Turtle82

I don't care if they preach or direct me to the latest and "greatest" or old philosophy. If they're sober... and by that I mean SERENE not just dry... and, for the most part, barring the occasional human bad day, walk their talk, I'm gonna listen because, in their serenity, they have what I want. I majored in Philosophy and spent a long time in both the subjective and objective ones. That education and the cerebral gymnastics have not contributed one twit to my sobriety. Philosophies disagree and need multiple Schools to test them. That speaks loudly. None are panaceas to be worshiped. No human, which they're all forumulated by, is going to become my HP. My own, direct, experience holds the key to truth. What my cerebral anti-religion viewpoint did, initially, was keep me from hearing the simple message contained in the preachy shorthand. As I kept listening to the music, I began to understand the words. That understanding led to direct experience which has made all the difference.

MIRecovery

In my sobriety I've learned to listen and listened to learn. I believe everyone has something of value to say. Some of the most valuable things I have learned came from the most unexpected sources.

When I close my mind I take a step towards drinking. I evaluate content not delivery styles

Bartacomus

DrunkTx. CleaninLI.. the point of this post is to address the ANTAGONISM of those who are preachy. Why should someone needing to speak out about the indignation of people with higher powers offend you? In my opinion its a topic avoided and ignored.. and one that a mod has to PREMPTIVELY warn people to mind their manners about. Its as well deserved a topic as any other.. I used to be offended by topics that shook my "faith" until I realized it was my fear that angered me, not someone elses belief... and in this line of "work".. its unavoidable. If we are to scratch out a place to be able to communicate about our shared illness, without a pile of mysticism being considered as major part of the foundation.. youre darn right we are going to address the belligerence.. poste-haste. infact, its mandatory that we do.

Dee74

Ok Time out.

I believe the message this thread should be sending is there are many ways to recovery.

Threads like these are an opportunity for learning...they're an opportunity for everyone to share their experience in order to help the OP and those who may be reading.

If you're not sharing your experience, and you're posting simply to fight or argue with another poster about what they said, you're wasting those opportunities IMO.

Dee
Moderator
SR

Pete55

I really enjoy listening to Atheists in AA who talk about the steps. Look for them and listen.

Solarion

If there are several AA groups who meet within easy distance, I would suggest trying a few different ones out, as you might find one or two where the members approach the program less literally or traditionally or dogmatically, each in their own way.

As for objectionable behavior in groups, one aspect might be that some people are more sensitive and/or introverted than most, which could affect perceptions.

And some are less so, and seem completely immune or oblivious to social mores or the nonverbal cues of people glaring at them with corrective thoughts radiating from their brows.

Which leads to the general human problem that not everyone behaves they way we would like them to, or the way other people generally do, or the way we would in their place.

So groups can provide plenty of practice of some sort or another -- e.g., tolerance, patience, acceptance, deliberate obliviousness -- and also communication ...

Maybe try having a word with the obnoxious person or the doormat facilitator (privately and kindly, of course, and I would suggest also acknowledging their positive contributions) to see whether the situation can be improved.

So endeth my sermonette.

Wishing you improving health and happiness,

A

Bartacomus

Id like to elaborate a little, and this would be a good thought experiment for everyone.
For some people, especially us raised in an environment laden with divinity".. these issues in themselves are part of our addiction.
From an early age I was in serious conflict with the world and then what I was taught in sunday school.. I am, and have always been, a natural skeptic.. to learn, and observe and to not make assumption, and at the same time to trust in the ways i was raised. It gave rise to conflict between reality and faith.. and a character set which plaques me to this day.
Please don't misunderstand that people like myself and others don't understand "taking oneself out of the equation", or that we don't realize that we have to relinquish the illusion of control.. but that the general concept of "high power" is a TRIGGER for us. as sure as each and every one of your own triggers.
There is a lot of leeway about what a highe rpower is.. to the point where someone once suggested, that i could make a doorknob my higher power. When a loose interpretation in an attempt to satisfy everyones definition of "god" fails to make an impression.. people like us are left with community. Community becomes that replacement.. now, understand how rife this community is with "higher power" talk.
For peoples where that is a trigger in itself, its hard to obtain a good foothold.
its an interesting thought project

Dee74

so... don't go to AA

I'm not saying you're wrong - you have a right to your beliefs...but there are many secular approaches and programmes out there.

I really feel it's only an impediment to recovery if you make it one BC.

D

Bartacomus

D,
the point is.. peoples comments like pete55, "sit back and watch the atheist" which is an insult in itself.. is common place. it goes non-contested. the topic that was started was, how do we (people like sturner and i) stomach people like that. i trust i could be equally defended if i posted "your god is a fairy-tale" on posts having to deal divinity.

its not an AA complaint, or a sobriety complaint, its how to manage your own program with constant disruptive element.

Dee74

There was nothing wrong with Pete 55's post bartacomus.
We have a forum here for people working the 12 steps from a secular viewpoint.

I've learnt a lot from them and I'm not even in AA.

Secular 12 Step Recovery - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

I'm going to point you back to the rule I started at the top of the thread.

These threads aren't meant to be gladatorial.

We try hard not to stifle discussion but if threads continue to be combative Anna or I will close them down.

Here on SR it's easy - I invite you to use the ignore feature if you can't get past replies that infuriate you:

I don't think letting something go 'unchallenged' is the worst thing in the world, to be honest.

Sometimes sharing our experience is the best response - but if you really feel it necessary to respond directly, sometimes a PM is better than in a thread, so that the thread can stay open.

Dee
Moderator
SR

InMyBlood

Like others have said, I'm a member of AA and am agnostic. If you think it isn't for you, and you've tried and see it probably won't help, then odds are you're right. I felt the same way a year ago when I sporadically attended meetings. But then, when I found a small group of people with whom I was comfortable, and I talked to others in recovery and did research, I finally designed my Higher Power, who is likely nothing like the God or Jesus others envision. Mine exists only for me, I know that's so selfish, but that's the only way I could reconcile the spirituality and God aspect with my own self. My power doesn't control the world or right problems left and right but does give me the peace I need right now. I know I'm probably not explaining it well, im sorry!

Bartacomus

d,
im not infuriated, i just think its good topic of conversation. its a breath of fresh air to see someone post this.. ignoring a sensitive topic goes in both directions.
im not looking to block anyone, and in the interest of this website being open to all makes and models i think any topic is a welcome study. even if it bothers some. infact, especially if its a sensitive topic.. because if so, its most likely a taboo subject (such as higher-powers) or subjective (such as "preachy"). and might be sorely in need of attention.

i found this post very enlightening.. and know if there is another person with my background they might benefit from this as well.. like most other posts, if someone see something they might not agree upon, they will gladly offer an alternative they feel might be more appropriate. this is what ive done.. is what we are doing?
where infuriated, and being a candidate to be stifled came from i do not know.
its directly inline with the topic of conversation though.

but no Khalil Gibran quotes please nudge nudge wink wink (joke)

Solarion

Not sure which, but on Star Trek I think it was Sarek rather than Spock who said, "There is no offense where none is taken." (Also sounds like something Marcus Aurelius would say.)

So maybe the answer to that involves recognizing that to some extent we are prone to Pavlovian conditioning, and to some extent not, and to try to decondition ourselves.

Maybe by getting outside of ourselves a little, individually or as humans in general, recognizing the outdatedness and arbitrariness of our earlier indoctrinations, as well as some old and ill-fitting clothes still in the closet that we believe we have chosen for ourselves.

You wouldn't be the first one to outgrow the culture you were born into. What are you going to do about it? Go around flattening other people's noses?

Bartacomus

Solarion,
that is at the very heart of the matter.. breaking the mold, upending that knee-jerk reaction to those things which promote abuse. you had me at "sarek", although ive never flattened any noses.. other than mine against a wall.

Solarion

Well, we can't force other people to behave to our liking any more than we enjoy being forced, so what can we do but "Let It Be" and grow our own way, us little trees in the field of time? Perhaps lead by example rather than bludgeoning?

I think that generally confrontation leads to a hardening of shells.

And along the lines of being kind and compassionate to ourselves and to others alike, if we did not indulge our own and other people's beneficial delusions, wouldn't we just be automatons or dust-devils (or cruel and vicious demons) coughed up by the mathematical processes of the Cosmos?

So what about that troublesome molecule we would be better off avoiding?

Pete55

Where in my post is the word, "watch" ?

I'm blind !!!

If it insulted you, then look at my comment from a "glass half full" rather than a "glass half empty", or do you need clarification for everything literal ?

It was an athiest who I spoke to most early in my recovery cos I needed to know stuff about alcoholism, alcohol etc without all the divine fireworks.
How did I know he was an athiest, ?? cos I LISTENED, not watched as you
miss read.

It was an atheist who ran meetings in a detox centre as part of his and her service work.
It was the same atheist who perservered with the revolving door types in and out of those detox centres and took them to meetings on the day of release before they get to a pub.
The same person goes to church, now works in a Christian Private school and we all best of friends, enjoy coffee after the meetings and welcomed in the homes.


If a member of AA walks the talk and has that serenity, a smile and nothing else fazes them, even a fire breathing brimstonian who has come from that place where angels fear to tread, or an Atheist from a ice hut in the middle of the South pole and they are both sober with a share to tell on how they got to AA and what they did to get to double digit years sobriety without a bust, then LISTEN.

Where is the disrespect ?
We even respect alcohol, that's why we don't touch the stuff, same as I respect Mike Tyson as a fighter, that's why I won't go in the boxing ring with him.
Same thing, Mike Tyson or Alcohol, I'm powerless, I may watch others who try to beat them, save your bets, you will lose.

bemyself

Hi Sturner (OP),
An earlier poster mentioned Agnostica to you; I believe they have a list / maps of some AA meetings in the UK, some in London I believe. (I think you said you live just outside London, though realise that could be quite a distance!) These are for members who are atheist, agnostic / freethinkers.

soberlicious

I, too, am my own higher power.

Oh, and don't misunderstand...the forces of the universe are way bigger than I, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying greater forces don't exist, I'm saying they don't exist to keep me from drinking, or to fix my brokenness.

When it comes to not putting alcohol and/or drugs into my body- I am my own higher power. I am responsible for my actions. Always.

When it comes to making choices to live the best life I can in all aspects, I am responsible for each and every choice I make. I own my accomplishments, and I own my mistakes and failures.

Obviously, there are many powers greater than I, but I don't believe those forces have anything at all to do with my personal choices. Those are on me. And the whole doorknob thing...Why would I expect that a doorknob would somehow come into play regarding whether I would decide to drink, lie, or cheat? Or that said doorknob would relieve me of my compulsion to do things I did not want to do? Yeah, no. This makes no sense to me.

When Christians get preachy with me, I don't take offense. I understand that their fear for me is real in their minds, so the preaching is coming from a place of goodwill. Regardless of how misguided I think it is, I can't argue with the intent. AA Preachy often comes with good intent as well.

Some people are just preachy and weird, though, and that's all there is to it.

Cohiba

I tried AA and NA meetings and it just wasnt for me but this site has been a huge help checking in here daily has been more helpful then any AA/NA meeting I ever attended and now I am 18 days sober

Try giving here a go

Itchy

The beauty of AA is that it is non-binding. No one makes you do or believe anything. They simply say this is what works for them. I used AA until I got all I needed from them. Three months. But those all-important three months were the first three months of my fist, and last, attempt to get and stay sober. I went hospital detox first, then a few days of a 28 day rehab but I just wasn't in need of babysitting. I'd made up my mind and that was that. All that was left to do was to get over my PAWS and keep seeing my docs and for a few weeks my counselors. I was a military retiree and 58 when I quit finally.

I used AA to cash my reality checks in person. They told me they had the same post-acute symptoms and here many folks helped too. Knowing others survived the same things helped immensely. My sage friend here was a big help too. I needed the face to face for that first three months, and then I was on to the last few "I"s to dot, and "T"s to cross to full recovery. I hang here because of threads like this one.

I shot gunned using every path and plan to sobriety that I could find available, online or off. I was already trained as a counselor in RET, I went to the marvelous online study links on the SMART website and actually read them all. I did AA despite my extreme aversion to religions. On a good day I am a theist. No Eastern religions ever attracted me despite reading much about them. I am no Christian or Muslim, no Buddhist/Hindu/Bahai But I really like some of their teachings. I don't reject religion. I learned from them, took what I could use, and left the rest. And the fundamental views take that as terrible. Yes I can take the golden rule and leave the Nicene creed. I can take the inner peace and leave the Nirvana. I can take the mysterious energy of the universe and stare in wonder at it in the night sky. I don't need rituals to take that, nor people to tell me what they mean, who don't know themselves, and that willful catch all of ignorance called faith is anathema to me. But there just might be something that started the chain reaction we call reality to go boom.

So when one asks to hold my hand and say the lord's prayer, it took a lot of restraint on my part to just do it and call it being accepting and tolerant of their beliefs. Regardless of how rude they might be towards mine.

So yes I grew mightily tired of being preached at sometime around 1964.

But I sure did appreciate the small wisdoms my AA friends shared. And I hope they could be tolerant enough to leave me be if I decided to share with them.

I think that one who needs no help to recover fully from this addiction we all share/d might be exaggerating just a tad. Back when I smoked there were few times I needed to bum a smoke. But when I did need the cigarette of another to tide me over I would certainly not complain about his choice in brand.

I think each will gravitate to a schema for recovery with which they will feel comfortable or not. And that if finding a perfect recovery method is what their recovery depended on, I submit they will never recover. It's just another condition of I will recover only if . . . . needs of mine are met, one of which just happens to be alcohol.

No matter which method floats your boat, do it fully and do it with other methods if you want.

If asked for the best method I will say all of them. But the best method to find the best method is this:

Stop getting ready and start getting to it.
Not the tomorrow that never comes. Not when everything is right and there is no stress, and not with conditions like as long as I don't have to whatever, and not waiting for it to fall from the sky or be instantly available through a drink or pill.
Stop getting ready and start getting to it.

Try them all until you come up sober! And don't judge the ones others use and succeed with every day.

Nothing works for everyone. Remember, all overgeneralizations are false, including this one.