FYI -- Take a minute and read. Thanks.

[Alera]

Just a few quick pointers to all the posters here at Secular Connections.

Please remember this board is for folks who work a Secular program. This includes religious folk who chose to work a secular program like SMART or LifeRing/SOS. It also includes those that work a Secular program along with a 12-step program. The purpose of this board is to discuss our Secular Recovery, not to bash another program.

Please remember this forum follows the same rules as any other here at SoberRecovery. I am copying and pasting a few of the rules that have been broken recently. Italics are mine.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ting-tips.html (Policies, Rules & Posting Tips)

Here are a few highlights:
SoberRecovery.com Forums Guidelines

4. The forum moderators may reject posts based on their interpretation of these guidelines and specifically the violations listed in the section below. The infringing member may be warned, suspended, subjected to post moderation or have his/her membership permanently revoked, depending on the severity of the violation(s), as deemed by their discretion. Repetitive violation or disregard of our warnings may result in stricter civil and legal actions. Membership will be revoked if private messages from moderators or administrators are ignored.

SoberRecovery.com Forums Violations (Don'ts)

2. Outside Agendas: No posts of an overtly political or religious nature OR posts promoting advocacy of particular personal, medical, legal, religious, political, or non-profit causes. The forums are intended for offering mutual personal support related to recovery from addiction or recovery for family and friends. This is our primary purpose. Debating controversial subjects should be taken elsewhere. Limited references are allowed, but the forums should not be used to convert others. Do not post content or links to and from sites that flame someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program/method.

4. No Flaming: Posting of any content with the intention of disrupting the forum or inflaming members-be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program. This includes flaming, flame baiting, registration of multiple accounts or impersonation of another member. Do not Harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress or discomfort upon another Online Forum participant. This includes flaming on our forums or other public forums.

No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun off, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.

Ignore bothersome members. If there is someone on the forum that bothers you, select the Ignore option on the drop down menu under their name on the post. You won't see any posts from this member again.

12. Do not disrespect forum leaders, moderators, forum greeters, and chat chairs. Be respectful in both the forums, chat, and any private communications. These members are volunteers that donate many, many hours of their own time to help in the forums and chat rooms. Violations of this rule will not be tolerated.

If you see a problem report it to us immediately and let us review the problem and take the appropriate actions.

If you feel that a decision has been made arbitrarily you may contact an Administrator privately for clarification. It is against the forum rules to ignore private messages from Forum leaders or Administrators. Publicly denouncing the actions of one of our volunteers can lead to having your membership permanently revoked.

Posting Tips
If you feel your message has been unreasonably deleted, or if you wish to complain about a post that you find offensive then please get in touch with the moderators through a private message. Don't try to handle the situation yourself. It often makes the situation worse

[Alera]

As you may know SC (Secular Connections) has become a board to discuss Secular Recovery Methods. Since I will be pruning a lot of posts, I don't have the time to send PMs to every member who has a post that is deleted.

Secular Connections
Alternatives to 12 Step Recovery
LifeRing-Smart-SOS, CBT, Problem Solving, Self Management, Self-Empowerment, Rational Thinking, Positive Lifestyle Changes, Self Assessment, Commitment and Follow-Through, Self-Acceptance, Motives and Goals, Peer Support

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know what is happening.

ETA: Sorry about the double post. I've been having burps at SR today.

[sfgirl]

I saw that you shut the post that Bamboozle started and had sort of veered into religion. You gave the reason posted above that it had veered off-topic. I am confused. Do we have to stay within the narrow confines of the subject matter posted above?

If a conversations naturally goes somewhere else I see no need to stop it. It seems discriminatory if selectively applied and overly restrictive if uniformly applied. I just want clarification. Thanks for all your work!

[stone]

I was wondering too Alera, when you closed Bams thread you said

"As this thread no longer has anything to do with:

Alternatives to 12 Step Recovery
LifeRing-Smart-SOS, CBT, Problem Solving, Self Management, Self-Empowerment, Rational Thinking, Positive Lifestyle Changes, Self Assessment, Commitment and Follow-Through, Self-Acceptance, Motives and Goals, Peer Support

it is getting the lock"

Using that criteria, 99% of the threads in Secular Connections should get closed.

Would it be better to change the "Secular 12 step recovery" forum to a "Secular alternatives to recovery" (Smart etc) forum and have "Secular Connections" as a place for people of a secular bent to discuss recovery in a more general way, ie not tied to discussions of Smart etc?

So "Secular Connections" would be a looser format and people could be encouraged to talk about things in a positive way i.e. not just bash AA all the time.

The "Secular alternatives to recovery" forum could still cater for those in AA working the Program in an atheist/agnostic way, which is what I assume the "Secular 12 step recovery" forum is meant to be for.

[Dee74]

I think I get it LOL.

Please remember this board is for folks who work a Secular program. This includes religious folk who chose to work a secular program like SMART or LifeRing/SOS. It also includes those that work a Secular program along with a 12-step program. The purpose of this board is to discuss our Secular Recovery, not to bash another program.

thanks Alera
D

[stone]

I certainly agree that the AA bashing is too much.... but in how many threads are people actually talking about secular recovery programs?
Not many.

It seems most people here who class themselves as secular and therefore are drawn to the forum are not doing a formal secular recovery program...or if they are they aren't talking about it.

Hence my suggestion that we could have one secular forum where people don't have to adhere to talking about secular programs....because that is what is already happening, lol.

[Alera]

As mentioned in the description, we can also offer peer support. The main reason the secular forum came into existence is there was not a place for those of us working programs and recovery that was not twelve-step based. It was a place to discuss our issues and programs. Over time, the board has shifted to 12-step and religion bashing, which was never its purpose.

Many of the threads in this forum DO offer peer support and discussions regarding lifestyle changes, rational thinking and so on. It is not as limiting as one might think.

Alternatives to 12 Step Recovery
LifeRing-Smart-SOS, CBT, Problem Solving, Self Management, Self-Empowerment, Rational Thinking, Positive Lifestyle Changes, Self Assessment, Commitment and Follow-Through, Self-Acceptance, Motives and Goals, Peer Support

[gneiss]

Originally Posted by stone

Using that criteria, 99% of the threads in Secular Connections should get closed.

I was thinking the same thing, Stone. Random Rambling, most of the stuff on Daily Check-in, Secular jokes, Phal's vacation photos, DK's interjections of much-needed humor during discussions... all gone. I understand trying to keep things on topic, but it seems like a natural progression of conversation away from topic by a strict interpretation of the rules should not be reason to lock a thread. That's just how we humans operate, after all.

While I don't think it is ever appropriate to "flame" anyone, I am worried this could start to feel downright draconian and I am wondering how long I will be comfortable here. I enjoy the comradery of SC and feel it greatly contributes to my continued efforts at recovery. However, if I can't disagree with another person at the risk of being told I am "flaming" I do not think SC will be helpful in my recovery.

[gneiss]

Apologies. Alera's post came while I was preparing my own. I appreciate all the work the mods do. We're a temperamental bunch sometimes. Especially me.

[stone]

Originally Posted by Alera

Many of the threads in this forum DO offer peer support and discussions regarding lifestyle changes, rational thinking and so on. It is not as limiting as one might think.

I take your point.

And I totally agree about the bashing.

[paulmh]

The main reason the secular forum came into existence is there was not a place for those of us working programs and recovery that was not twelve-step based.

That ISN'T how I remember it. It wasn't originally about "not twelve step". It was about being secular - in other words being more interested in the human rather than the divine. It became apparent though that what some people WANTED was a place where 12 step wasn't talked about in any positive way.

Now, there's nothing wrong with 12 step not being written about, because people want to discuss other methods of recovery that have no "spiritual" aspect. What IS wrong is people not discussing recovery at all, except to diss 12 step.

"Secular" to my mind always meant the focus of discussion was on the human aspect of recovery. I'm one of those people who likes to study why 12 step works from a human perspective rather than from a "relationship with the divine" one. For instance - why does "letting go and letting G*d" have such a powerful therapeutic effect on the neurotic personality of the alcoholic - or what are the similarities or the shared inspirations (beyond the shared use of business-speak) between "inventory" and "CBA"?

SR can and should be a place to celebrate recovery, whatever the individual's experience of recovery is. Sometimes of course people want to vent and that's fair enough - and sometimes the focus of their vent will be AA and that's fair enough too. But you can't have a forum whose purpose is to regularly attack 12 step - and then argue that there should be special protection for that forum because it was set up for people who were working non-12 step programmes.

Perhaps what you could do, as a moderator, is take out every reference to 12 step as soon as it appears. If you want a non-12 step forum, perhaps you might stop them all talking about 12 step.

[californiapoppy]

Here come my 4 bits worth again. I am not working any program other than getting myself sober. For the moment Sober Recovery has been helping me, mostly because of peer support. I have practically dropped reading anything other than "Secular Connection". This is working for me. I need a little discussion, a lot of friendly support and fun. Again I say, this is working for me. What would not work for me are very heated, subjective arguments, tough love, cruelty, prejudice, and probably a few other things that I can't remember now. I have no problem with threads being closed when they might end up hurting someone. Thank-you Alera and Morning Glory for being fair, I for one would have a very difficult time discerning.

[Bamboozle]

At the risk of looking like a flamer here, my original post in that thread was NOT an attack on AA. It was a response to a thread posted in the Substance Abuse forum about how folks should not fear the god thing. I didn't feel it was my place to post a response there because I knew it would seriously derail the OP's theme and it would have turned into a flame fest. I didn’t want to crap on someone else’s thread, so I elected to start my own. Apparently that was still a mistake, because although it started out well (at least I thought it did), it did degrade over time.

Some of the responses towards the end were inflammatory, others were not. I’ve noticed that in other parts of SR, sometimes a warning is given and the offending posts are removed. If the flaming continues, THEN the thread is shut down.

I’m really not trying to be a pain here, I’m just trying to understand. Sometimes it’s hard to know where the boundaries are, especially when your personal philosophies are seemingly at odds with the majority.

I’m not trying to upset people, I’m trying to connect with like-folk. If I do say something to offend someone, I’d like to be told. Send me a PM, mods, and tell me exactly how I’m being out of line so I can avoid doing so. Maybe you don’t have time to PM everyone…I know you folks are busy people. I’m feeling like I’m walking on eggshells here. Thank you.

[Alera]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

At the risk of looking like a flamer here, my original post in that thread was NOT an attack on AA. It was a response to a thread posted in the Substance Abuse forum about how folks should not fear the god thing. I didn't feel it was my place to post a response there because I knew it would seriously derail the OP's theme and it would have turned into a flame fest. I didn’t want to crap on someone else’s thread, so I elected to start my own. Apparently that was still a mistake, because although it started out well (at least I thought it did), it did degrade over time.

Some of the responses towards the end were inflammatory, others were not. I’ve noticed that in other parts of SR, sometimes a warning is given and the offending posts are removed. If the flaming continues, THEN the thread is shut down.

I’m really not trying to be a pain here, I’m just trying to understand. Sometimes it’s hard to know where the boundaries are, especially when your personal philosophies are seemingly at odds with the majority.

I’m not trying to upset people, I’m trying to connect with like-folk. If I do say something to offend someone, I’d like to be told. Send me a PM, mods, and tell me exactly how I’m being out of line so I can avoid doing so. Maybe you don’t have time to PM everyone…I know you folks are busy people. I’m feeling like I’m walking on eggshells here. Thank you.

The rules here at SR are pretty cut and dry. Don't flame. Don't bash other's beliefs. MG and I have posted several warnings in other threads in the last week and a half posting the rules.

You are right, I am busy outside of SR. When I see a thread that has derailed into over a page of posts that bash the beliefs of religious folk (and again that goes against the description of the board and rules of the forum) I do not have time to PM every single person who broke the rules. Did you read why I didn't PM every single person that posted an anti-12 Step post?

I have posted the boundaries, both through the rules and the Secular Connections description. It is not up for debate whether it goes against what you perceive as the majority. What is important is that the owners, admin and moderators feel that these posts are at odds with the SR rules and philosophy.

Originally Posted by paulmh

That ISN'T how I remember it. It wasn't originally about "not twelve step". It was about being secular - in other words being more interested in the human rather than the divine. It became apparent though that what some people WANTED was a place where 12 step wasn't talked about in any positive way.

From MG's welcome message (Welcome) when Secular opened

Originally Posted by Morning Glory

This forum is a non-12-step forum. It is open to all our members who approach their life with secular viewpoints.

That sounds as if it the forum was originally opened to discuss programs and recovery which are "not twelve steps".

Perhaps what you could do, as a moderator, is take out every reference to 12 step as soon as it appears. If you want a non-12 step forum, perhaps you might stop them all talking about 12 step.

If I had the time to catch every post that talks about the twelve steps in the Secular board I would. As for past posts, I have a sticky explaining that I am pruning posts and threads that go against the rules. You can help by using the report button when new posts pop up.

[Bamboozle]

Originally Posted by Alera

The rules here at SR are pretty cut and dry. Don't flame. Don't bash other's beliefs. MG and I have posted several warnings in other threads in the last week and a half posting the rules.

You are right, I am busy outside of SR. When I see a thread that has derailed into over a page of posts that bash the beliefs of religious folk (and again that goes against the description of the board and rules of the forum) I do not have time to PM every single person who broke the rules. Did you read why I didn't PM every single person that posted an anti-12 Step post?

I have posted the boundaries, both through the rules and the Secular Connections description. It is not up for debate whether it goes against what you perceive as the majority. What is important is that the owners, admin and moderators feel that these posts are at odds with the SR rules and philosophy.

I guess what I am asking here was if my original post in that particular thread was in any way a violation of the rules of SR. I need to know.

[Alera]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

I guess what I am asking here was if my original post in that particular thread was in any way a violation of the rules of SR. I need to know.

I did not find your original post to be against the rules of SR. It did not "bash" a program nor did it "bash" religion. I hope that clears up any issues.

[Bamboozle]

Thank you.

[Alera]

Originally Posted by Bamboozle

Thank you.

Anytime. In addition, it met the Self Assessment description.

[paulmh]

Gaah! Faulty memory.... sorry about that.

[Doug]

The Mods keep up their own Forums. Most folks around all these Forums are adults, and know where "the lines" are, and most choose to test them anyway. Yes a thread in here was locked recently, has anybody other than me noticed how many are NOT LOCKED?

There's a reason we have such a wide range of Forums here, and why they keep growing, and that's so people have some choices. That said, there are other discussion Forums out there specifically built for bashing and trashing, if that's what folks want.

Back to SR, our rules as made by the OWNERS are clearly posted at the top of the Forums menu. Most every, if not all Forums have some sort of specific reminder "stickied" at the top to remind people what the Forum is for and about.

Some Mods like to try warnings, some Mods get tired of posting the same things, to the same people, about the same old issues, and move right into closing a thread. The Mods are "allowed" to do this, and that itself is mentioned in those pesky rules too. As is, when members have an issue with something, they need to take it into a Private Message, either with the Mod involved, or an Admin. (Myself or MG)

This is Alera's Forum to keep up. She volunteers her time to do it (as we all do) and based on what the owners want, she does her best at it.

Yes a thread was closed. Some others are, some others will be again. Many, many, many, many more have not been, and will not be. Everybody has some part in the events they are involved in, and some of you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[michelle01]

Most of the posts in this forum seem to veer off with resentment against or be colorised against AA. If this was not the case, maybe I would participate, if there was some serious discussion about recovery along with some treatment alternatives.

[Alera]

Originally Posted by michelle01

Most of the posts in this forum seem to veer off with resentment against or be colorised against AA. If this was not the case, maybe I would participate, if there was some serious discussion about recovery along with some treatment alternatives.

I try to keep those discussions to a minimum. Perhaps you would like to start a thread on your secular recovery and the tools that seem to help you?