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Unhappy with the 12 and 12

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Old 12-14-2009, 05:43 PM
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"So Bill was probably Bi-polar, or a self admitted "depressive" at the very least, and one of the ways he tried to self medicate was knocking off pieces on the side, since we now know the "intrigue" of sexual pursuit releases the same endorphins as many drugs, so here we get to write off our pasts to alcoholism, we work the steps and get a free pass going forward (as long as we continue to work them) and then we take the gift so freely given us and use it to take our founders inventory and run him down?"


Interesting take, I hadn't thought of it that way. But lots of truth and definitely something to consider when looking at Bill's life.
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Old 12-14-2009, 09:57 PM
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Mark,
You got Hazelton too. I get being dragged into rehab against your will. I too felt like I could recover without the serious "hotel stay in the bed and breakfast" with the prison guards.
We got every recovery book ever, 12 and 12 and Big B, Basic T, and Hazelton. Rehab was not big on 12 x 12. I had to buy it but I've not opened it yet. Now I don't think I will.
I was told I was a beautiful child of God, and then my counselor told me I was a lying thieving nogood ****. How's that for therapy? So when they gave me the Books I decided I wanted nothing to do with reading them since they lied to me... I've since read the Big B. Not a bad book now. Too many books to read. I know how helpful I've been on this thread. lol but I relate to alot on here.
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:32 PM
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The 12 and 12 is a great book, so very helpful to get a clearer understanding of working the steps. It got my sponsor sober as he came in through a two stepping group who did not want to do the other steps. Just in case anyone stumbles across this thread and gets the impression that the 12 and 12 is not up to much:-)
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Old 12-15-2009, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by meditation View Post
I've since read the Big B. Not a bad book now. Too many books to read.
Hey Meditation

The Big Book is all I really need in terms of formal recovery material. Every time I open it I find something new, or a new way to look at it. It always seem to speak right to me, never down to me and never patronizing. I don't feel sick when I'm done... I am not saying the 12x12 makes me "sick" every time I read it, and I have read it multiple times. When I started this thread I was unhappy with an idea that was presented in the second step. This has turned into quite a thread.

I have no intention of abandoning the 12x12, but I will approach it a little differently than I do the Big Book. I reading all the Hazledon material, at least for now, perhaps I can take a look at it down the road when I am more secure.

I've given up the ACTIVE resentment of the rehab thing. What's done is done..... I am still working, I am sober and I have lots of good days lately. Today my daughter is home from college, my oldest came home on Saturday... So all four kids, my wife and our cat now fill our home once again.... The tree goes up tonight and all is well.....

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Old 12-15-2009, 06:35 AM
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I gave up my resentment over rehab. I still wonder about their treatment methodologies. I don't agree with them all but I am over the anger. It's good to get better, feel better and have more patience.
Not sure how I feel about the 12 and 12. Is it something you need to take your way thru the steps or is it more just a side reading? Cause I've been up and down the steps sideways and back.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ago View Post
Which seems appropriate, since the program Bill founded was called "Alcoholics Anonymous" about how to get and stay sober, and one of the big issues people have with sponsorship are the ones that give/expect relationship advice.
Oh gee thanks for that Andrew. I almost forgot again.

What I was saying is that if Bill could have kept it in his pants and not lied to his wife on a daily basis, he might have got spiritual and been happy instead of depressed and acid-ic. Woulnd't have been so bad if Lois would have just left him or something. It's obvious something was eating at him. His infidelity could have been that very thing. It's no fun being on either side of that mess. It could have been what perpetuated his depression... unless there was something else we don't know about. But he compensated by incredible service work and A.A. writings.

I've got some relationship advice for those that will hear it; don't cheat. And whatever you do, if you should stumble and do, don't get famous, try to break the world record at it, brag about it, and don't get married to someone else who is faithful. It's an easy way to get drunk or dead... or at least severely depressed.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:54 AM
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If you are secure in the steps, I don't see why you can't just use the Big Book, your sponsor and your support group. My home group has step meetings every Monday, so we read out of the 12x12.... otherwise I don't know if I'd have much exposure to it.

I hear that there is a "Little Red Book", written in the fifties that used to be printed by AAWS but is now available through Hazelden... Someone here had good things to say about it, I'm looking for it now.

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Old 12-15-2009, 11:05 AM
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The whole point of the process is to get rid of what you are not and then what you are shows up.
I love that, thank you.

I have no intention of abandoning the 12x12, but I will approach it a little differently than I do the Big Book
Same here. I ran into trouble with wording or how things are presented in the 12 and 12 in step 4 when it brings up the Seven Deadlies...ugh. I can see how it is a useful list of what's basically wrong with everyone, but its' associations are so off-putting (any mention of the seven deadly sins immediately brings images from gruesome medieval art into my head).
That chapter also gets into this business of natural instincts being misused, misdirected (Does it actually use the word perverted? I can't remember and am too lazy to check. Sloth!) I feel like the tone here implies an attitude that the alcoholic is fundamentally wrong or damaged which is so unlike what I get from the BB which reassuringly told me alcoholics can be decent and good people like anyone else, they just have a disease. I poured over that chapter so many times, trying to "get it" as far as how to do my fourth step, you would think I would be able to remember something more specific than just how it made me feel. Odd.
That said, I have peeked forward a bit and there seem to be some really inspiring things in the later steps (10-12). I'll get there someday.
A lot of educational stuff in this thread, thanks everyone for putting so much thought and effort into your posts!
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:25 PM
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The Little Red Book is actually a very good book.

In the past, when I was first trying to get sober, I would read the Big Book and then the 12 and 12 and it seemed like they didn't match up. The concepts and the language was so different.

The Little Red Book is good, because it is written as a companion to the Big Book and it references pages and direct qoutes. It's good.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post

I've got some relationship advice for those that will hear it; don't cheat. .
That's good

I'm going to go right down to an SLAA meeting and announce that pearl of wisdom

They will welcome me as a savior, and SLAA will come to a screeching halt, and come crashing down, SLAA will no longer need to exist thanks to my newfound wisdom.

Then I will go to an AA meeting and say "Don't drink"

AA will no longer be needed either, meetings everywhere will close down.

My point is, quite frankly I think Bill needed meds, just as you can't pray your way out of diabetes, you can't pray your way out of clinical depression.

When I initially got sober, quite frankly I shared both of those qualities with Bill, depression and infidelity, I worked on the infidelity until it stopped, but the depression continued off and on through the years, sometimes it's situational, sometimes it's strictly chemical, and it SUCKS, and quite frankly a new relationship knocks out clinical depression in me immediately, POW, like out of the park, so I don't think his depression was caused by infidelity, i think he used infidelity to cure his depression.

So I think it's best if we don't give advice, that we stick to our experience, because if "just say no" worked there would be no twelve steps programs, and behind the statement "just don't cheat" I believe lies an ignorance as vast as those people who tell us "just don't drink".

Bill wasn't just human, as was earlier stated "some of us are sicker then others" and the fact he had a far lower bottom and was one of "the sicker" and still founded this incredible program that we all use, and quote and owe our lives to says to me we owe him our gratitude, not taking his inventory and dragging him through the mud.

We do talk about each other, but we do so tempered with love, otherwise it's just gossip and advice, which should be somewhere on a what? oh yeah, those 4th and 10th steps Bill taught us how to do.

under character defects

His defects are none of my business, mine are, and as I hear a lot here, what is YOUR experience with depression and infidelity?
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:12 PM
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whatajoy....
Good to see you again

Seems to me as tho there were 3 of those small books
published by hazelton.
24 Hours A Day
the others I have forgottenthe titles.
"Stools and Bottles" maybe?

I remember I liked them too
Still read 24 here daily.
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:20 PM
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Right. That's why I prefaced it with "those that will hear it".

I don't have to not cheat. I just don't do it. I don't know much about depression either. Just looking back at history like everybody else. To be honest, the only thing I really know about Willie's marital situation is that he claimed, "...but severe drunkeness kept me out of those scrapes."

So Bill slides into home plate and he's SAFE!

Oh, and love the sarcasm ago. My dad told me along time ago that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
happy instead of depressed and acid-ic.
Is that what you mean here..

Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
Oh, and love the sarcasm

Look at the trails..... I loved christmas lights

LOL

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Old 12-15-2009, 08:19 PM
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Rather a strange thread.

From AA literature and spiritual expereinces to
gossip.......
is idle talk or rumour, especially about the personal or private affairs of others

Last edited by CarolD; 12-15-2009 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:01 PM
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Now some of this stuff IS in A.A. literature. I've got a few books. The one I'm reading now probably doesn't have Bill's life history in there as it's called Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers.

Now go to pp. 374-377 of Pass it On. There's some interesting facts in there. So Mark, did you have Bill and Tim up there in your attic too? It's on record that Bill withdrew the experiments before the Vitamin A... (1959)as we used to call it... was made illegal in Canada (1963) and before it became an illegal street drug. It appeared that they were attempting to reach spiritual experience by blocking the ego somewhat... brought on by the drug or also brought on by fasting... the former being the easier of the two I guess.

Flashforward to Bro (it's a Dharmic technique I likes to use ):

Originally Posted by brother View Post
...Paul Martin, 87 years old and 62 years sober. His sponsor was Tom Powers who
helped Bill Wilson edit and publish the 12x12….
...Paul always believed that guilt is the cause of depression. In fact, he was
sure that Wilson would not have had his depressions if he would have kept his
pecker in his pants.[/FONT][/SIZE][/INDENT]...
That's what I was saying way back in post whatever... but since I don't have a sponsor to bounce that off of, I commented on it... as fact, not rumor.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:04 PM
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AA History or gossip?

It appears depression is common with substance abuse. Medication may be a companion treatment but no substitute for the basic requirement: practicing spiritual principles in all my affairs.

From an AA History lovers message board *****! Groups
Paul Martin, 87 years old and 62 years sober. His sponsor was Tom Powers who
helped Bill Wilson edit and publish the 12x12….
...Paul always believed that guilt is the cause of depression. In fact, he was
sure that Wilson would not have had his depressions if he would have kept his
pecker in his pants.

Nailed it – self-will run riot is my biggest threat to emotional sobriety.
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
Right. That's why I prefaced it with "those that will hear it".

I don't have to not cheat. I just don't do it. I don't know much about depression either. Just looking back at history like everybody else. To be honest, the only thing I really know about Willie's marital situation is that he claimed, "...but severe drunkeness kept me out of those scrapes."

So Bill slides into home plate and he's SAFE!

Oh, and love the sarcasm ago. My dad told me along time ago that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
So you have no experience with either clinical depression or sexual addiction, but plenty of judgment, gossip, and advice.

The great thing about the Big Book and The Twelve and Twelve is he speaks from experience, that's what makes those two books valid and meaningful beyond measure.

"How many time people have said to us: “I can take it or leave it alone. Why can’t he?” “Why don’t you drink like a gentleman or quit?” “That fellow can’t handle his liquor.” “Why don’t you try beer and wine?” “Lay off the hard stuff.” “His will power must be weak.” “He could stop if he wanted to.” “She’s such a sweet girl, I should think he’d stop for her sake.” “The doctor told him that if he ever drank again it would kill him, but there he is all lit up again.”
Now these are commonplace observations on drinkers which we hear all the time. Back of them is a world of ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions refer to people whose reactions are very different from ours.

Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone.

Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason—ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor—becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention.

But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
change all references from alcoholics, drinking, etc to sex and sexual activity, and there is a picture of sexual addiction, yet you take his inventory?

Pot calling kettle, come in kettle

Laying clinical depression on the fact he didn't keep it in his pants? So you are a psychiatrist now too?

Why not just stick to our OWN inventory Patrick? Maybe stop taking Bill's inventory, and stop taking mine, and stick with your own, I find if I stick to my OWN inventory I can be sure I know what I am talking about.

That wasn't sarcasm, I was dead serious, I now have the answer to sexual addiction, clinical depression, and thus to this "so called" alcoholism, right?

"just say no"

then sit on my moral and spiritual hilltop and take others inventories and tear them down and claim my experience is the only valid one, and my path the only one.

What brought me to AA originally was my inability to "keep it in my pants" while drinking, I had met the girl of my dreams and I couldn't stop cheating on her. It took me years and years of deep work, the twelve steps, therapy, a psychriatrist, then more more and more step work to deal with that issue, which was NO different then my alcoholism, many people have a few drinks and have to get a bindle, I had a few drinks, and had to crash my car and get laid.

I would wake up every morning with "The Four Horsemen" plus a self loathing I will never forget because. I. couldn't. stop. In Just those 2 years with that one girlfriend I slept with over 200 women.

I. just. couldn't. stop.

I heard ALL of "Now these are commonplace observations which we hear all the time. Back of them is a world of ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions refer to people whose reactions are very different from ours

She's such a nice girl, why don't you stop for her sake blah blah blah"

I couldn't, I couldn't until I hit my bottom and came to AA, I couldn't control my drinking, and when I lost control of my drinking, voop, I'd slip my leash.

Some of us are sicker then others, and some of us have more work to do, or choose to do the work, but listening to people run Bill down for something they have absolutely no experience with and no understanding of is like listening to my POS drunken stepfather polish off his second case of beer and second quart of tequila and lecture me about AA, with about as much merit I might add.

So I will stick with working my own program and taking my own inventory, and you can stick with taking my inventory, Bill's inventory, and every single poster that wanders in here or the alcoholism forum that doesn't work the program "your way" which evidently includes Bill.

Thank You for pointing out my sarcasm, I may have missed it tonight when I did "upon retiring at night"
Paul Martin, 87 years old and 62 years sober. His sponsor was Tom Powers who
helped Bill Wilson edit and publish the 12x12….
...Paul always believed that guilt is the cause of depression. In fact, he was
sure that Wilson would not have had his depressions if he would have kept his
pecker in his pants.
Yeah, Tom left AA over it, and started a different program, and he told Paul, who told someone, who posted it on a ***** forum, so therefore this is "The Truth" as told by two unimpeachable sources who are also psychiatrists in their spare time who in the fifties had an utter understanding of depression years ahead of their time.

I respect Tom's opinion, but that's all it is, an opinion, and we know about those and who has those.

I repeat this and take my leave:

In a perverse way we can actually take satisfaction from the fact that many people annoy us, for it brings a comfortable feeling of superiority. Gossip barbed with our anger, a polite form of murder by character assassination, has its satisfactions for us, too. Here we are not trying to help those we criticize; we are trying to proclaim our own righteousness.
Also written by Bill

PS Thank You Carol

All quotes from The 1st edition of The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, conceived and written by Bill Wilson (for the most part)
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:20 PM
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You want experience, ago? That's two very vile threads you've directed right at me... that last one and #59.

What's your experience? When was your last drink of booze?
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
You want experience, ago? That's two very vile threads you've directed right at me... that last one and #59.

What's your experience? When was your last drink of booze?
LOL

How long have I been sober?

hahahahahahahahaha

Isn't that like "The Godwin's Law" of AA conversations?

How long YOU been sober?

hahahahahahahahahaha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Godwin's law
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Mike Godwin, formulator of the "law".

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2]

Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread reductio ad Hitlerum form. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[5] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads, wiki talk pages, and social networking sites.
I thought I was very clear about my experience with the twelve and twelve, depression, and infidelity

They were by no means meant to be "vile" and I am sorry you took them that way, I am disagreeing with you and your actions strongly, not "dogging" you

2-24-08

so you "win" in the end, instead of the old days, when words failed us, and we went outside and fought, now we pull the "well I have been sober longer then you so there" card

well done you

Here is my experience when I get a resentment, maybe it will help:
Resentment is the "number one" offender.

Have you been wronged? Life has just not been fair?

Resentment hangs up emotional growth, sometimes, even for years, more than just about anything else.

You are going to be instructed in this article to list on a sheet of paper, all people, institutions, or principles with whom you are still angry or have resentments.

FIRST...Lets define it......What is a resentment?

Webster's Dictionary defines "resentment" as "indignation or ill-will felt as a result of a real or imagined offense."


Webster's then refers the reader to the word "anger" ......and gives other examples of this thought or feeling, which includes rage, fury, wrath, resentment, and indignation.

These words denote varying degrees of displeasure from anger (strong, intense, and explosive) to the longer lasting resentment ill-will and suppressed anger generated by a sense of being wronged by another or being wrong).

From this resentment, stem all forms of bitterness, for you have been not only mentally and physically ill, you have been spiritually sick about the whole matter.

When the "resentment" malady is overcome, you will straighten out mentally and physically.

In dealing with these resentments, you need to set them all down on paper.

Doing this exercise on paper is an important part of the step to move on that we are explaining here.
To cheat and not do the "on paper" exercise is to cheat no one but yourself and your moving on to a new life.

Do not concern yourself with whether you should or should not have the anger or resentment, just make the list.

EXAMPLES OF RESENTMENTS

PEOPLE:

Former Wife, or/ husband, boyfriends, girlfriends, mother, father, siblings, offspring, grandchildren, yourself, grandmothers, grandfathers, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends, bosses, fellow workers, employees, business partners, lovers, neighbors, cops, judges, teachers, classmates, attorneys, celebrities, landlords, preachers, God, politicians, counselors.



INSTITUTIONS:

Government, schools, businesses, hospitals, prisons, workplaces, religions, churches, cultures, marriage, organizations, societies.



PRINCIPLES:

Religions, laws, beliefs, practices, codes, doctrines.



If you can remember the resentment, you should write it down, even though you think that you are over it.

Go back through your life; "thoroughness and honesty" are of utmost importance.

A review of PEOPLE, INSTITUTIONS and PRINCIPLES will bring up a long list, not just your stbx. and not just the people, institutions and principles

Sure you are sore. You are "burned up."

Lets face it....you are really, really pissed .

On your grudge list, you set opposite each name all your injuries attributed to them.

Is it your self esteem, your security, your ambitions, your sex relations, which have been interfered with?

You work with four columns:

The first column will be the person, place or thing in which you have a resentment against.

The second column will be for why you have the resentment. What injury or hurt did they do to you?

The third column is for entering what was affected as a result of the resentment. you have done thus far. What have you lost or what has been threatened.

Is it now apparent that these resentments have led you to unhappiness and futility?

Have you indeed, squandered away many hours reliving these events?

Are you still very angry over these injustices to you?

Do you realize that your new life is frozen in time if you continue to harbor such feelings?

Do you now realize the power over your life that you have given this hate, anger, and resentment?

Is it worth it?

Putting out of our minds the wrongs others have done, we look now for your own mistakes.


The fourth column is for entering in what your part in the deal was, fill in the answers to the questions:

What was my part in this event and how was I at fault?

Where did I go wrong?


The first thing you will see that becomes apparent is that this world and its people are often quite wrong.

To conclude that others were wrong is as far as most of us ever get. (cough three columns cough)

The usual outcome is that you will figure out that people will likely continue to wrong you, that you will continue to be on the short end of more injustices and you will therefore continue to stay pissed.

Sometimes it turns to remorse and then you will even be sore at yourself.

And the more you fight and try to have your own way, the worse matters get.

As in war, the victor only seemed to win. Our moments of triumph will be short lived.

It eventually will become plain to you, that a life which includes deep resentment leads only to futility and unhappiness.

Turning back now to the list, for it holds the key to the future.

You are prepared to look for it from an entirely different angle.

You began to see that the world and its people have really dominated and controlled you thru your resentment.

In that state, the wrong doing of others, fancied or real, has the power to actually ruin your new second chance for a great new life.

How can you escape these clutches that hold you back?

You see now that these resentments must be mastered, but how?

You can not wish them away

This is your new course,

You realize now that the people who wronged you were perhaps a mixed up mess with their own very serious problems.

Though you did not like their symptoms and the way they distribute them to you, you understand their imperfections and hereby forgive them.

Realizing that they, like yourself were far, far from perfect and likely will remain so.

To the precise extent that you have permitted these resentment to continue, do you squander the hours, the very hours that your life is made of and that might have been exceptionally worth while.

You will find now, that it is crucial, to ever gaining full control of your new life.

For when continuing the harboring of such feeling you shut yourself off from the sunlight of growth and this second chance at a great new life.
See now, by doing four columns, I get to see what my part is, then I can move on

Oh, I did take your inventory a little bit though in this thread

I'll avoid that in the future, I know how nasty that feels
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Old 12-16-2009, 08:36 AM
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Well we're back on the path and have birthdays coming up. We can be grateful and enjoy the holiday. I've got a new phone that does internet. Pretty cool.
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