Unhappy with the 12 and 12
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Unhappy with the 12 and 12
At our last step meeting, we read the second step from the 12 and 12. I was disappointed. What bugged me is that there was some inference that perhaps spiritual experiences had while we were still drinking were not that at all... more like misplaced emotional sentiment....
BS I say.
I had some wonderful and life changing spiritual experiences that pre-date my entry to AA.
The Big Book says no such thing... in fact, it says that we don't want to close the door or forget about our past.
It just kind of bugged me, I guess... I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, but I am wondering if others have some specific experiences with the 12 and 12 that left them scratching their heads....
Mark
BS I say.
I had some wonderful and life changing spiritual experiences that pre-date my entry to AA.
The Big Book says no such thing... in fact, it says that we don't want to close the door or forget about our past.
It just kind of bugged me, I guess... I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, but I am wondering if others have some specific experiences with the 12 and 12 that left them scratching their heads....
Mark
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I think the Step 2 section of the 12 & 12 is badly worded in parts. Some of its points were helpful to me - I identified with the person who hadn't adhered as well as he thought he had, making me as agnostic as the next person of course. But there are passages that appear unhelpful to the non-theistic. I think the underlying aim is good, to level the playing field by proving that we were all agnostic in some way however religious we were, because we didn't believe that any greater power, however able to solve others' problems, had a size and shape to fit us as individuals.
I would have to add that the assumption of the writer is probably the same as my own, that over the course of a lifetime many spiritual experiences may have come about each with their value which is not diminished by a perspective that I had come unstuck a little in some ways.
Life is a massive journey, there isn't only one decisive moment in it (or if there is we get nearer to it as we get older). The various moments all had their significance and I think the writers took that as read.
The sentimental person is only one example among several that they pick. I had been through that phase but its effects have fortunately been eroded more recently - partly through being in the Fellowship and studying the Steps this far with the friend I call my sponsor, and partly through other events.
I think this section of the 12 & 12 picks several different examples so that one may identify with none, one or any number of them, if one wishes.
I would have to add that the assumption of the writer is probably the same as my own, that over the course of a lifetime many spiritual experiences may have come about each with their value which is not diminished by a perspective that I had come unstuck a little in some ways.
Life is a massive journey, there isn't only one decisive moment in it (or if there is we get nearer to it as we get older). The various moments all had their significance and I think the writers took that as read.
The sentimental person is only one example among several that they pick. I had been through that phase but its effects have fortunately been eroded more recently - partly through being in the Fellowship and studying the Steps this far with the friend I call my sponsor, and partly through other events.
I think this section of the 12 & 12 picks several different examples so that one may identify with none, one or any number of them, if one wishes.
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I have the 12 x 12. And I go to meetings that read/study out of it. I've learned to take it with a grain of salt... or a mad dash of hot sauce... which ever is handy.
I look at it as Bill's static experience... oh and that of whomever helped him write it. But the rule I always use is this; Big Book > 12 x 12. Always.
The 12 and 12 infers and it concludes. The Big Book is open-ended. Get your own experience. That's the problem with the stories in the back too. They have some nifty stuff in there. Then it winds up becoming the next A.A. slogan. Ask if that's true for you or not. Dispell it if it isn't.
I, for one, don't like Bill's statement that the only step you can take 100% is step one. What does that do with the path of consideration? Considering times when you tried to control your drinking? Times you didn't get drunk or times you stopped or stayed stopped? Circumstances you drank under? Times you drank under emotional turmoil? If you can make an alcoholic out of anybody by using mind control, are we doing our job? If you can muster willingness by striving for this 100%, do we really need A.A., God, you folks? I just don't like that statement. I like the path of consideration and keep all the other steps plugged into step 1. I can look at my actions and see how 100% I really am. How many newcomers have I pitched this week? How's that 4th step coming? Am I balking on my 5th step? How's those amends coming? How's that prayer and meditation? Do I have a relationship with God? How much time do I give Him in the morning, at night, throughout the day?
My actions tell me how 100% I am. It's not a thought in my head... a mental checkmark.
But... I'm starting to like the 12 x 12... depending on what we're reading and when we're reading it.
I look at it as Bill's static experience... oh and that of whomever helped him write it. But the rule I always use is this; Big Book > 12 x 12. Always.
The 12 and 12 infers and it concludes. The Big Book is open-ended. Get your own experience. That's the problem with the stories in the back too. They have some nifty stuff in there. Then it winds up becoming the next A.A. slogan. Ask if that's true for you or not. Dispell it if it isn't.
I, for one, don't like Bill's statement that the only step you can take 100% is step one. What does that do with the path of consideration? Considering times when you tried to control your drinking? Times you didn't get drunk or times you stopped or stayed stopped? Circumstances you drank under? Times you drank under emotional turmoil? If you can make an alcoholic out of anybody by using mind control, are we doing our job? If you can muster willingness by striving for this 100%, do we really need A.A., God, you folks? I just don't like that statement. I like the path of consideration and keep all the other steps plugged into step 1. I can look at my actions and see how 100% I really am. How many newcomers have I pitched this week? How's that 4th step coming? Am I balking on my 5th step? How's those amends coming? How's that prayer and meditation? Do I have a relationship with God? How much time do I give Him in the morning, at night, throughout the day?
My actions tell me how 100% I am. It's not a thought in my head... a mental checkmark.
But... I'm starting to like the 12 x 12... depending on what we're reading and when we're reading it.
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Originally Posted by McGowdog 
The 12 and 12 infers and it concludes. The Big Book is open-ended. Get your own experience.
My experience?
I was dragged into rehab, almost literally, kicking and screaming... not so much because I was in denial but more because I felt like I could recover without the "benefit" of an 18,000$ treatment center experience.
But as part of the breaking down process of my self will, I constantly got the message that I was completely and totally ef'd up... and that those passages in the Hazelden readings was something I'd have to learn to identify with... I got the message that there was nothing "right" about me... that everything I ever did and thought was wrong, somehow...
Maybe that was my own perception and my own initial experience of surrender. I remember that first nite in detox... not sleeping.... I kept singing that Cheap Trick song... Surrender, Surrender, but don't give yourself away.... But for a while, I felt like I had...
So maybe I'm just over sensitive and maybe cynical....
But damn-it, there were and still are good and unbroken parts of me. I get suspicious when I read things, sometimes in the 12 and 12, always in a lot of the sentimental readings from Hazelden... I get the feeling that I'm supposed to see myself as defective, they keep me sick.
The Big Book doesn't do that. It doesn't invalidate the whole of me, it just gives me direction, it points the way to a spiritual solution to my ALCOHOLISM, period.
Get experienced
Thanx
Mark
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I don't think the Big Book says we're sick. What can you do about I'm sick? I'm a liar and a thief, but what can we do about, "I'm sick"?
I have to always realize that I take a part in the transaction.
I had a blast drinking booze and doing drugs. Trippin' Bawls!
We had a blast. Sometimes after a meeting, I reminisce with the guys about the good old days, and I get to laughing so hard, it takes me back... I feel like I'm tripping again... minus the fear and guilt.
It's not my wrongness that screws me up in life now... so much as my rightness. It's my rightness that puts me on a pedestal and separates me from you. To me, it's not about being a goodie goodie boy. I was never a boy scout or a weeblow, and I ain't gonna start up now. The 7th Step enables me to give up the good and the bad of me... and let God decide what I need to use to be helpful to you.
If the book aint pointing me to God, it's not doing its job. The 12 x 12 just explains way too much. Had Bill wrote it right after completing the Big Book, I think it would be worlds apart. But... the traditions would be lacking because those came from our "experience" and "mistakes", right?
I have to always realize that I take a part in the transaction.
I had a blast drinking booze and doing drugs. Trippin' Bawls!
We had a blast. Sometimes after a meeting, I reminisce with the guys about the good old days, and I get to laughing so hard, it takes me back... I feel like I'm tripping again... minus the fear and guilt.It's not my wrongness that screws me up in life now... so much as my rightness. It's my rightness that puts me on a pedestal and separates me from you. To me, it's not about being a goodie goodie boy. I was never a boy scout or a weeblow, and I ain't gonna start up now. The 7th Step enables me to give up the good and the bad of me... and let God decide what I need to use to be helpful to you.
If the book aint pointing me to God, it's not doing its job. The 12 x 12 just explains way too much. Had Bill wrote it right after completing the Big Book, I think it would be worlds apart. But... the traditions would be lacking because those came from our "experience" and "mistakes", right?
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Originally Posted by McGowdog
The 7th Step enables me to give up the good and the bad of me... and let God decide what I need to use to be helpful to you.
Mark
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Don't you mean ((Big Book) > (12 x 12)) ?
Originally Posted by McGowdog
I look at it as Bill's static experience... oh and that of whomever helped him write it. But the rule I always use is this; Big Book > 12 x 12. Always.
.
.
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The 12/12 says that it is a book of essays.
An essay is :
"A short literary composition on a single subject, usually presenting the personal view of the author".
To me, 'personal view of the author' is what's operative here. The BB on the other had is the 'basic text' of AA.
So one is a text and one is Bill W's personal views. Both are important but in rather different ways. IMHO.
essay - definition of essay by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
An essay is :
"A short literary composition on a single subject, usually presenting the personal view of the author".
To me, 'personal view of the author' is what's operative here. The BB on the other had is the 'basic text' of AA.
So one is a text and one is Bill W's personal views. Both are important but in rather different ways. IMHO.
essay - definition of essay by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Originally Posted by Cubile75
At our last step meeting, we read the second step from the 12 and 12. I was disappointed. What bugged me is that there was some inference that perhaps spiritual experiences had while we were still drinking were not that at all... more like misplaced emotional sentiment....
BS I say.
I had some wonderful and life changing spiritual experiences that pre-date my entry to AA.
The Big Book says no such thing... in fact, it says that we don't want to close the door or forget about our past.
It just kind of bugged me, I guess... I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, but I am wondering if others have some specific experiences with the 12 and 12 that left them scratching their heads....
Mark
BS I say.
I had some wonderful and life changing spiritual experiences that pre-date my entry to AA.
The Big Book says no such thing... in fact, it says that we don't want to close the door or forget about our past.
It just kind of bugged me, I guess... I'm not losing sleep over it or anything, but I am wondering if others have some specific experiences with the 12 and 12 that left them scratching their heads....
Mark
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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I almost ended up drinking after starting to read the "12 and 12." Couldn't figure out what was making me so 'hinkey.'
Well the more I read, I got this 'awful' feeling and then it hit me, there is an underlying feeling of the tenets of Catholicism and I just could not handle that, having left the "The Church" at 14 never to return. BTW I had this confirmed to me later by several Old Timers and Lois W. which made me feel better (I wasn't crazy) but still didn't and won't use the "the 12 and 12." That book is just 'not for me.'
The first 164 pages if the BB of AA has served me very well these many years. I am like Carol D, "I leave each person to decide what spiritual experiences HP sends."
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Well the more I read, I got this 'awful' feeling and then it hit me, there is an underlying feeling of the tenets of Catholicism and I just could not handle that, having left the "The Church" at 14 never to return. BTW I had this confirmed to me later by several Old Timers and Lois W. which made me feel better (I wasn't crazy) but still didn't and won't use the "the 12 and 12." That book is just 'not for me.'
The first 164 pages if the BB of AA has served me very well these many years. I am like Carol D, "I leave each person to decide what spiritual experiences HP sends."
J M H O
Love and hugs,
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This is a great thread, and the "thank" button is broken so I have to thank y'all manually. 
I couldn't work out why I felt so different reading the 12 and 12 vs the BB, but you guys have shed some helpful light on it for me.
I couldn't work out why I felt so different reading the 12 and 12 vs the BB, but you guys have shed some helpful light on it for me.
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Originally Posted by Ribeye
Don't you mean ((Big Book) > (12 x 12)) ?
Oh, and 12/12 is 1.
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Originally Posted by Cubile75
I had some wonderful and life changing spiritual experiences that pre-date my entry to AA.
Now I get revelations, epiphanies and serious enlightenment from practicing spiritual principles.
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What has already been said about the 12 & 12 pretty much echoes my sentiments. I don't find it a useful aid to taking the steps, but it's an interesting read. The Catholic influence comes from the fact that Father Ed Dowling was Bill's mentor at the time. Bill was also in the middle of black hole depression when he was writing the book, and that shows.Tom Powers, who helped Bill write the book, thought that the depression was rooted in the fact that Bill couldn't keep it in his pants and was struggling with smoking. Bill was also seeing Dr. Harry Tiebout at the time, seeking help for the depression, and that shows up too. The language in the essay about The Fourth Step is an odd mixture of Catholic guilt and secular psychological language.
About the spiritual experiences:
I have always been seeking a spiritual experience. I kind of intuitively knew that my answer would be spiritual. I just had it backwards. I was seeking a spiritual experience in order to avoid the human experience. As far back as I can remember, I've been looking for "It." "It" was out there somewhere farther down the road. I could not stay put, I couldn't stay focused, I felt out of place. You've heard the story. The Psalmist wrote that he thirsted after God as the deer thirsted after the water in the brook. Augustine wrote that "You made us for Yourself O God, and we are restless until we find rest in Thee." Dr. Carl Jung said that we suffer from a secret unrest that gnaws at the roots of our being and he told Bill Wilson that he thought of alcoholism as a spiritual thirst, a longing for wholeness, union with God. Our book says that we are restless. irritable, and discontent, that we are dis-eased and longing for that sense of ease and comfort. It all means the same and that is what I brought to my first drink. And alcohol changed me. It was a transforming experience, powerful, profound, and instantaneous. They haven't called alcohol spirits by mistake for centuries. That was a spiritual experience I had that day.
Along the way I've also had what I would call some powerful religious experiences with mescaline and peyote. True visions of a bigger reality. I believe that these are genuine experiences. The same when booze worked. But as a friend of mine says, they are borrowed experiences and I don't get to keep them.
When I was seventeen my mom kicked me out of the house and I stayed at my grandma's for a while. Now my grandma was a born again, baptized in The Holy Ghost tongue talking Pentecostal and she was always on my back to go to church. One Wednesday evening, just to get her off my back, I went to church with her. They were singing and praising and it seemed like something was calling to me. When I was seventeen, I already knew that something was real wrong with me. There was an altar call, and I answered it. I went down front and gave my heart to Jesus. I remember kneeling down at that altar and people were laying on hands and talking in tongues and I felt just a deep sense of "Everything is all right right now." I didn't know it then, but I had just made a surrender and I was having an experience like Bill had in Towns Hospital. Unlike Bill I didn't take action on it and it wore off. Maybe if I had followed through with that surrender I would be sober since I was seventeen years old in The Assembly Of God church doing what they do.
"Now I get revelations, epiphanies and serious enlightenment from practicing spiritual principles."
My current experience is the same as Boleo's. Now I don't have to go chasing after it.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
About the spiritual experiences:
I have always been seeking a spiritual experience. I kind of intuitively knew that my answer would be spiritual. I just had it backwards. I was seeking a spiritual experience in order to avoid the human experience. As far back as I can remember, I've been looking for "It." "It" was out there somewhere farther down the road. I could not stay put, I couldn't stay focused, I felt out of place. You've heard the story. The Psalmist wrote that he thirsted after God as the deer thirsted after the water in the brook. Augustine wrote that "You made us for Yourself O God, and we are restless until we find rest in Thee." Dr. Carl Jung said that we suffer from a secret unrest that gnaws at the roots of our being and he told Bill Wilson that he thought of alcoholism as a spiritual thirst, a longing for wholeness, union with God. Our book says that we are restless. irritable, and discontent, that we are dis-eased and longing for that sense of ease and comfort. It all means the same and that is what I brought to my first drink. And alcohol changed me. It was a transforming experience, powerful, profound, and instantaneous. They haven't called alcohol spirits by mistake for centuries. That was a spiritual experience I had that day.
Along the way I've also had what I would call some powerful religious experiences with mescaline and peyote. True visions of a bigger reality. I believe that these are genuine experiences. The same when booze worked. But as a friend of mine says, they are borrowed experiences and I don't get to keep them.
When I was seventeen my mom kicked me out of the house and I stayed at my grandma's for a while. Now my grandma was a born again, baptized in The Holy Ghost tongue talking Pentecostal and she was always on my back to go to church. One Wednesday evening, just to get her off my back, I went to church with her. They were singing and praising and it seemed like something was calling to me. When I was seventeen, I already knew that something was real wrong with me. There was an altar call, and I answered it. I went down front and gave my heart to Jesus. I remember kneeling down at that altar and people were laying on hands and talking in tongues and I felt just a deep sense of "Everything is all right right now." I didn't know it then, but I had just made a surrender and I was having an experience like Bill had in Towns Hospital. Unlike Bill I didn't take action on it and it wore off. Maybe if I had followed through with that surrender I would be sober since I was seventeen years old in The Assembly Of God church doing what they do.
"Now I get revelations, epiphanies and serious enlightenment from practicing spiritual principles."
My current experience is the same as Boleo's. Now I don't have to go chasing after it.
Jim
Big Book references from Alcoholics Anonymous, First Edition
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OK, as I think about Boleo's post (thanx) and Jim's (thanx).
Choosing not to negate important spiritual experiences ... what I know in my heart to be true and honest contact with the Holy Spirit ... because they took place before I began practicing the spiritual principals of AA ... in no way minimizes the importance and beauty of those spiritual principles, nor does it minimize my enthusiasm for this new way of living.
I felt like, when reading the 12x12, that I must disavow any previous spiritual experience as the random sentimentality of a drunk. OK maybe some were... but certainly not all, and not only that, I'm keepin' them.
Thanx for the stimulating discussion.
I fully realize that how I interpreted the essay in the 2nd step of the 12x12 may in no way be what the author intended.
Mark
Choosing not to negate important spiritual experiences ... what I know in my heart to be true and honest contact with the Holy Spirit ... because they took place before I began practicing the spiritual principals of AA ... in no way minimizes the importance and beauty of those spiritual principles, nor does it minimize my enthusiasm for this new way of living.
I felt like, when reading the 12x12, that I must disavow any previous spiritual experience as the random sentimentality of a drunk. OK maybe some were... but certainly not all, and not only that, I'm keepin' them.
Thanx for the stimulating discussion.
I fully realize that how I interpreted the essay in the 2nd step of the 12x12 may in no way be what the author intended.
Mark
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LOL !!!
It wasn't the distributive property that bothered me. It was the space between big and book. Big Book was one variable intuitively but that didn't seem clear to me. (Big Book) or (Big)(Book)
But I actually thought of most of the things you pointed out which probably means I need to get outside more.
I know....I'm a sad man.......lol !!!
It wasn't the distributive property that bothered me. It was the space between big and book. Big Book was one variable intuitively but that didn't seem clear to me. (Big Book) or (Big)(Book)
But I actually thought of most of the things you pointed out which probably means I need to get outside more.
I know....I'm a sad man.......lol !!!
Originally Posted by McGowdog
No, the multiplication operation does not have distributive properties over the Greater Than sign. Besides that, it should be called the 12 AND 12, or the 12 & 12, but I see it commonly written as the 12 x 12. If it was really the 12 x 12, it should be called the 144... in which case it would still be < the Big Book.
Oh, and 12/12 is 1.
Oh, and 12/12 is 1.
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Here's something to chew on. How about Bill's spiritual experience at Winchester Cathederal during WWI?
I always felt he implied that he could have followed that prompting and avoided alot of hardship for himself. He wanted God at that moment and God made Himself known. Bill let it slip away. That's my off the cuff take on it. But I don't think Bill ever said that wasn't a true spiritual experience. It just wasn't the one that got him sober.
When I think about it, I had my share of spiritual experiences also. I never stopped believing in God. The steps were the first time I ever followed any type of spiritual discipline though.
I always felt he implied that he could have followed that prompting and avoided alot of hardship for himself. He wanted God at that moment and God made Himself known. Bill let it slip away. That's my off the cuff take on it. But I don't think Bill ever said that wasn't a true spiritual experience. It just wasn't the one that got him sober.
When I think about it, I had my share of spiritual experiences also. I never stopped believing in God. The steps were the first time I ever followed any type of spiritual discipline though.
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