Unhappy with the 12 and 12
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 112
LOL !!
I'd like to believe that I'm 'saved' and because Jesus died for me I'll never drink again (and automatically end up in heaven vs hell) but a. I'm Catholic and b. I'm in AA.
So I ask God to keep me sober every morning and thank him every night and also ask him to have mercy on me (because I have no problem with being called a sinner, since if there is such a thing as sin I certainly indulge in it).
I am always a bit scared of falling off the beam. And yet I do trust in God and rely on Him. It's me that I don't trust. And that's why I go to meetings and work the steps. I can't say church gives me anything like what AA does, but it does give me something unique and spiritual. To each his own as far as that goes.
I have trouble believing that God would give a person the grace to overcome an addiction and allow that person to have a relationship with him for a period of time and then ship that person off to hell because they weren't in a non-denominational dispensational church.
But the Bible Christian is only saving his soul and really, only in the abstract.
The alcoholic is saving his butt in the hear and now.
It's comparing apples and oranges really. IMHO of course.
I'd like to believe that I'm 'saved' and because Jesus died for me I'll never drink again (and automatically end up in heaven vs hell) but a. I'm Catholic and b. I'm in AA.
So I ask God to keep me sober every morning and thank him every night and also ask him to have mercy on me (because I have no problem with being called a sinner, since if there is such a thing as sin I certainly indulge in it).
I am always a bit scared of falling off the beam. And yet I do trust in God and rely on Him. It's me that I don't trust. And that's why I go to meetings and work the steps. I can't say church gives me anything like what AA does, but it does give me something unique and spiritual. To each his own as far as that goes.
I have trouble believing that God would give a person the grace to overcome an addiction and allow that person to have a relationship with him for a period of time and then ship that person off to hell because they weren't in a non-denominational dispensational church.
But the Bible Christian is only saving his soul and really, only in the abstract.
The alcoholic is saving his butt in the hear and now.
It's comparing apples and oranges really. IMHO of course.
Originally Posted by jimhere 
Oh, if you ask him, he'll give you the whole story of how we are miserable sinners and how God sent his son to die for us and how that is only one and true way, but that's about as far as he can get. He can tell me why I am going to a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth and lakes fire to spend my eternity, but other than the fact that he says that he is "saved," he can't really tell me why he believes that. It's called shallow, emotional, superstition.
To me, it (God if you will) has to be a little more than an imaginary friend or an abstract idea. It has to be a little bigger than my Little Buddy HP that's over there or out there or that I'll meet in the future and who goes to bat for me and bails me out of a jam now and then. In other words, it's not an idea, it is an experience, a direct experience that I can only experience right here, right now.
He hasn't taken the time to explore of even investigate what he believes, the how and why of the doctrine so to speak. He just believes it because the preacher and the Bible tells him to. He is no different than the A.A. lemmings who can recite the steps off the wall, but can't really tell you what taking The Third Step means. Everybody just blindly throws slogans and clinches around without knowing what they mean. Stuff like 90 in 90 that came to us from N.A. via the treatment centers, everyone just assumes has always been "A.A." I should stop here, this is coming dangerously close to a rant.
I'm not quite sure how this is connected to all of this, but this came to me: Some years back, a guy I sponsor approached me and asked me about what I thought about him going to a Native American sweat lodge. I asked him if he knew anything about it, did he know that it was a ceremony of prayer and cleansing? I told him to go sit with an elder and learn about it before went and did it. I asked him how he would feel if I came to his church (Catholic) and took communion, even though I don't buy the doctrine.
The spiritual life isn't parlor tricks and you don't approach something sacred in a frivolous manner.
To me, it (God if you will) has to be a little more than an imaginary friend or an abstract idea. It has to be a little bigger than my Little Buddy HP that's over there or out there or that I'll meet in the future and who goes to bat for me and bails me out of a jam now and then. In other words, it's not an idea, it is an experience, a direct experience that I can only experience right here, right now.
He hasn't taken the time to explore of even investigate what he believes, the how and why of the doctrine so to speak. He just believes it because the preacher and the Bible tells him to. He is no different than the A.A. lemmings who can recite the steps off the wall, but can't really tell you what taking The Third Step means. Everybody just blindly throws slogans and clinches around without knowing what they mean. Stuff like 90 in 90 that came to us from N.A. via the treatment centers, everyone just assumes has always been "A.A." I should stop here, this is coming dangerously close to a rant.
I'm not quite sure how this is connected to all of this, but this came to me: Some years back, a guy I sponsor approached me and asked me about what I thought about him going to a Native American sweat lodge. I asked him if he knew anything about it, did he know that it was a ceremony of prayer and cleansing? I told him to go sit with an elder and learn about it before went and did it. I asked him how he would feel if I came to his church (Catholic) and took communion, even though I don't buy the doctrine.
The spiritual life isn't parlor tricks and you don't approach something sacred in a frivolous manner.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
I think the 12 and 12 is fine as long as I remember it was a book written by one man ( basically). Alot of folks make issues out of Bill's mental state and his adulterous ways; I don't think that matters at all. First off:
Bill was placed on a huge pedestal- imagine the conflict that must have caused within the mind of a power hungry alcoholic? The fact that he continued to do the right thing most of the time is a testament to what must have been an incredible personal program. I could go on and on about why all the variables around this are not that important but I will then be late for my 12 and 12 meeting tonight (HAH!).
The 12 and 12 is Bill's personal view, not the program of AA. If I wrote a series of essays about the 12 steps some of you might really like it, others might say I am full of it!
Bill tells us on page 17 of that book where the program can be found. It is us who use it wrong. it is us who tell newcomers to read it before the Big Book ( if we indeed tell them to use the BB at all!)
I look at the book as the teenage years of AA. It has some radical paradigm shifts in it. It tries to explain something that mere words cannot always bring to any clear understanding, and it opens doors to the future state of our program.
I will always be indebted to that book as the thing that brought me closer to the prayer of St Francis.
Bill was placed on a huge pedestal- imagine the conflict that must have caused within the mind of a power hungry alcoholic? The fact that he continued to do the right thing most of the time is a testament to what must have been an incredible personal program. I could go on and on about why all the variables around this are not that important but I will then be late for my 12 and 12 meeting tonight (HAH!).
The 12 and 12 is Bill's personal view, not the program of AA. If I wrote a series of essays about the 12 steps some of you might really like it, others might say I am full of it!
Bill tells us on page 17 of that book where the program can be found. It is us who use it wrong. it is us who tell newcomers to read it before the Big Book ( if we indeed tell them to use the BB at all!)
felt like, when reading the 12x12, that I must disavow any previous spiritual experience as the random sentimentality of a drunk. OK maybe some were... but certainly not all, and not only that, I'm keepin' them.
I will always be indebted to that book as the thing that brought me closer to the prayer of St Francis.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
By drinking booze or taking certain drugs, that's like merely removing the clouds that are in the way of us achieving a state of consciousness which is always there... or our "true Self" or what some may call "God" or Truth.
I have led an INTENSLEY spiritual life.
The ... I dunno... committment?
To that life is how I am an alcoholioc
who didn't take up drinking
until I was 42.
WHen I lost my 'faith'.
The above boxed -in quote is erroneous.l
The System of Knowledge I studied for thirty years
has, as a ... 'side specialty'
the use of 'teacher plants' in its curriculum.
(trying to put modern, easily associative terms
on acts and processes that are thousands of years old)
Teacher planst do NOT and can Not
take the consciousness to 'see God'.
Any South American Sorcerer worth his/her salt will confirm this.
And Dogan Sorcerer can also verify this is wrong.
Teacher plants simply facilitate
usually through toxins
asnd poisoning the body
to induce a euphoria
as is experienced in the dying process
a SIMILAR consciousness experience
to heightened awareness.
It makes a FAKE awareness.
In ancient times
teacher plants were used
to create these false states of awareness
to teach the student
what to continue to work to achieve.
They were NEVER the end.
They weren't even really a MEANS to any end,
other than to give a general idea
of what can be expected
when the student
or warrior
reached enlightenment.
ok. class dismissed.
LOL!
Sorry - hit a nerve there.
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Hey Steve good to see you.
I was commenting on our little social group about this.
I make no secret of what I think about Bill's program, but at the same how could I not love the guy?
Just think if he had followed the advice of people like Gerard Heard, Aldous Huxley, and Christopher Isherwood and went off to the California desert to go deep into Eastern Religion and meditation we would have never had the benefit of his writings, and of him writing The Traditions and Concepts. Bill probably would have found the peace he was looking for, but we wouldn't have those gifts that he gave us.
Bill was the one who paid the price for his failure to follow the program he wrote. Well, maybe Lois paid a bit of a price too. But that was her fault for sticking with him.
I was commenting on our little social group about this.
I make no secret of what I think about Bill's program, but at the same how could I not love the guy?
Just think if he had followed the advice of people like Gerard Heard, Aldous Huxley, and Christopher Isherwood and went off to the California desert to go deep into Eastern Religion and meditation we would have never had the benefit of his writings, and of him writing The Traditions and Concepts. Bill probably would have found the peace he was looking for, but we wouldn't have those gifts that he gave us.
Bill was the one who paid the price for his failure to follow the program he wrote. Well, maybe Lois paid a bit of a price too. But that was her fault for sticking with him.
Last edited by jimhere; 12-13-2009 at 04:47 PM.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
oh. PS -
Nobody but nobody defines for me whether my experience is Spiritual or not.
Went there, did all of it - got the Jacket.
So I think Cube was completely justified in rebellion
to an alien book defining or limiting what Cube experiences as 'Spiritual'.
The only thing it fails to do, in my opinion,
is to inspire anyone to seek further on their own.
Nobody but nobody defines for me whether my experience is Spiritual or not.
Went there, did all of it - got the Jacket.
So I think Cube was completely justified in rebellion
to an alien book defining or limiting what Cube experiences as 'Spiritual'.
The only thing it fails to do, in my opinion,
is to inspire anyone to seek further on their own.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Cool Barb...
It's been like thirty years, but I loved the Carlos Casteneda books about his works with Don Juan... A Yaqui way of Knowledge... If I remember right, there was a similar idea in those teachings... IDK, maybe it's the same.
Key word, Fake.
Well, I lovvvved hallucinogens when I was much younger. The closest I got to a spiritual experience was sitting in my attic when I was in high school trippin' on some really good orange sunshine... listening to an extended Grateful Dead jam studying a book of prints showing the work of Dali. I thought I had reached spiritual enlightenment at the time.
FYI... this is definitely NOT one of those spiritual experiences I'm keeping as bona fide....
... though it was a high moment in some of those early "adventures".... Note the cubes making up the cross... lol
Mark
It's been like thirty years, but I loved the Carlos Casteneda books about his works with Don Juan... A Yaqui way of Knowledge... If I remember right, there was a similar idea in those teachings... IDK, maybe it's the same.
Key word, Fake.
Well, I lovvvved hallucinogens when I was much younger. The closest I got to a spiritual experience was sitting in my attic when I was in high school trippin' on some really good orange sunshine... listening to an extended Grateful Dead jam studying a book of prints showing the work of Dali. I thought I had reached spiritual enlightenment at the time.
FYI... this is definitely NOT one of those spiritual experiences I'm keeping as bona fide....
... though it was a high moment in some of those early "adventures".... Note the cubes making up the cross... lol Mark
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
no sorry -
this stupid computer - it's cutting me off...
and every time I'm trying to post -
it's taking me to some stupid search engine!
I'm at work
and no telling WHAT
my co-workers have done to this poor thing.
I was referring back to the original post on this thread
that cubile was talking about.
I just didn't get a chance to finish it.
Cube was saying that feeling resentful about being told what is or is not spiritual
and having it assumed anything bwefore AA wasn't qualifiable as spiritual ...
I was agreeing that nobody defines or qualifies what is 'spiritual' for me.
because EVERYTHING... is Spiritual.
We're Spiritual beings
manifest here for an earthly experience.
Not Earthly beings
clamoring for a single spiritual experience.
this stupid computer - it's cutting me off...
and every time I'm trying to post -
it's taking me to some stupid search engine!
I'm at work
and no telling WHAT
my co-workers have done to this poor thing.
I was referring back to the original post on this thread
that cubile was talking about.
I just didn't get a chance to finish it.
Cube was saying that feeling resentful about being told what is or is not spiritual
and having it assumed anything bwefore AA wasn't qualifiable as spiritual ...
I was agreeing that nobody defines or qualifies what is 'spiritual' for me.
because EVERYTHING... is Spiritual.
We're Spiritual beings
manifest here for an earthly experience.
Not Earthly beings
clamoring for a single spiritual experience.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
it's just that
by the time I get something to actuallyPOST
so much TIME has gone by on the thread
it's off=topic by then!
I'd laugh if it wouldn't knock me back to freaking 'ask.com'.
by the time I get something to actuallyPOST
so much TIME has gone by on the thread
it's off=topic by then!
I'd laugh if it wouldn't knock me back to freaking 'ask.com'.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
Originally Posted by barb dwyer
no sorry -
this stupid computer - it's cutting me off...
and every time I'm trying to post -
it's taking me to some stupid search engine!
I'm at work
and no telling WHAT
my co-workers have done to this poor thing.
I was referring back to the original post on this thread
that cubile was talking about.
I just didn't get a chance to finish it.
Cube was saying that feeling resentful about being told what is or is not spiritual
and having it assumed anything bwefore AA wasn't qualifiable as spiritual ...
I was agreeing that nobody defines or qualifies what is 'spiritual' for me.
because EVERYTHING... is Spiritual.
We're Spiritual beings
manifest here for an earthly experience.
Not Earthly beings
clamoring for a single spiritual experience.
this stupid computer - it's cutting me off...
and every time I'm trying to post -
it's taking me to some stupid search engine!
I'm at work
and no telling WHAT
my co-workers have done to this poor thing.
I was referring back to the original post on this thread
that cubile was talking about.
I just didn't get a chance to finish it.
Cube was saying that feeling resentful about being told what is or is not spiritual
and having it assumed anything bwefore AA wasn't qualifiable as spiritual ...
I was agreeing that nobody defines or qualifies what is 'spiritual' for me.
because EVERYTHING... is Spiritual.
We're Spiritual beings
manifest here for an earthly experience.
Not Earthly beings
clamoring for a single spiritual experience.
Throw the computer out into the parking lot and then they'll get you a new one.
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
while I understand
the 12X12 might be helpful for someone
who'd never been around spirituality
and for those who might need
some idea
how to design a spiritual
rather thana religiously defined
paradigm for experience....
it was like reading Dick and Jane for me.
Although I found the one tiny part
about the abolitionists interesting.
Don't ask what step or tradition that was in
I don't remember.
But at the time
it was something I didn't know.
the 12X12 might be helpful for someone
who'd never been around spirituality
and for those who might need
some idea
how to design a spiritual
rather thana religiously defined
paradigm for experience....
it was like reading Dick and Jane for me.
Although I found the one tiny part
about the abolitionists interesting.
Don't ask what step or tradition that was in
I don't remember.
But at the time
it was something I didn't know.
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
I make no secret of what I think about Bill's program, but at the same how could I not love the guy?
How can we not love the guy?
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
I stopped "idolizing" heroes in my early twenties, Joe Montana and Ronnie Lott being the last two, but I have to admit I derive vast amusement from people calling Bill W MOTR, and then claim to be BB fundamentalists and work the program "out of the book", considering he is the one that founded the program, put together all the information from Dr Silkworth, Carl Jung, The Oxford group, etc he wrote the Big Book, wrote the 12 and 12, and yes I know about his philandering, here is what I see from this behavior:
When people start calling Bill MOTR I am sorry, I just think that's a bit to the right of Attila The Hun, especially when they deify Dr Bob, an ass doctor who was passed out under the table on mother's day the day Bill called IIRC, all his dealings with spirituality and God and The Oxford Group didn't keep him sober until Bill came along and taught him about alcoholism, what Carl Jung taught him, what Dr Silkworth taught him.
Yeah he was a great guy, but to knock one and deify the other is impossible IMO, They were both humans who did an incredible thing. When is the last time anyone here saved millions of lives?
:crickets:
Bill was human, big F'ing deal, I suspect Bill W has helped more people then everyone here at SR.
A lot more.
He wrote the very book he is being judged by and slandered with. Everyone here is sober because of his efforts initially in founding this program and writing this book.
So for me, I got a ton out of the 12 by 12, it was a great companion to the BB, and helped me get a ton of stuff I had originally missed.
Bill Wilson MOTR
Pfffft
IMO thats the same kind of mindset that kills in the name of love, or Jesus, which is the same thing, and as you all know I am no Christian, it just misses the point of the thing.
In a perverse way we can actually take satisfaction from the fact that many people annoy us, for it brings a comfortable feeling of superiority. Gossip barbed with our anger, a polite form of murder by character assassination, has its satisfactions for us, too. Here we are not trying to help those we criticize; we are trying to proclaim our own righteousness.
Yeah he was a great guy, but to knock one and deify the other is impossible IMO, They were both humans who did an incredible thing. When is the last time anyone here saved millions of lives?
:crickets:
Bill was human, big F'ing deal, I suspect Bill W has helped more people then everyone here at SR.
A lot more.
He wrote the very book he is being judged by and slandered with. Everyone here is sober because of his efforts initially in founding this program and writing this book.
So for me, I got a ton out of the 12 by 12, it was a great companion to the BB, and helped me get a ton of stuff I had originally missed.
Bill Wilson MOTR
Pfffft
IMO thats the same kind of mindset that kills in the name of love, or Jesus, which is the same thing, and as you all know I am no Christian, it just misses the point of the thing.
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Location: Pugetopolis
Posts: 2,384
I don't believe that Dr. Bob needs deification anymore any more than Bill Wilson does. From what I know, neither of them would be comfortable with it, although I think Bill might secretly like it a little bit. I can say that because I know that about myself, and I suspect I am more like Bill than Bob.
Once again, Bill, by his own admission admitted that his program was lacking. I don't believe that takes away from what he gave us. And, like I have said before, Bill was the one who paid the price, not us. If anything, we're benefiting from it.
And I will submit that each of us here who does the work, the passing on of what was freely given us, has probably touched, and yes, maybe even saved more lives than we suspect.
Once again, Bill, by his own admission admitted that his program was lacking. I don't believe that takes away from what he gave us. And, like I have said before, Bill was the one who paid the price, not us. If anything, we're benefiting from it.
And I will submit that each of us here who does the work, the passing on of what was freely given us, has probably touched, and yes, maybe even saved more lives than we suspect.
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,861
I think Bill might secretly like it a little bit.
How do you think he would relish and be revolted by As Bill Sees It? Formerly title the AA way of Life.
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Location: Southern Colorado
Posts: 1,167
I agree that Bill was some kind of spook when he wrote what he did of that Big Book, even if he did do a little cutting and pasting. The formation of the 12 Traditions and the 12 Concepts... they have yet to show their full legacy and purpose. I'm sure that Bill W was on fire for quite some time and dedicated the rest of his life at his desk... to serve us.
But the states of his consciousness throughout his later life was no picnic... and a testament as to why we do steps yearly. We also continue to stay plugged into 10, 11, and 12 throughout our life and know that we must continue forward on this spiritual path. We have become addicted to the world of the Spirit. It's easier said than done. It's a wonder some of us don't float of into space or become invisible... aka die a bodily death. Oh, that's right! We do that too. Who's to say what our states of consciousness are after we leave this body.Yet we all judge the one whe DOES commit suicide.
I think Bill was different from some of us, that he had such powerful spiritual experiences early on... thank God it lead him to his altruistic path. I'm seeing that some of these "mystics" have a hard time finding usefulness and purpose with the human condition.
To pull yourself out of the human condition and work your way towards the World of the Spirit and away from what can be reached from the ego, we must live in Truth. You then pull from the universe the power to face those consequences and keep moving on up. But if you live a lie, your antennae is set to negative and you cannot transcend on to those higher states.
So... I would definitely have gone to Bill to discuss experience with regards to say... alcoholism, but not so much things like relationship advice or fidelity. Oh, but we're only human, right?
But the states of his consciousness throughout his later life was no picnic... and a testament as to why we do steps yearly. We also continue to stay plugged into 10, 11, and 12 throughout our life and know that we must continue forward on this spiritual path. We have become addicted to the world of the Spirit. It's easier said than done. It's a wonder some of us don't float of into space or become invisible... aka die a bodily death. Oh, that's right! We do that too. Who's to say what our states of consciousness are after we leave this body.Yet we all judge the one whe DOES commit suicide.
I think Bill was different from some of us, that he had such powerful spiritual experiences early on... thank God it lead him to his altruistic path. I'm seeing that some of these "mystics" have a hard time finding usefulness and purpose with the human condition.
To pull yourself out of the human condition and work your way towards the World of the Spirit and away from what can be reached from the ego, we must live in Truth. You then pull from the universe the power to face those consequences and keep moving on up. But if you live a lie, your antennae is set to negative and you cannot transcend on to those higher states.
So... I would definitely have gone to Bill to discuss experience with regards to say... alcoholism, but not so much things like relationship advice or fidelity. Oh, but we're only human, right?
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David Hawkins is good stuff - interesting at worst. "I" have 2 of the books Patrick lists above, and have done some of the "tests" he outlines in Power vs Force. Though I think he's a bit of a quack, those books have some really great stuff...
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So... I would definitely have gone to Bill to discuss experience with regards to say... alcoholism, but not so much things like relationship advice or fidelity
Seems a double standard to not have a sponsor because you don't want anyone to get all up in your grill, and call you on your BS, and then turn around and do the same to Bill.
The Carpenter said something about casting the first stone.
This isn't philanders anonymous, or SLAA, or SAA or relationship advice anonymous, it's alcoholics anonymous, and it's about how to recover from my alcoholism. I was told at my first meeting, you never have to drink again, not you never have to cheat on your wife again, or all your money troubles will disappear.
So Bill was probably Bi-polar, or a self admitted "depressive" at the very least, and one of the ways he tried to self medicate was knocking off pieces on the side, since we now know the "intrigue" of sexual pursuit releases the same endorphins as many drugs, so here we get to write off our pasts to alcoholism, we work the steps and get a free pass going forward (as long as we continue to work them) and then we take the gift so freely given us and use it to take our founders inventory and run him down?
I try to take my inventory, not the other man's, and I try to work my program, not the other man's, and I have learned I can only work one program at a time, myself or the other man's, although, I have often wanted to rewrite the tenth step as well to say we continued to take other peoples inventory, and when they were wrong, pointed it out to them and others.
Gossip is Gossip is Gossip, a form of feeling smug and superior to those around us, whether it's about someone living or dead, and I've been taught it's a soul sickness in it's own right, and quite frankly, my program friends don't let me do it, they interrupt me when I start.
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I like the fact that Bill was human and we all know it.
I wouldn't feel comfortable following a guy who I thought was perfect, that just ain't natural !!
Now I know that Bill writes from experience. It makes the 12/12 that much more meaningful to me. If we all repeated some fairy tale of Bill and Bob being holier than thou that would turn me off. JMHO.
I wouldn't feel comfortable following a guy who I thought was perfect, that just ain't natural !!
Now I know that Bill writes from experience. It makes the 12/12 that much more meaningful to me. If we all repeated some fairy tale of Bill and Bob being holier than thou that would turn me off. JMHO.
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