Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion

Blogs


Notices

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion

Old 08-22-2011, 05:49 AM
  # 81 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by DoubtfulDebs View Post
i think the 'all or nothing' absolutism of avrt works because it replaces the need to assess each seperate urge (internal image, emotion, or external trigger etc) to drink with a simple rule - 'i will never drink again, and i will never change my mind'.
That was my experience as well. No need to recall all the bad stuff or ponder the pros and cons of drinking whenever an urge came. The answer was always the same: never.

Originally Posted by DoubtfulDebs View Post
heaven knows i went years thinking i could examine each craving on a case-by-case basis and 99 times out of every hundred i'd lose, the 'beast' of my addicted mind/body knew my specific triggers and weak points only too well and unlike me it didn't give up until it got that one thing that it wanted.
Precisely. The beast is immutable, uses reason in its quest, and plays every side of every argument in order to be fed.

Originally Posted by DoubtfulDebs View Post
but i can't really do this method justice, other people on here esp. avrt (the member) write better about this stuff than me and thank you for that twist on 'vertigo' - had that a few times and i will be using the new phrasing for sure!! i'll definitely be getting the new book when i get home.
A word of caution about the new book ("The Art of AVRT"). It is an in-house publication, and contains many of Trimpey's ideas on subjects which I consider well outside the scope of addiction. It contains some rather provocative viewpoints. While I enjoyed parts of it, I can't really recommend it at this point, but that's just me.

Thanks for checking in, BTW. I was somewhat curious as to how things had worked out for you.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
anew (08-22-2011), californiapoppy (02-28-2012), soberlicious (08-22-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 06:35 AM
  # 82 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: columbus, ohio
Posts: 6
whats the difference

Can anyone tell me the difference between this tecnique and "stop thought" I currently seeking additional tools to use in my recovery.
johnh123 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to johnh123 For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012)
Old 08-22-2011, 06:53 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by johnh123 View Post
Can anyone tell me the difference between this tecnique and "stop thought" I currently seeking additional tools to use in my recovery.
Thought stopping techniques, which belong in the cognitive-behavioral school of psychology, tend to focus on getting rid of the thoughts to drink or use by replacing them with other thoughts. There are some similarities, as in the use of a mental "STOP" word when cravings hit, which is an attempt to avoid debate, but the AVRT paradigm assumes that it may not be possible to remove desire, and that it is futile to try.

There is no "relapse prevention" or "coping with triggers" in AVRT. It is assumed that there will be situations which bring on thoughts of drinking or using, and that they may come up at any time. With AVRT, you don't avoid these thoughts, or try to get rid of them. You simply dissociate from such thoughts by recognizing them as coming from a separate entity, and they lose their power. Over time, they become weaker and less frequent.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), DoubtfulDebs (08-29-2011), freshstart57 (09-04-2011), IAmAbstinent (02-05-2012), skywalker91 (04-13-2016), Supercrew (08-23-2011), wellwisher (08-22-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 07:41 AM
  # 84 (permalink)  
Member
 
ru12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,367
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
I'm another one.

I'm not near smart enough to understand the psychology of AVRT or the other techniques. I simply chose not to drink.

"I choose" is powerful.
This rings true for me as well. I simply decided that I won't drink again. Ever. Under any cirucmstance. I too see it as a moral issue. When I drink I cause the suffering of many: my family that frets and worries, society in general and me in particular. AVRT formalizes what I sort of did alone.
ru12 is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to ru12 For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), IAmAbstinent (02-05-2012), istherehope999 (03-23-2012), pooky (09-22-2012), Snooper (01-02-2012), Stang (09-16-2011), Supercrew (08-23-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 07:52 AM
  # 85 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by ru12 View Post
This rings true for me as well. I simply decided that I won't drink again. Ever. Under any cirucmstance. I too see it as a moral issue. When I drink I cause the suffering of many: my family that frets and worries, society in general and me in particular. AVRT formalizes what I sort of did alone.
This is a common feeling. AVRT is essentially instruction on planned, permanent abstinence, based on the way that people have naturally recovered from addiction throughout human history, now made available by Rational Recovery for contemporary use. The knowledge is not "new" per se, and even today, 75% of recoveries occur naturally, without any type of treatment.

In the present addiction treatment and recovery ecosystem, though, this knowledge on precisely "how" to quit, although often sought by addicted people, is very rarely taught. I recommend AVRT simply because it is a lot easier for me to pass along this knowledge using the materials from Rational Recovery, but I could certainly teach it to someone else without them if I really had to.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), IAmAbstinent (02-05-2012)
Old 08-22-2011, 10:05 AM
  # 86 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Thanks

I just wanted to publicly thank Morning Glory for allowing this thread on here. I get the distinct impression that it would not have been possible without her. Hopefully we are not disrupting the rest of the forums too much, and people will continue to keep the discussion civil.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
Aussiebutterfly (04-23-2012), californiapoppy (02-28-2012), Neagrm (08-28-2011), onlythetruth (08-24-2011), RobbyRobot (02-11-2013), seanie1888 (03-08-2012), soberlicious (08-22-2011), Supercrew (08-23-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 02:43 PM
  # 87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
I have only just recently joined SR. I enjoy debate and I am personally impressed with the exchange of ideas I have seen in the secular forum. I'm glad they allowed this thread too because this is the kind of stuff I was looking for when I stumbled across SR.
Thanks for welcoming me here. I think you guys are super cool.

"what is popular is not always right and what is right is not always popular."

peace
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), PaperDolls (08-24-2011), Supercrew (08-23-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 02:52 PM
  # 88 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Moscow-Pullman Greater Metropolitan Area, WA
Posts: 107
[QUOTE=AVRT;3077755]That's basically the "key" insight of AVRT. All addicted people hear voices tell them to drink/use in a thousand different ways, or see pictures in their mind of their favorite stuff. Most chemical dependency counselors are well aware of this phenomenon. The AV normally appears to be "you" until you recognize that the AV is just an expression of base urges, not necessarily originating in your rational mind.

Trimpey basically repackaged the "lizard brain" theory of addiction and called it the "structural model" of addiction. Some rehabs, notably Caron, have lectures on this paradigm. What I find interesting is that NIDA and others are presumably "discovering" this now, and giving it some more weight than usual. If you google "lizard brain addiction" you'll find all sorts of "new" articles on it.[QUOTE]

Except the Structural Model does not fit with the most current evidence on the neurophisiology of addiction. All of the neural functioning responsible for addiction occurs within the part of brain that Triompey identifies as the "I".

MickeyAnMeisce is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MickeyAnMeisce For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), onlythetruth (08-24-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 03:12 PM
  # 89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
ok this is very interesting...but I'm having trouble making heads or tails of it. Are you saying that the limbic system is not mainly responsible for "driving" addiction?
soberlicious is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012)
Old 08-22-2011, 03:37 PM
  # 90 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Moscow-Pullman Greater Metropolitan Area, WA
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
ok this is very interesting...but I'm having trouble making heads or tails of it. Are you saying that the limbic system is not mainly responsible for "driving" addiction?
Actually, I'm saying that the limbic system is not the part of the brain that Trimpey identifies with thehome of "The Beast".
MickeyAnMeisce is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MickeyAnMeisce For This Useful Post:
soberlicious (08-22-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 04:24 PM
  # 91 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by MickeyAnMeisce View Post
Actually, I'm saying that the limbic system is not the part of the brain that Trimpey identifies with thehome of "The Beast".
The structural model diagram is obviously an oversimplification, and it is not meant to be 100% precise. It does not actually matter where the lower brain functions physically reside, though. Conceptually, from the addicted person's perspective, all that matters is that they understand that their cravings/urges are being generated by the paleomammalian brain/limbic system, and not their rational, logical mind.

It is known that the insula plays a role in addiction, even though it is physically located in the "upper" part of the brain on the diagram. Smokers who have experienced damage to it explain that they literally "forgot" the urge to smoke. I found that rather interesting, since the insula forms a link between the limbic system and the higher brain functions. It would almost seem like the smokers' "addictive voice" megaphone was silenced.

To be honest, though, one doesn't even need to use Trimpey's "structural model" at all in order to properly apply AVRT. One could attribute the "Addictive Voice" to Satan, for example, as some religions do, and still get the same effect. All that matters is that the AV is thought of as originating outside of one's rational, logical mind.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
anew (08-22-2011), californiapoppy (02-28-2012), IAmAbstinent (02-05-2012), RobbyRobot (02-11-2013), seanie1888 (03-08-2012), soberlicious (08-22-2011), wellwisher (08-22-2011), Zencat (08-24-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 05:18 PM
  # 92 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
To be honest, though, one doesn't even need to use Trimpey's "structural model" at all in order to properly apply AVRT. One could attribute the "Addictive Voice" to Satan, for example, as some religions do, and still get the same effect. All that matters is that the AV is thought of as originating outside of one's rational, logical mind.
It should be noted that while AVRT is considered a "secular" approach, since it leaves matters of religion up to the individual, and many atheists are fans or AVRT, Jack Trimpey himself is not atheist. He has stated that he got the idea for naming "The Beast" in large part from the Bible. Indeed, AVRT is peculiar in that some of its biggest fans are atheists or very religious Christians.

Trimpey even mentions Satan's temptation of Christ from Matthew 4:5-11 in the book as an example of "the Beast" in the New Testament. If it makes more sense to someone to think of it that way, then he encourages it. He states on page 220 of the RR book:

The expression "It's against my religion" is perfectly congruent with AVRT; the decision [the "Big Plan"] is one's own, a responsibility to one's religion or God.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), onlythetruth (08-24-2011), soberlicious (08-22-2011)
Old 08-22-2011, 06:06 PM
  # 93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
ok I see. and while I am into the brain stuff, I do agree that it doesn't really matter where the thoughts are coming from per se in applying AVRT.

The satan example also has strong parallels to the story of buddha and mara. It is fascinating to me how the struggles of temptation have been examined over eras and across cultures and religions. It appears people have been dealing with addiction since the beginning of time (however it is that one defines that )
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), IAmAbstinent (02-05-2012), raku (04-14-2013), Terminally Unique (08-22-2011), Zencat (08-24-2011)
Old 08-23-2011, 08:26 PM
  # 94 (permalink)  
Eyes Open, No Fear
 
Cerberus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
I just wanted to publicly thank Morning Glory for allowing this thread on here. I get the distinct impression that it would not have been possible without her. Hopefully we are not disrupting the rest of the forums too much, and people will continue to keep the discussion civil.
is this thread truly causing that much of an issue in the rest of the forums? I am fairly new here and trying to figure this place out. Perhaps I am just a bit too open minded then. Regardless, I am grateful for this thread as well.

I have just started reading Rational Recovery and I am stunned to realize that this is basically what I have been doing over the past few months. Just the thought of anything involving 12 steps shuts me down immediately and for a brief time I thought there may be something wrong with ME. Apparently not so much.

I also realized that I have used this method once before. I used to self injure and went for a few years just thinking that was the way I was and no sense in even fighting it. Much self exploration, defending each cut, trying to figure out what the f** was wrong with me and one day I just had enough, told myself that is it, I simply do not do this anymore and I never will again. That was about 8 years ago and much like quitting alcohol has been, it was easier than I ever thought. Every once in a long while the SI beast does creep up and remind me of the way I used to deal. But just like that I recognize it for what it is, feel whatever I am feeling and it is true again: I don't do that and I never will again.

This thread is super cool and dreamy (to quote Marsha Brady. man could I age myself a bit more please?) and I hope everyone keeps checking in. I look forward to reading the intelligent debate here
Cerberus is offline  
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Cerberus For This Useful Post:
auden67 (06-01-2012), californiapoppy (02-28-2012), CelticZebra (01-27-2015), Chimp (05-11-2012), Dominorose (02-25-2012), IAmAbstinent (02-05-2012), newwings (08-25-2011), onlythetruth (08-24-2011), Snooper (01-02-2012), soberlicious (08-24-2011), Terminally Unique (08-23-2011)
Old 08-24-2011, 12:10 AM
  # 95 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 18
Wow. I am so elated to have clicked on the original Secular page to find this and that. I do not know much of anything about either. However, traditional NA does not work for me as I am Agnostic..and other reasons. This AVRT makes a lot of sense also. I have some reading ahead of me..only had time 2read about 4comments. But, this makes SOOO much sense. I am just estatic. This is my 1st time sober in many many years and this defiantly gives me some hope.
kiddo588 is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to kiddo588 For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), Chimp (05-11-2012), raku (04-14-2013), Zencat (08-24-2011)
Old 08-24-2011, 11:11 AM
  # 96 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by kiddo588 View Post
This AVRT makes a lot of sense also. I have some reading ahead of me..only had time 2read about 4comments. But, this makes SOOO much sense. I am just estatic. This is my 1st time sober in many many years and this defiantly gives me some hope.
Kiddo,

I sent you some links to information on AVRT. Check your private messages. Although I certainly recommend the book course, those links should give you an idea of how it works, and some people "get it" without the book at all.
Terminally Unique is offline  
Old 08-24-2011, 11:24 AM
  # 97 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 18
I did a little reading this morning on AVRT. The 28 bullets. I am going to buy this book, hopefully it is at the bookstore. I have been having a real problem with a certain aspect of my recovery. I am telling myself that I am now shy, anxious..ect. That I cant be outgoing like I was or just be care free, so to speak. I feel up-tight, I guess. I have missed significant work time. I work in a bar, and have to interact with many people and be very outgoing. I have been afraid this is the new me. But, in the same aspect there are times where I get the impulse to be my old self...then I shut it down. The book may answer this question after I read it. But, could this be the AV? I have been having this struggle...well if I take this oxy then I will be care free in my words and personality again...(I know this is obviously the AV) But, I am having a hard struggle on who I really am(I have been using various drugs for over 10years now). Am I really just a shy, introverted person? Or is the AV telling me I am without it? I miss my outgoing self.
Your experience and insight would be appreciated. I am very new to recovery.

Last edited by kiddo588; 08-24-2011 at 11:26 AM. Reason: Just seen reply from AVRT self-recovered after writing this post. Sorry. Thanks for the links.
kiddo588 is offline  
Old 08-24-2011, 11:39 AM
  # 98 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
is this thread truly causing that much of an issue in the rest of the forums?
Rational Recovery severed all links to the addiction treatment industry and the recovery group movement in 1994, shutting down even its own meetings, opting instead to focus on providing concise instruction on self-recovery. AVRT, since it entails administering your own cure, turns the entire modern treatment paradigm on its head.

There are many people who are threatened by the mere suggestion that people can quit on their own, and who would dearly love to keep this information hidden from the still suffering alcoholic/addict. Some will routinely misinform people about the nature of AVRT, often saying that it is based on willpower, that it is about moderation, or that it only works for problem drinkers, and not for alcoholics.

To be fair, though, there are also quite a few RR fans who have had bad experiences with traditional treatment, and who also love to stir the pot. Such people have apparently caused some disruption on here in the past, but I think that if discussion stays mostly confined here, it should hopefully keep that to a minimum.

Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
I have just started reading Rational Recovery and I am stunned to realize that this is basically what I have been doing over the past few months... for a brief time I thought there may be something wrong with ME. Apparently not so much.
This is a common feeling, and no, there is nothing wrong with you. :-)
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), RobbyRobot (02-11-2013)
Old 08-24-2011, 12:54 PM
  # 99 (permalink)  
Eyes Open, No Fear
 
Cerberus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by AVRT View Post
There are many people who are threatened by the mere suggestion that people can quit on their own, and who would dearly love to keep this information hidden from the still suffering alcoholic/addict. Some will routinely misinform people about the nature of AVRT, often saying that it is based on willpower, that it is about moderation, or that it only works for problem drinkers, and not for alcoholics.
Ok, I do get this - people feeling threatened by something other than what has been traditionally been used to solve a problem - I understand RR severing links to these programs as well, considering. I suppose that all of the steps in the logo on the main page of this forum should really have clued me in, but then is this entire website, with the exception of this forum, only or mainly AA/12 step based? I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure this site out as I've said. On first inspection this site seems to advocate individualism and personal experience, which is why I decided to join but I do notice a definite...slant, perhaps? in the advice in the main forums. You know what I mean, no need to get into that any further.

Until finding this thread I really was considering that I am likely not in the right place here - I am tired of hearing the same attacks over and over in the main forums and of defending my own point of view and even being relegated to this thread is annoying. Can't we all just get along (to simplify!)

So I have edited this post to death in an effort to not repeat and rehash. Maybe this is just my own rant to get off my chest but I think we all have the same goal - to stop drinking - and whatever works. Works. IMHO.
Cerberus is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Cerberus For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), newwings (08-25-2011), seanie1888 (03-08-2012), Zencat (08-24-2011)
Old 08-24-2011, 01:16 PM
  # 100 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
I suppose that all of the steps in the logo on the main page of this forum should really have clued me in, but then is this entire website, with the exception of this forum, only or mainly AA/12 step based?
My understanding is that the secular connections forum did not always exist, and that it is a more recent development, but I don't really know the whole story myself. Perhaps one of the admins or mods could elaborate on that if they see fit.

As for the giant logo at the top of every forum page, I have my browser set to block it, along with most of the animated smilies. They simply do not show up on my browser. This works for me.

Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
Until finding this thread I really was considering that I am likely not in the right place here...
This is part of why I stick around for now, and why my signature line and user title are what they are. I do get inquiries and thanks via private message as a result, so obviously some people are interested.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
californiapoppy (02-28-2012), Cerberus (08-24-2011)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:40 PM.