instant

it's about getting sober and staying sober - whatever works for whoever.

Getting sober for me was not pretty or orderly- I was in a panic and desperate- I clung onto things

You have the option of 'not listening' and not engaging with stuff/people that upset you- or you can learn to deal with being upset by the views of others.

wpainterw

Reminds me of an old New Yorker cartoon. Two monks wandering down the sidewalk. One says to the other "I am too "holier than thou!"

W

Itchy

Hey W!

sturner75

What do you mean by this please? As in the "holier than thou" post? Granted, many people are...I'm not. I understand I've many, many flaws and have acknowledged some of them with friends, family, my husband and have apologised untold times and will continue to do so until my dying day.
I just brought up an issue that many in my group have addressed....it is so impressive when people are successful in sobriety however the method they choose/is successful for them. I continue to look upon in wonderment how people can be physically dependent then fight it, whether SMART, AA, secular or community groups, rehab, detoxes, online support....it is an individual journey and different strokes for different folks peeps!
Once again, I'm overwhelmed by the number of people who viewed this post in the first place, and am extremely grateful to those who have taken the time to post.
I never intended to offend anyone with strong beliefs...reiterating that fair and true phase: each to their own.
No more negativity please!

Bmac

FWIW, I went to my home group yesterdeay and was talking with an old timer of 26 years. I explained to him that this last time I started drinking, I promised myself that if it ever got to a certain point, I would quit. I told him that I reached that point and went striaght to detox before suffering any real consequences that I knew I would face if I did not stop at my predetermined stopping point.

His response was something like, "I'm not saying this is all in your head, but the big book specifically says that once an alcoholic drinks, he loses complete control on putting down the drink".

So yeah, there are those who treat the big book like holy scripture and scoff if anyone's experience differs from what the book says. But we see the same in various other aspects of society; religion, politics, social issues etc.. It's just how we as humans have been conditioned after generations of the "being right" mentality.

I hold no resentment to those hard core AAers no more than I hold resentments to many good friends who differ in my political ideology. Bottom line, we are all simply trying to stay sober and doing what we each think is best for us.

Besides, it always makes me feel better when I try to be kind rather than try to be "right".

sturner75

Agreed. Kind is better than your own interpretation of what is 'right'.

Itchy

I always thought the best revenge was "Living well."

I also taught my subordinates that the real pleasure when dealing with a "difficult" person was to kill them with kindness. Even if I killed them with kindness just to hear them say they were sorry. Active conflict resolution takes training along with assertiveness training.

Where folks have difficulty is when they have emotional residue and feel they did not get closure. These folks stuff it back down and try to escape their feelings of inadequacy.

I learned to detach in that I can let another go their own way and not feel they erred in not taking my way.

I do believe in giving every other I meet respect and trust, and then demand that in return.

I earn respect and expect others to earn mine too. Given a choice between respect and like, I'll choose respect over like every time. Like can come from respect, but respect can't come from succumbing to emotional blackmail, the threat that if I don't do as "they" say, "they" won't like me.

I believe that anyone who derives pleasure from controlling and/or harming another, physically or emotionally is evil. I try not to be evil.

Part of my way in the past was drinking to the point of addiction. Guess when I feel I am "doing right" these days I no longer mix that concept up with "being right."

A subtle but distinct difference.

I was and am a good person, educated, and despite all that confrontability and schema training, I still succumbed to a chemical substance called alcohol.

I can help others here. It starts with realizing that I am recovered. It is no longer about me. It is about you and others here, if you and others are still trying to recover.

I recovered, so can all here, and elsewhere.

wpainterw

So sorry you took it personally. I was in no way referring to you and indeed, you have my complete support in feeling uncomfortable about the "preachy" types. I was referring, rather, to those who belong to groups who believe they have the definitive answer and that this consists in surrendering to their own concept of "higher power", like the woman down at the local church two thanksgivings ago who berated me for not being what she called a true Christian and for my admiring Mahatma Gandhi and the Dalai Lama. She said i was selfish and didn't love my wife. I left my Thanksgiving dinner uneaten and went home alone, taking medication to lessen the likelihood of a heart attack. i sent her a message that I forgave her for this but I have not gone down that church again. She really believed that she was "holier than thou!" So, Sturner, I am really in your camp. I am not negative about you. I am negative about those who make you feel uncomfortable. Please tell me now that you understand what I have said. I have been where you are right now. Preached at by those who believe they have the answer. The only true answer. The truth is that there is no one true answer. There are many paths up Mt. Fuji. He who stands on his chosen path and calls all others fools is himself a fool, and a pretentious one at that. I am sending you a private message to alert you that I have posted this. Good luck in achieving sobriety, on your own terms and not on those "preached" to you by others. Listening to suggestions, based on experience, is one thing. Being "preached" at is quite another

W.

wpainterw

Since I have heard nothing in reply to my post a half an hour ago I shall retire for the night and anticipate another sleepless night. In no way did I intend to be
"negative" and I am very upset about this.

W.

EndGameNYC

Hey wpw.

I didn't get anything at all negative about your comments, and I was surprised the OP responded in the way he did. You did nothing wrong, and even apologized for it.

A clear conscience makes for the softest pillow.

wpainterw

Thanks. I construe my response as a clarification and explanation rather than an apology. I plead "not guilty". If found guilty, what better place is there than jail to help others with problems of addiction! Truly a "captive audience" (but be careful not to "preach" to them, particularly those with ominous tattoos!- There I go. I've seen too many prison movies. "What you gonna do when they come for you?")

sturner75

Thank you very much for your clarification, your support, your PM and your concern. I took that cartoon out of context...I guess recently everything going on is making me a tad paranoid where I should certainly be looking for the positives and humour in situations rather than the opposite.
I feel your pain re insomnia, lucky to get two hours a night for years...perhaps that contributes to paranoia lol.
All the best to you all.

wpainterw

Sturner: And thank you! And every good wish on any path you have chosen for recovery. I've been there and know what it's like. The early years of my recovery were very challenging. I know that you will find so many helpful and kind folk on this website and I hope you will find them elsewhere. May your days be sunny and may you be happy.

W.

midgetcop

I can only speak for my *own* experience, and I hope it isn't misconstrued as preachiness. It's interesting how at one point in time I may have been on one side of the 'argument' and now find myself with a different perspective.

I'm an atheist. Or as a previous poster said, on my best days I'm an agnostic. For many years this was a perceived barrier between AA and I. I trickled into AA meetings many times over the years, and although I *never* experienced anything I would consider overly Christian and preachy (we're a fairly secular bunch here), I still let my perceptions and biases stop me from fully engaging in the program.

Yet, I never really engaged in any other recovery program either. Looking back, I believe my addiction was looking at any reason to stall REAL recovery.

Currently I'm in an outpatient recovery program. In a few short weeks my mind has been opened and my ego humbled beyond belief. My attitude towards AA has shifted dramatically, to the point where I've recommitted to finding a home group and giving it a heartfelt effort. The HP aspect doesn't bother me any more - I'm free to interpret that aspect however I wish that aligns with my beliefs.

Bottom line - the people I've met in AA have what I want. They are comfortable, social, humble, committed, and SOBER. When I first began attending AA I think what I felt towards others was resentment. I didn't think it was possible for me to get to where they were, as if I was somehow fundamentally different and inherently flawed. Well, if that's not a common irrational thought amongst alcoholics, I don't know WHAT is.

sturner - I don't mean to imply that this is where you're at, but just thought I'd share my own journey thus far. As many have already said, there are many paths to recovery, and the one that works is the one that works for YOU.

I wish you the best. Truly the best advice for ANY program is to take what works and leave the rest. Even when that means certain people.

wpainterw

I recommend Ernest Kurtz and Katherine Ketchum, The Spirituality of Imperfection. and another, Spirituality Through Storytelling, both available on Amazon. Although they liked AA they were apparently agnostics, if not atheists. Kurtz also wrote a fine history of AA which indicated that there is hard evidence that Bill W distrusted organized religion and was concerned that AA groups might become too dogmatic. He believed that everything in AA should be viewed as up to the individual to accept or put aside as that person chose. i think i followed Bill W.'s path and I have been sober for nearly 27 years now.

W.

thenewguy

Look, is AA perfect? Certainly not. In fact, I'm probably guilty of taking about 10 percent of it and leaving the other 90 percent.

But lets say we dismiss or strip away 90 percent. What still remains is a group of individuals who are Committed and Willing to Work their asses off for long-term or permanent sobriety no matter what.

I capitalized the three words above because there seems to be a fundamental disconnect from these concepts for the person in early recovery. The sober life takes work; it's not just simply stopping booze or drugs, and AA is a good catalyst and strong support network for the hard-ass work that sobriety requires.

I saw and heard a lot of things in bars that I would never see in the worst of AA meetings. Two drinking buddies stroked out, one had a heart attack and died 20 years early. I'm lucky I lived myself. Complaining about certain folks at AA meetings is sort of like complaining about a blemish on a Faberge Egg. It's still pretty damn good!

sorry about the rant...