay Walker

Matt

I have mixed feelings about this , because I do care about the traditions.

part of me thinks it does do some good, I for one was court ordered to AA, 19 years before I ever sobered up, but a seed was planted.

Part of me thinks its become a bad idea, I see many people come in to closed meetings, or people come in with problems other than alcohol.

Like Niner fan said, I know the responsability belongs to us, to inform the various judges, and treatment centers about what AA does and what AA does not do.

as it stands right now, the districts, and GSO have met about this concern, since AA has no ties to outside organisations, and has no opinion on outside issues,
GSO has come to the conclusion that it is up to each group wether they will sign court cards or not.

vinnietoo

Yea been there done that...Want to play hard line make them sign
there own cards...Tis a program of honesty. Don't sweat the small stuff OK.


Blessings,
Vinnie


P.S. least we do not have wired officers coming into the
meetings like they do in a northern country...with the Crowns
blessing. Eh.

TimOFromChicago

I do know people with quite a bit of quality sobriety that were helped through the doors by the State of Illinois Judicial system and I also see a lot people there just to get something signed. The group conscience for the group that I chair currently is no paper signing and we stick to it. The meeting is opened with the Closed meeting preamble with the addition of the line "Please note that this meeting does not sign any court documents."
For those that ask, we have an open meeting on saturday nights and sunday mornings at the same location and we direct them there. We don't say they have to leave (provided they're not disruptive) but it's made clear that the only reason we are there is because we don't want to drink today.

The sticking point comes from people that are there through a half way house or rehab after care program. Those DO get signed at the end of the meeting but usually only after the person has come to 3 or four meetings in a row...

This was a big bone of contention for quite some time and the group decided no. Three of the other meetings which I attend have no problems with it and while it used to bother me before, I figure I'm there to stay sober and it doesn't hurt to see what I could (and can still) go through.

I know the last place I would want to be is at an AA meeting if I was still drinking..

Well, that's enough rambling from me tonight, I don't know anything anyways...

Hope everyone has a good 81,400 seconds

TimO

AvieG

As Public Information Officer for my area, I wish I had the chance to experience this court ordering, but sadly here in England, the courts have not even displayed the contact posters I have sent to them!!!

AA is viewed as the 'Poor Sister' when it comes to helping drink offenders. I hope and pray that ONE DAY AA WILL be acepted as a valuable resource to the professional sector.

Patsyd1

I am not interested where they come from or how they got here.......... see whether they stop drinking or not isn't why I show up at meetings one day at a time. It matters little to this drunk how the newcomer got here..... because they help me to stay sober one day at a time....... whether they get sober or not.

So for this drunk....... I say........ send them on to us, court ordered or not. Because they just might hear something, and the truth of the matter is this......... whether they hear something or not, whether they get sober isn't why I am here. I am here to pass on what was passed to me freely, so that I can stay sober for one more day........I can't keep it unless I give it away.
So whether they hear something or not, whether they are court ordered or not isn't my problem. My problem is ME, my attitudes, my thinking, my actions and my deeds.

I thank God for every alky coming through those of AA......no matter where they are coming from or being sent from....... because I get to give this gift away, so that I may keep it..........whether they want it..... or not doesn't matter. Because I only know one thing today.......... I want it

Love
Patsy

Adamus

If I'm not mistaken, I think GSO covers this in a pamphlet or... here it is:

http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/...pwithcourt.pdf

You can reach this by:

1) go to http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/

2) Click on "Services for Members"

3) Click on "A.A. Guidelines" on the left hand side

4) Select the guideline in the drop box for "Cooperating with Court, D.W.I. and Similar Programs"

5) If you have further questions, consult your higher power and contact your sponsor

P.S. - After all, we did take out "honest" from the desire qualification. Can't keep 'em out, but don't have to sign slips as was said.

Mogqua

Co-operation is not affiliation so there is no 6th tradition break. that would only be if you put out flyers or the like stating that this is where you come to get your court cards signed. At our meetings it is left to the discretion of the secretary to whose cards are signed and whose are not. If they hanging out and not in the meeting. no signature. If they are there but listening to a walkman - then let the artist formerly known as sign their card. If the secretary doesn't want to sign anyones card than they aren't.
Because you are so close to the court, I would suggest to the group conscience that you don't sign and that you close the meeting so as not to have to shut it down. But that's just my not-so-humble-opinion, and what do I know?

Matt V.

As I said, it was decided that we don't sign papers at the noon meeting, but the issue still pops up at business meetings every couple of months. Some of the pressure to change the policy is coming from another group - they're now the only downtown, noon-time meeting that signs papers, and even though they have a much larger meeting room they're having problems with the behaviors of the court-ordered people. I don't want to sound cold, but as far as I'm concerned it's up to them to find a solution to the problem without trying to involve another group. These are not the only two meetings these people could attend. (If they were to ask me my opinion, I'd tell them to simply stop signing papers. There are approximately three hundred meetings on this island each week, at all times of the day and night. Very few of them do not sign court papers.)

Mogqua

Each group is autonomous and it is wrong for them to try and pressure your group. As far as it coming up every couple of months at a business meeting - let it. Shows a healthy business meeting in my opinion and you never know - things could change!
What happens at their business meetings? Stressing autonomy here is the best defense and just may make them learn something too.

Chy

Very interesting perspectives.. As Patsy said, and I'll have to agree.. I can only hope someone's card that I sign will let them see what we have, and eventually be there on their on accord.

Matt V.

I guess I've just seen way too little good come of this practice, as opposed to problems that can result from it, to see any justification for it. If the courts want proof that these people are going to meetings, let their P.O.'s go with 'em.

Chy

To bad not everyone can see the beauty AA can offer! We're a fortunate bunch!

Matt V.

And no one can be made to see anything. They first have to want to at least look.

Patsyd1

For this drunk, each and every one of those drunks coming through the doors of AA for the first time, no matter where they are coming from, reminds me of where I came from....... and helps me to stay grateful for what I have today....... and what I have today is "There by the Grace of God.... Go I"

What comes of this? I get to walk away sober whether they do or not, and I get to keep gratitude in my heart for another day of sobriety. I am not there to keep them sober, I am there to stay sober myself, and to help another sick and suffering alcoholic to achieve sobriety. That alone...does it for this drunk. Because today, the only problem that I have...... is ME

We do not know who will hear the message, or who might keep coming or who may stay sober because they heard something or saw something that they want. If I take the attitude with any alcoholic that YOU are not welcomed here at this AA meeting...... then I am putting my own sobriety at risk, because I NEED them, much much more than they NEED me.
I was given this gift freely........and yes it is a gift, and one in which I cherish.......and the only way for me to keep this gift....... is to give it away..... freely, as it was given to this drunk.

God speaks through the group conscience........ if the group has voted that there will be no slips signed at this AA meeting........ then that would be best announced at the opening of the AA meeting. If this decision is being questioned at the AA group business meetings, then so be it. Thats what an AA group business meeting is for.

No one can be made to see anything, thats so true.

What else is so true is that when we share our own experience, strength and hope from the podium, none of us knows who may hear the message of hope........none of us knows who will come through those doors of AA whether from a court order, or from anywhere else and just may hear exactly what they need to hear........ whether they came there wanting to look, wanting to hear, wanting to get sober or not. None of us knows who may hear something at an AA meeting and remember it months or years later.......and come back through those doors of AA. We share to stay sober ourselves, and to help another sick and suffering alky to achieve sobriety. We never know who may hear the message or who we may help to achieve sobriety or who may want it.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking......... but we don't know who will come through those doors of AA without any desire to stay sober at all....... and hear something that just may help them to come through those doors again, this time with a desire to stop drinking.

I am so very grateful that when I came through those doors of AA, that they put their hand out to me and said "Welcome, we are so glad you are here". They didn't ask me where I came from or if I met with their approval........ they simply "Welcomed" this drunk, and they told me to keep coming no matter what.

I was so sick when I first came though those doors of AA that if they had been standing in judgement of me, or where I came from, or how I got here............ I would be dead now.

Thank you God for those drunks who give it away for one reason and one reason only......... so that they can stay sober, and pass on what was given to them freely,........ because we just don't get to know who will want it and who won't....... because thats just not our job to determine who wants it and who doesn't.

Love
Patsy

Chy

Patsy!!:clap

Matt V.

Surprisingly enough , we seem to have strayed from the original point, which was whether or not the signing of court papers is really in keeping with all of the traditions. I recall an incident that could have had serious consequences (it didn't) when a member's anonymity was broken by someone who was court-ordered to AA. There were no repercussions, but if there had been, then whose responsibilty would it have been? The person that broke another's anonymity out of ignorance? The group's? The judge that sentenced that person to AA in the first place?

This is another one of those issues for which there is probably no solution that would be satisfactory to everyone.

Adamus

Matt, are you reading the posts above? I think many people have commented on why it is not a break in the Traditions. I think there is solution to the problem, and that if it is posed to a well informed group conscience, an answer appropriate to the group will come. Sign, don't sign. Take a CPC presentation to the judge and court staff, start an informational PI meeting for people who need papers signed so that they can know which meetings are open and which will sign. I especially recommend giving the link I put up a good read. I think that will answer a lot of questions about this topic. -Adam

Patsyd1

Hi Matt,

There are no Traditions being broken when it comes to signing court orders slips for those who are ordered to come to an AA meeting. Courts, judges, and the signing of the slips, do not break any of our Traditions. We are not affliated with the courts, the slips, or the judges. Its an outside issue.

Each AA group is atonomous and therefore can decide through the their own group conscience just how they wish to handle court slips.

Regarding this court ordered individual who broke someones anonymity? I love what Bill W wrote on page 28 of "As Bill Sees It".....

"Troublemakers Can Be Teachers"

"Few of us are any longer afraid of what any newcomer can do to our AA reputation or effectiveness. Those who slip, those who panhandle, those who scandalize, those with mental twists, those who rebel at the program, those who trade on the AA reputation - all such persons seldom harm an AA group for long.

Some of these have become our most respected and best loved. Some have remained to try our patience, sober nevertheless. Others have drifted away. We have begun to regard the troublesome ones not a menaces, but rather as our teachers. They oblige us to cultivate patience, tolerance and humility. We finally see that they are only people sicker than the rest of us, that we who condemn them are the Pharisees whose false righteousness does our group the deeper spiritual damage."

"Grapevine, August 1946"


I do believe what Bill W. was speaking of is that those who are sicker then us will come through those doors........ they do not have what we have YET. Who is really the concern then? Is it us who have given this gift and choose not use patience, tolerance and humility when it comes to our sicker alcoholic brother or sister.......but to see only the negative out of any situation?
Or is the concern really a thinnly veiled and pious way of some to feel "better than?"

For this drunk, when anyone breaks any of the Traditions it is then that presents the greatest opportunity for us as individual AA members and for AA as a whole. It presents the opportunity to Pass on what was passed to us.... The Twelve Traditions"

Many a time this kind of situation can present itself as a wonderful teaching tool about our Traditions..... and it presents us all with the gift of learning..... patience, tolerance, and humility.

When I first came through the doors of AA, I had no idea, no knowledge at all of how this wonderful fellowship was held together. It was shown to me through the actions of those who did know and abided by the 12 Traditions. They happily passed it on to this drunk....... along with the 12 Steps......... and they this wonderful knowledge on with patience, tolerance and humility.

They didn't judge me for something that I simply had no knowledge of......... they shared what they had with me, they gave to me freely, and they simply asked me to pass it on.


No individual that has come through the doors of AA has harmed the AA group more than those who have been given the gift of sobriety and they take this gift to..... "view with alarm"


"Love their best, and never fear their worst"

Love,
Patsy