Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion

Blogs


Notices

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion

Old 08-14-2011, 04:44 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
I wonder if the preference for reasoning versus absolutism comes down to temperament. It is often said that addicted people are "musturbators" - they think in absolutes such as "I must do this" or "I have to do this." Indeed, CBT/REBT is in large part a way to address these types of irrational beliefs, and is therefore a large component of SMART Recovery.

As Tom Horvath, President of SMART recovery wrote once,
"So at a typical SMART Recovery meeting, in addition to members doing their CBAs (cost benefit analysis), they are also doing their ABCs (Activating event, Belief, emotional and/or behavioral Consequence). They are watching out for musturbation, awfulizing, and catastrophizing."
In my case, I simply could not get past this. I knew that I simply had to quit drinking, and no amount of analysis of my irrational beliefs was going to change my mind on this. There was no way that I was going to accept that this "musturbation," as pertained to my addiction, was an irrational belief, that I had to discard it, or that I had to think better of myself or stop damning myself. To do so would simply produce a self-accepting drunk ("don't be so hard on yourself, it's only a slip, you're not a bad person"), which would only lead to further drinking.

Experience also showed me that to even contemplate the reasons for drinking versus not drinking while having an urge was doomed to failure. Before I was even half-way through my Cost-Benefit Analysis, I would be three-quarters of the way to the liquor store. I was at one point able to do this, but by the end, any "thinking" about why I shouldn't drink would inevitably lead to some ridiculous rationalization for drinking, or at the very least not produce a sufficient reason not to drink which would deter me.

This is excerpted from a Jack Trimpey / Albert Ellis Debate (1994) on AVRT, which pretty much sums up the difference between AVRT and a "reasoning" approach, in my opinion.
"AVRT declares that the sole cause of all substance addiction is the Addictive Voice, which is the cognitive-emotive expression of an immutable, substance-specific appetite for the pleasure produced by those substances. The Addictive Voice is accepted as a permanent feature of one's psyche, partitioned off from the "true self" through a number of simple dissociative techniques, and then observed rather than acted upon...

In AVRT, there are no conditions for abstinence or for relapse, nor are there any triggers, warning signs of relapse, psychiatric diagnoses, or thresholds of tolerance, that suffice to justify or explain why one would choose to self-intoxicate. AVRT is a mental sorting skill - a filter - that prevents any further use of alcohol or drugs, regardless of "disposing factors." It is completely independent from all philosophies, schools of psychology, and religious doctrines. Indeed, those epistemologies and methodologies, when posed as a primary means to achieve abstinence, may be properly identified as the Addictive Voice itself...

AVRT creates a combative, oppositional attitude patterned after the Addictive Voice itself, and it is not a contemplative, reasoning, approach like REBT."
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
brattenj57 (01-03-2014), californiapoppy (04-04-2012), flame11 (12-01-2016), IAmAbstinent (02-02-2012), Nj1977 (12-04-2016), serious (06-29-2012)
Old 08-14-2011, 05:41 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Moscow-Pullman Greater Metropolitan Area, WA
Posts: 107
Is there any empirical evidence as to the efficacy of AVRT?

If I understand correctly, AVRT requires that one pick a date on which one makes a solemn promise never to drink/use again for whatever reason. I'm just wondering if anyone has ever tracked AVRT users to determine at the very least if any of them ever break the promise. It would seem that a program that makes no allowance whatsoever for relapse might not adequately address how one might begin again after relapse.
MickeyAnMeisce is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MickeyAnMeisce For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (04-04-2012)
Old 08-14-2011, 06:08 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
If I understand correctly, AVRT requires that one pick a date on which one makes a solemn promise never to drink/use again for whatever reason. I'm just wondering if anyone has ever tracked AVRT users to determine at the very least if any of them ever break the promise. It would seem that a program that makes no allowance whatsoever for relapse might not adequately address how one might begin again after relapse.
There is an outcome study published on the RR web site, which lists the abstinence rate at roughly 65%, but I can't link to it on account of SR rules. Personally, I am not inclined to put much weight on that study, though, and I would be curious as to larger studies myself. There are some mentioned in the "RR: The New Cure" book - I may try and track them down.

Looked at through the lens of AVRT, though, the question "What if I do decide to drink/use again, what then?" would be identified as the Addictive Voice itself, since it predicts future drinking/using. Still, some do certainly drink/use again. There is a lapse/relapse reconstruction sheet on pages 177-179 of the RR book, which is intended to identify how/why one was not able to dissociate from the AV.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (04-04-2012)
Old 08-14-2011, 06:39 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
If I understand correctly, AVRT requires that one pick a date on which one makes a solemn promise never to drink/use again for whatever reason.
...and to never change your mind. Details, details. :-)

There are two "versions" of AVRT, so to speak. In the first, the "Big Plan" is simply a decision on permanent abstinence, and the reasons for deciding on permanent abstinence are left up to the individual, and may certainly vary from person to person. One person my decide not to drink/use again because if they do, they will lose their family, while another may do so for more materialistic reasons, such as a desire to get ahead in business.

In the second variation on AVRT, though, drinking/using, in and of itself, is viewed as wrong, in the moral sense. I myself certainly balked at this suggestion initially, but if you can get yourself to accept that for you, drinking/using is not only immoral, but also the most immoral act of all, it can be prove extremely effective against the AV.

Except for people who are sociopaths, everyone has a moral conscience which will kick in automatically when contemplating doing something that we feel is morally wrong. If you can convince yourself that your drinking/using is highly immoral conduct, this reflex will kick in automatically and identify the AV almost instantly when it appears. It took me a while to get to that point, but eventually, I did.

It is not easy to do, particularly since addiction is not generally viewed as a "moral issue" these days, but if you can do it, it is extremely powerful. Once at that point, the mere suggestion of any further drinking/using is enough to cause an instinctive, almost automatic recoil.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
Arbor (10-28-2013), Aussiebutterfly (04-23-2012), californiapoppy (04-04-2012), CelticZebra (01-26-2015), Gforce23 (01-26-2013), IAmAbstinent (02-02-2012), izzy8 (05-07-2014), KaliCali (03-31-2012), MissyShelle76 (10-07-2012), pooky (09-22-2012), raku (04-14-2013), serious (06-29-2012), SoberKat9 (04-14-2013), Supercrew (08-14-2011), topspin (09-11-2011)
Old 08-14-2011, 09:41 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
Member
 
Supercrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
Posts: 1,319
I didn't use AVRT per se, but for me to quit completely I needed a mechanism as strong if not stronger than a moral issue. I basically turned drinking into a maturity issue and a gag reflex. I don't want to get into the specifics of what I made myself believe that alcohol tastes like, but the maturity side seemed to really top it off. I made myself believe that I am old enough mentally to know that drinking for me is no longer an option. I'm not a 21 year old knucklehead with nothing to lose. I realized the obsessive voice was just the dumb immature kid I used to be. That coupled with the physical gag reflex that would occur anytime I thought about drinking or even saw other people drinking was enough to get me through the first month or so, and since then it, (the voice) has completely disappeared.

Good thread AVRT!
Supercrew is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Supercrew For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (04-04-2012), freethinking (08-16-2011), Neagrm (08-28-2011), Snooper (01-02-2012), Soberpotamus (08-14-2011), Terminally Unique (08-14-2011)
Old 08-14-2011, 11:34 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by Supercrew View Post
I didn't use AVRT per se, but for me to quit completely I needed a mechanism as strong if not stronger than a moral issue. I basically turned drinking into a maturity issue and a gag reflex... That coupled with the physical gag reflex that would occur anytime I thought about drinking or even saw other people drinking was enough to get me through the first month or so, and since then it, (the voice) has completely disappeared.
You used Neuro-Linguistic Programming / Aversion Therapy, no? That's a little more believable in my book, since I can actually imagine what you mean. Either way, I consider those who quit on their own the real experts on addiction, and your stories need to be told more often. The standard "nobody can do it alone" line is simply not true, and it dissuades many from even trying to quit.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (04-04-2012), carlingford (09-20-2016), fishkiller (01-16-2020), izzy8 (05-07-2014), Jack16 (12-29-2016), KaliCali (03-31-2012), obxtacy313 (01-11-2012), pinkyreturns (01-22-2013), raku (04-14-2013), RunnerBean (04-26-2014), serious (06-29-2012), Soberpotamus (08-15-2011), Stang (09-16-2011), Supercrew (08-15-2011), topspin (09-11-2011), vahv (05-16-2014)
Old 08-14-2011, 11:46 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
Member
 
ElvisInASkirt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 413
Blog Entries: 1
Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
...and to never change your mind. Details, details. :-)

In the second variation on AVRT, though, drinking/using, in and of itself, is viewed as wrong, in the moral sense. I myself certainly balked at this suggestion initially, but if you can get yourself to accept that for you, drinking/using is not only immoral, but also the most immoral act of all, it can be prove extremely effective against the AV.

Except for people who are sociopaths, everyone has a moral conscience which will kick in automatically when contemplating doing something that we feel is morally wrong. If you can convince yourself that your drinking/using is highly immoral conduct, this reflex will kick in automatically and identify the AV almost instantly when it appears. It took me a while to get to that point, but eventually, I did.

It is not easy to do, particularly since addiction is not generally viewed as a "moral issue" these days, but if you can do it, it is extremely powerful. Once at that point, the mere suggestion of any further drinking/using is enough to cause an instinctive, almost automatic recoil.
I think if you view your drinking from the outside in it helps to see it in this light.

If you drink then you're hurting others too through worry.
If you drink you're spending more time with a bottle than with people.
If you drink you're spending more money on a bottle than on other people.
ElvisInASkirt is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ElvisInASkirt For This Useful Post:
brattenj57 (01-03-2014), californiapoppy (04-04-2012), RolyPoly (07-18-2014), RunnerBean (04-26-2014), Terminally Unique (08-14-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 09:05 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
Member
 
Supercrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
Posts: 1,319
Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
You used Neuro-Linguistic Programming / Aversion Therapy, no? That's a little more believable in my book, since I can actually imagine what you mean. Either way, I consider those who quit on their own the real experts on addiction, and your stories need to be told more often. The standard "nobody can do it alone" line is simply not true, and it dissuades many from even trying to quit.
At the time I didn't know what I was using. I have learned NLP and hypnotherapy since I started, but at the time I was using a form of CBT and my imagination. The thing I think that really iced the cake was my last 2 detox episodes. They scared the crap out of me and embarrassed the hell out of me. They were such strong and recent memories at the time it was easy to use those terrible feelings to my advantage, and recall them to the point where they would physically affect me when I thought about drinking.

I just had to be able to make myself repulsed mentally and physically to the thought of drinking. The thought of drinking brought about very real mental pictures that would bring about a physical reaction, (I would feel like gagging or dry heaving), that coupled with the positive changes I was making physically through exercise and self improvement and the positive reenforcement I was getting from my friends and family ended up making the job of beating the addictive voice kind of easy and almost pleasurable.
Supercrew is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Supercrew For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (04-04-2012), IAmAbstinent (02-02-2012), seanie1888 (03-07-2012), Snooper (01-02-2012), Soberpotamus (08-15-2011), Terminally Unique (08-15-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 10:08 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
Member
 
Vlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Coastal North Carolina
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by BodhiTree View Post
Like you, I just quit drinking on my own using pretty much AVRT though I didn't know it as such.
I'm another one.

I'm not near smart enough to understand the psychology of AVRT or the other techniques. I simply chose not to drink.

I gritted my teeth and said over and over in my head, "I choose to not drink." "I will not drink." I used pictures of my kids to remind me why I was changing my life. I changed all of the desktops on the computers I use to my kids. I put kid pics on my keychain. I glued kid pics on a Mardi Gras coin and kept it in my change pocket. I put kid pics in my wallet. One wonderful afternoon a picture taped to my dashboard kept me from going into the liquor store after I drove there.

I discovered AVRT about 6 months in. Trimpey helped me organize what I was already doing. My beast is a tough [email protected]@rd. I still sometimes hear in my head "What a tough day that was! You work so hard and deserve a drink to help you unwind," or 'What a wonderful day. Let's have a couple of drinks to celebrate."

"I choose" is powerful.
Vlad is offline  
The Following 17 Users Say Thank You to Vlad For This Useful Post:
Arbor (10-28-2013), BodhiTree (08-15-2011), californiapoppy (04-04-2012), DoubtfulDebs (08-22-2011), ElvisInASkirt (08-15-2011), IAmAbstinent (02-02-2012), Merida (04-09-2014), MissyShelle76 (10-07-2012), obxtacy313 (01-11-2012), seanie1888 (03-07-2012), SoberKat9 (04-14-2013), soberlicious (08-15-2011), Soberpotamus (08-15-2011), Spybee007 (05-01-2012), Supercrew (08-15-2011), vInDaLoO (08-22-2011), vinyl (04-09-2012)
Old 08-15-2011, 02:48 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
Member
 
sengsara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 12
So far I really like his paradigm. It is refreshing, it does not equivocate, it assigns moral consequences to bad choices. It places cause and effect and agency squarely where they belong. To the extent I've read it, I've started to actively take control of my thought processes, have not had a drink, and it feels like I'm touching solid truth.

I have one question that's been bugging me. I understand the neuropathology of the Beast, as he puts it. I understand our brains realigning our award pathways to pursue substances -- and even associated environments and symbols -- once the brain recognizes their ability to trigger its innate reward mechanism. I understand that one's ego has complete control over our choices, despite the ability of unconscious processes to commandeer parts of the ego and masquerade as "us". (The sex drive is one good example of his.)

My question is this: For someone who's never had a drink, or someone who gets drunk maybe three times a month, would "any thinking, feeling, or imagery that supports, or even suggests, [her] future use of alcohol or drugs, ever" be considered AV? Are there, in fact, rational reasons for people to want to drink?

To what extent can we talk about this as unequivocally true without resorting to the consequences it entails to the addicted? I recognize the first reaction to my question will be to identify the logic as the Beast talking. I am addicted, and I drink about 6-8 drinks every 3 or 4 days.

But, I do actually see a small set of benefits in certain social settings outside of a need to feel good all over, and I am also uncomfortable with absolutist positions for reasons beyond my own addiction. Apologies to anyone who is bothered by my line of reasoning.
sengsara is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sengsara For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (04-04-2012), izzy8 (05-07-2014), obxtacy313 (01-11-2012)
Old 08-15-2011, 03:10 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
Member
 
sengsara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 12
To further clarify (past time limit to edit): I recognize fully that I may have no choice to stop 100%. Part of me, which may in fact be pure addictive voice, cannot fully accept that there is not a spectrum of agency. There may not be for an addict like me who's been developing the twice-a-week habit for 10 years. But that does not necessarily imply a pure schism exists in all of us when it comes to pleasure-seeking situations.

I can easily see how a dissociative technique like this works powerfully. I just worry about the becoming kind of person who lives that way in many things. The anecdote about slamming the phone down on the previous poster for joking about being in" a meeting" might clarify that a little.
sengsara is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sengsara For This Useful Post:
izzy8 (05-07-2014), raku (04-14-2013)
Old 08-15-2011, 03:13 PM
  # 52 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by sengsara
Are there, in fact, rational reasons for people to want to drink?
Logical reasons, yeah. Is it reasonable for some people to drink? I think that's the better questions to ask maybe.
Soberpotamus is offline  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:16 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Originally Posted by sengsara
The anecdote about slamming the phone down on the previous poster for joking about being in" a meeting" might clarify that a little.
We all don't have to be like Trimpey

I don't drink. I'm a tyrannical b**** in the face of my AV. But I'm very, very open-minded in other areas of my life. I'd probably think Trimpey is a d*** if I ever met him. Or not...

What's very interesting to me... is that I've always thought of myself as an open-minded person. Alcohol closed me off, and I didn't realize just how much. By becoming absolutist in not drinking, it's allowed me to flourish in the areas I'd sequestered off from my own soul.
Soberpotamus is offline  
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Soberpotamus For This Useful Post:
brattenj57 (01-03-2014), flame11 (12-01-2016), heartcore (02-26-2015), izzy8 (05-07-2014), pinkyreturns (01-22-2013), serious (06-29-2012), silversky (01-05-2020), SoberSteve (12-11-2012), Spybee007 (05-01-2012), Terminally Unique (08-15-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 03:22 PM
  # 54 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by sengsara View Post
My question is this: For someone who's never had a drink, or someone who gets drunk maybe three times a month, would "any thinking, feeling, or imagery that supports, or even suggests, [her] future use of alcohol or drugs, ever" be considered AV? Are there, in fact, rational reasons for people to want to drink?
Someone who has never had a drink before would not be addicted. Their "Beast" (the realignment of survival drives towards a substance) would not exist. In effect, the Beast would never have been born. Furthermore, such a person would not have any reason to quit, no "Big Plan," and therefore, no Addictive Voice.

Originally Posted by sengsara View Post
But, I do actually see a small set of benefits in certain social settings outside of a need to feel good all over, and I am also uncomfortable with absolutist positions for reasons beyond my own addiction.
There are certain "beneficial side effects" to drugs such as alcohol, depending on how you look at it, yes. For example, alcohol does lower inhibitions, which may or may not be a benefit, depending on the situation. But, the prime reinforcement mechanism for all survival drives is pleasure - even drinking water or eating food causes a small release of dopamine to reinforce the behavior, though nowhere near the amount produced by synthetic drugs.

As for absolutist positions, it is true that they are not usually a good thing, but as pertains to an addiction, if you have finally reached the end of your rope, absolutist thinking has its place. Why play with fire?
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
brattenj57 (01-03-2014), izzy8 (05-07-2014), newwings (08-25-2011), serious (06-29-2012), Soberpotamus (08-15-2011), Supercrew (08-15-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 03:31 PM
  # 55 (permalink)  
Member
 
sengsara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 12
Thank you both: very edifying ways of thinking about that question your own words. I appreciate it.

And no Big Plan -- I think the key is going to be there, because taking full responsibility depends on an explicit choice.
sengsara is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sengsara For This Useful Post:
izzy8 (05-07-2014), Soberpotamus (08-15-2011), Terminally Unique (08-15-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 03:37 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
I discovered AVRT about 6 months in. Trimpey helped me organize what I was already doing.
AVRT is not "new" - it is as old as the hills, and people have been using variations of it for as long as people have been addicted. The only reason it is controversial is because we have been bombarded with messages that nobody can quit the old fashioned way. If you trace the development of Rational Recovery, it started out as a secular alternative which relied on meetings.

The way Trimpey tells it, after RR had spread, he started getting phone calls from alcoholics/addicts who were still going to RR meetings after several years, which was not his original intention. He had imagined that people would eventually move on, and so he shut down the meetings.

The real message of Rational Recovery is that you can indeed do it alone, and that once you learn AVRT, you don't need to rely on RR any longer.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
izzy8 (05-07-2014), Morning Glory (08-15-2011), raku (04-14-2013), Soberpotamus (08-15-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 04:20 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
My purpose in sharing the anecdote was two-fold...

a) I just thought it was funny, but I am slightly twisted anyway so whatev...

b) I try very hard to pay attention to the following principles from "the fourteen precepts of the order of interbeing" (Thich Nhat Hanh)
#1. do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, thoery, or ideaology. all systems of thought are guiding means; they are not absolute truth.
#2. do not think that the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. learn and practice non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. truth is found in life and not merely in conceptual knowledge. be ready to learn throughout your entire life and to observe reality in yourself and in the world at all times.


I have "observed reality in myself" plenty of times and I will not drink again....that's my reality. To say that I could drink doesn't scare me because certainly I could go right now and do it...full well knowing the consequences (the reality I have observed in myself) um...no, thanks-I'm good with all that. It's just moot at this point for me.

So in the above paragraph there is plenty of stuff for both wilson and trimpey to argue against. but, in the meantime I (and millions of others) are happily sober...so...hmmmmm

I agree with many of trimpey's ideas...I embrace much of AVRT...i just find him (and others) dogmatic...no biggie...just sayin'
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
BodhiTree (08-15-2011), Cali013 (02-15-2014), KaliCali (03-31-2012), Morning Glory (08-15-2011), Soberpotamus (08-15-2011), Symmetry (08-16-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 04:27 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
If it makes you feel any better, soberlicious, I could also share some anecdotes, so I didn't find your story disturbing, nor do I doubt that it happened. Don't ask me to share mine, though. :-)
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
Morning Glory (08-15-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 04:41 PM
  # 59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
and AVRT...i must respectfully disagree... Trimpey does in fact openly discourage conventional views on addiction/treatment and most certainly openly opposes group support of any kind...he goes on to give "facts" as to how other approaches doom one to failure. Not only can you do it alone...you must if you want to "truly" recover.

He does exactly what he faults others for doing.

As a rational person...that doesn't make sense to me

love this thread. I have learned so much from all of you.
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
Morning Glory (08-15-2011), Tippingpoint (08-23-2011)
Old 08-15-2011, 04:45 PM
  # 60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
touche, avrt
soberlicious is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:27 PM.