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Old 08-29-2012, 10:26 AM
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ReadyandAble, thanks for the response! It made me smile, but then again, I am smiling a lot lately. I have a lot to be happy about, #1 among them is finding a tool that is helping me beat this addiction that has caused me so many tears.

This section of the forum is slow moving, eh? I would love to see more people engaging here.
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Old 08-29-2012, 11:42 AM
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Me, too.

I like to think the slowness is due to the fact that we're a pretty self-sufficient bunch... but maybe that's just a rationalization from my LV (Lazy Voice)...
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Old 08-29-2012, 01:15 PM
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Smile

Let's face the hard truth straight up, eh?!!

We All ROCK!!

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Old 08-29-2012, 01:52 PM
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AlaskaGirl, there are only a special select few who remain active here once they attain a permanent secure sobriety, and the secular ones even less so. AVRT counsels that you can get on with your business, move along, nothing to see here. Go, do something already.

I keep posting because I like it here, I like the discussion, and because I want to pass along what I got from SR.

So, AlaskaGirl, how is the AVRT going for you? Anything we can do? Anything you'd like to talk about?
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:47 PM
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Freshstart... thanks for asking!

Here is my deep dark secret: I haven't made a big plan. I'm not sure that I am ready to say I never want to drink again. My social circle are all sucessful, responsible people who like to party. We have so much fun together, and it usually involves drinking. When I am out with friends and drinking, I handle myself. I'm not the one starting fights or getting in trouble, I'm a fun drunk who pays attention to how much I am drinking so it doesn't get out of control.

My problems center around my desire to hole up in my house and drink myself into oblivion. I realize that the whole premise of AVRT is to shut the "beast" up by taking away any possibility that you will ever drink again. So I am wondering... is it just my tricky AV telling me that it's ok to drink socially? Is it possible to identify and shut down the AV in particular situations? Age old question I know... can I moderate?
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:03 PM
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It might not be possible to shut down your AV, but that is OK. The AV is just something to be accepted for what it is, we separate from it because it isn't us. Because we know that we will never drink again, the AV doesn't bother us or make us worried that we will drink.

Now, to the recognition part: any thought of drinking again, or any self doubt in our ability to get and stay sober is defined as our AV. I invite you to look at your post from the point of view of someone trying to find either of those two things, the AV, in what you said. What do you get?
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:18 PM
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Thank you. I agree that "shut down" the AV isn't the right term. If I am understanding this correctly, it could always be there, but I have the power to make it impotent because I have free will to take away any possiblility to drink and it doesn't.

So does that mean I can't say: "I will never drink at home again, and I will not change my mind."???

It is interesting, thinking so much about this is making me anxious. I am having a physical reaction. Shallow breathing, tensing up, etc.

Thank you for engaging in this conversation with me, I really need some guidance here.
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:25 PM
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In answer to your question... I recognize that my AV is telling me that it would be "ok" to drink socially. That thought soothes the beast... gives the baby a pacifier. LOL. But, it doesn't sooth my rational mind, and I think the reaction that my body is having is an acknowledment on a subconscious level that by engaging in this thinking I am opening a door. It is making me uncomfortable in a way that I wasn't when I just firmly stated "I will never drink again and I will not change my mind."
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:31 PM
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WAIT! THERE'S MORE!

Addicted Voice:

"You are a fun drunk. You don't really have problems when you are out with others, it's ok to drink." But underlying that is: "You aren't going to have any fun at all if you don't drink. You aren't going to have any friends if you don't drink."
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:23 PM
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I cannot make any comment about the AVRT program and the voice question under discussion because I have not looked into that program model. I have been reading various posts that mention the addictive voice and it sounds similar to the Freudian concept of the ID, that part of the human psyche that is interested in pleasures, risks, selfish gratifications. Is that comparison valid? And is the rational voice and view point seem similar to an Ego fortified with knowledge, aversion to danger, etc. I just wondered if there was a basis in human development psychology of the AVRT model?
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Old 08-29-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AlaskaGirl's AV
You are a fun drunk.

Ha, when you're feeling confident, go to a bar and spend some time around drunks. You probably weren't nearly as fun as you think you were. I know I wasn't, lol...

As for not having fun anymore, that's definitely hogwash. You'll soon see that for yourself. I go to concerts, to bars, to ball games—it's all way more fun. It's so great to actually relax and just enjoy the moment instead of obsessing over my next drink, when to stop, whether I can manage just one more... and on and on. Drinking is so tedious. I now realize that the actual experience of drinking was nothing like the romanticized notions generated by my AV.

As for the Big Plan, now that's a great topic.

I submit that it only looks hard when you're standing on that side of it. Now that I'm on this side, I realize that committing to "never" was the very thing that made my AV sooooo much easier to manage.

Great posts, AG. Your thoughts and fears are very familiar to me. I think it's all part of the great AVRT awakening.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:01 PM
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I don't know much about Freud, Auvers.

I'm pretty sure that the AV is considered unique to the addiction itself. It has one purpose, one drive—to get us to drink or use. It could care less about other pleasures, risks, and gratifications. That's why addicts will choose substances over food and even sex, I guess.

As far as the AV is concerned, a cigar is just a cigar... unless of course you've got a nicotine addiction.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Auvers View Post
I cannot make any comment about the AVRT program and the voice question under discussion because I have not looked into that program model. I have been reading various posts that mention the addictive voice and it sounds similar to the Freudian concept of the ID, that part of the human psyche that is interested in pleasures, risks, selfish gratifications. Is that comparison valid? And is the rational voice and view point seem similar to an Ego fortified with knowledge, aversion to danger, etc. I just wondered if there was a basis in human development psychology of the AVRT model?
I would never call myself an AVRT expert but I do think that's a valid comparison...the ID being basically the whiny little brat of the psyche, who wants what she wants, wants it NOW, and has all sorts of manipulative ways about her.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:18 PM
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Gasp! It's possible I'm not as fun as I think I am? LOL

"Drinking is so tedious. I now realize that the actual experience of drinking was nothing like the romanticized notions generated by my AV."

Ready... this statement rings very, very true to me. Thank you.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
Now that I'm on this side, I realize that committing to "never" was the very thing that made my AV sooooo much easier to manage.
That is SO true. I spent so long sweating it out, coming to the point of making the decision, but when I did, it was as if the weight of the world was off my shoulders. I can't say it was easy exactly, but it was an absolutely stunning relief to finally give up trying to drink "like a lady". Few things in life are black and white but that definitely was.
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Old 08-29-2012, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AlaskaGirl View Post
WAIT! THERE'S MORE!

Addicted Voice:

"You are a fun drunk. You don't really have problems when you are out with others, it's ok to drink." But underlying that is: "You aren't going to have any fun at all if you don't drink. You aren't going to have any friends if you don't drink."
You know what is so funny? My AV told me exactly the opposite! I was not a fun drunk in the least. I was someone who stayed home, alone, and drank myself into a stupor. So, my AV told me that it was those BAR drinkers, those CRAZY PARTIERS who were out doing stupid things, who were the ones with the problem. So my AV would say:

"You are simply having a few drinks to relax at the end of a long stressful day of work. Gracious, all civilized people do that; there's nothing wrong with it at all. And if you didn't do it, you'd have no way of relaxing! You'd be a bundle of nerves!" [This continued even after I could no longer work and was having daily panic attacks.]

Sneaky!
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AlaskaGirl View Post
Freshstart... thanks for asking!

Here is my deep dark secret: I haven't made a big plan. I'm not sure that I am ready to say I never want to drink again.
Without a Big Plan, your AV cannot be recognised with enough clarity to successfully quit drinking, and so, not having a Big Plan is the same has having a plan to drink.

Addictive Voice is any thinking that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or other drugs. -Jack Trimpey

AV is our own thoughts used to persuade us to have a drink. Our desire for alcohol is a perversion of our normal lower brain animal desire. This unhealthy addictive desire we call the Beast.

The never ending mission of the Beast is to convince us to pick up that drink, for it cannot on its own get that drink. So it really tries to convince us that our AV is actually ourselves, and that our addicitve desires are actually healthy. AVRT puts the Beast in its place, and separates AV from us. We are not the ones wanting that drink, and so when we refuse to do what we don't want, we don't pickup that drink. Way cool. And the Beast wails, lol.


My social circle are all sucessful, responsible people who like to party. We have so much fun together, and it usually involves drinking. When I am out with friends and drinking, I handle myself. I'm not the one starting fights or getting in trouble, I'm a fun drunk who pays attention to how much I am drinking so it doesn't get out of control.
This above is all your AV talking you into moderation drinking. Learn to see how you're being persuaded, and you'll understand things differently.

My problems center around my desire to hole up in my house and drink myself into oblivion. I realize that the whole premise of AVRT is to shut the "beast" up by taking away any possibility that you will ever drink again. So I am wondering... is it just my tricky AV telling me that it's ok to drink socially? Is it possible to identify and shut down the AV in particular situations? Age old question I know... can I moderate?
The whole premise of AVRT is not to shut the Beast down, or up, or sideways, okay? The idea of AVRT is to separate us from our AV, by looking at all thoughts which go against our Big Plan, and see them for what they are, ie thoughts and ideas to get us back to drinking. once again, the Beast is our sick desire for addiction, and AV are any thoughts which lead to satisfying that Beast desire.

So yes, its your AV saying you can drink socially.

It is not possible to "train" our Beast to be "moderate" with its desires, and so then, it is impossible to use AVRT to moderate our drinking. And of course, we can not have a Big Plan that supports moderation, and so finally, without a Big Plan, AVRT is not able to be done sufficiently enough to be successful in separating us from our AV.

Awesome questions, AlaskaGirl. Sorry if I'm making your wants to moderate seem unworkable, but nonetheless, AVRT will not be helpful in moderation. My own opinion on moderation, is no matter what technique may be used, moderation only works until it doesn't. Moderation always eventually failed me.

Keep posting, you're doing okay for a beginner. See you on the AVRT thread, as suggested by freshstart below.
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Old 08-29-2012, 06:19 PM
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AlaskaGirl, the idea of 'never' was unsettling at first to me too, until I realized that it was really unsettling to my AV, whereas my rational mind was good with the idea. I would think that any panicky feelings come from the AV, not your rational mind, because fear and self doubt are the realm of the beast.
You can take your Big Plan to the next level by realizing that never drinking again means never drinking no matter what. No matter how dull you think you will be, no matter if all of your friends desert you (it's your AV there), no matter how depressed, how 'unfun' and so on, it just ain't gonna happen. You sobriety is unconditional.

I don't know if I have helped at all, but let's take this to the AVRT thread, Alaska Girl. That is where this conversation belongs, so that it's kept for posterity. It is important, OK? See you there.
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Old 08-29-2012, 08:26 PM
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Posterity? My oh my, I feel like maybe I should put on a tie. Or at least some socks.

I don't care where this goes, so long as Robby brings along that AV sniper rifle of his.
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:09 PM
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You guys are awesome, I will see you there
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