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Irrational beliefs

Old 05-01-2009, 07:31 PM
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Irrational beliefs

Ok...so I'm stumped....

just because a belief doesn't make me happy doesn't make it irrational does it....i looked at the readings on irrational beliefs and it seeemed like it could sorta include anything and everything you wanted to include or that someone else wanted to tell you was an irrational belief.

If every expereince i have had over the last 50 years tells me the belief is true....just because it's negative and painful..it can still be rational right???

I mean what is more reliable than that with wich we have direct expreeince with over and over and over again....????
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:44 PM
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Are you talking about beliefs or feelings?
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:47 PM
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definately beliefs...beliefs that result in certain feelings but beliefs ....

sorry i can't be more specific...

don't you believe certain things that some others around you would say were irrational...but you don't think they are?
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:51 PM
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Well... I believe pets should be treated like family members and my gf finds that irrational.
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:54 PM
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Ananda I agree with you. That sticky was confusing... Its not you. It seemed at timnes to equate negative self-talk with irrationality, which isnt the same thing. For example, its perfectly rational to believe you're ugly if most people think you're ugly. Bad example but u know what I mean.
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:55 PM
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I see what you're getting at... just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they ain't after ya!
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Old 05-01-2009, 07:58 PM
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actually it was perfect ......well..ok i'm not uglyl, but

there are things that are true about me and that i may not be able to change....or true about others that i may not be able to change...

They are very negative beliefs i hold, and they cause me pain and cause problems in my life....but if they are true....they aren't irrational...

just sorta sorting through this in my head.....

maybe i've grabbed the wrong tool to deal with this....i think it's important to try different ones till you find the right one...
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:53 AM
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Ananda, are those beliefs really important to you, or are they just there to ruin the good thoughts you could have about yourself? I'm not sure I really understand what you're trying to get at, but I definitely think you're better off focusing on good beliefs than things that get you down. I'm something of an ostrich, fi I don't like something and can't do anything about it, I'll try to erase it from my mind. That used to be difficult, now I'm pretty good at it, things just don't seem so important anymore (probably comes with aging)
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:13 AM
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ok...well...the beliefs ...oh bother....this is too hard to sort

but yeah...it isn't something i have to focus on...that is a good point...i am what i am. I even like me ....

mmm...ok so i'm maybe getting on track here...

well...i don't think beliefs are good or bad...they are just beliefs...

i need to get back to reading some of my zen...

I even know what it is i need to read....

but that means looking through all the unpacked boxes in my dressing room that is currently storage lol

I look it up and let you know if it helps
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:59 AM
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This is one of the toughest SMART tools for me. If you'd like, I am more than welcome to discuss some of your sticking points. Once I "got it" I found a lot more peace. Of course, your mileage may vary.
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:19 AM
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I know some people say I'm really negative.. but thats according to them. Like, just because they don't agree with me I become the "negative" one. For example, its not negative to make fun of Bush, but if I criticize Obama then suddenly I'm the negative one. Or if I speak out against past atrocities like the bombing of Hiroshima, then I'm "focusing on the negative, not the positive", but if people make movies on the Holocaust, then they're not being negative. Just my experience, and its very frustrating that negative is used to demean perfectly rational views.
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ananda View Post
Ok...so I'm stumped....

just because a belief doesn't make me happy doesn't make it irrational does it....i looked at the readings on irrational beliefs and it seeemed like it could sorta include anything and everything you wanted to include or that someone else wanted to tell you was an irrational belief.

If every expereince i have had over the last 50 years tells me the belief is true....just because it's negative and painful..it can still be rational right???

I mean what is more reliable than that with wich we have direct expreeince with over and over and over again....????

Here is a brief SMARTRecovery tool that helped me A LOT.

I hope it helps you as well. Let me know where you have trouble. This is for everyone as I plan to do a meeting soon on iB's (irrational beliefs).

The following is 2006 - 2009 SMART Recovery
RATIONAL VS. IRRATIONAL:
THE 3 KEY QUESTIONS
TO ASK YOURSELF ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS

1. Does my Belief help me or hinder me over the long run?

Rational thinking is defined as thinking that is helpful to you over the long run.

Irrational thinking is defined as thinking that hinders you over the long run.

Follow-up question: If my Belief hinders me, what Rational Belief would be more likely to help me reach my goals and to feel better?


2. Is my Belief consistent with known facts and reality?


Rational thinking is defined as thinking that is consistent with known facts.

Irrational thinking is thinking that is inconsistent with (or unsupported by) known facts.

Follow-up question: If my Belief is inconsistent with reality, then what Rational Belief would be more consistent with reality?


3. Is my Belief logical?


Logical means thinking that makes sense. For example, if you said you would very much like to succeed at something, does it logically follow that therefore you must succeed? No, the necessity for success does not follow logically from the fact that success would be beneficial. Or does it make sense to think: "Because something is bad, I can't stand it"?

Follow-up question: If my Belief is illogical, what Rational Belief would make more sense logically?
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:26 AM
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Thanks Alera, I like that. I sort of live that way without thinking about it I guess, but it's nice to have it spelled out, I might be able to explain better when people tell me that I run away from reality for example. My answer has always been "If I can't do anything about it, I just have to accept that it's there, and if I don't like it, I'll ignore it."
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:31 AM
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thanks alera...i have alot of irrational beliefs..they usually start out everyone, no one, always, never.....

The one i'm dealing with now may not fit in that category....or it may haven't decided yet....

1. Does my Belief help me or hinder me over the long run?

Rational thinking is defined as thinking that is helpful to you over the long run.

Irrational thinking is defined as thinking that hinders you over the long run.
believing this particular negative thing about me, can lead to me not being willing to take actions that might lead to a different conclusion, but then again....if i ignore this belief based on past expereinces....well..when i do that i tend to find the negative belief i have reinforced.

but some of the later stuff looks like it deals with that aspect

For example, if you said you would very much like to succeed at something, does it logically follow that therefore you must succeed? No, the necessity for success does not follow logically from the fact that success would be beneficial.
ok..so this is really really gonna require alot of work to understand and change.....I mean this is such a core belief I have....

I look forward to a meeting on it and will probably have to deal with some one on one work on it with people i trust not to laugh too hard at me
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:33 AM
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Not sure if this is appropriate to this discussion, but it's what's coming up for me, so thought I would share:

I'm finding that some of the life-long beliefs I've had about myself are shifting and changing as I move forward on my recovery path. My early experiences have influenced both positively and negatively, my beliefs about things/self, and as I work my program and practice mindful awareness, I realize that some things I've believed to be my truths, just aren't true, at least not anymore. That's when I get a chance to recreate myself and my life.

I also have seen others have beliefs about themselves that weren't true, and yet they would swear it was, even though their actions were quite the opposite!
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:21 PM
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"just because a belief doesn't make me happy doesn't make it irrational does it...."

I would think that an individual would be the one to determine that. I mean what is rational to me, could be irrational to another, with a few exceptions like the belief held by some that despite evidence to the contrary, the earth is only six thousand years old.

In self-examination, I uncover false beliefs about myself and how I relate to the world around me. In the final analysis, some of these belief systems do make me unhappy and some actually cause harm to others. But that's my experience.

If something you believe makes you happy, who am I to say it's irrational?
Jim
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Old 05-02-2009, 01:02 PM
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Jim.. Many irrational views have to be confonted. Fascism in Germany was making people happy but that didn't turn out too well did it? Likewise, we can say "support our troops" till the cows come home but that doesn't make the rationale for war any more believable.
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Old 05-02-2009, 02:04 PM
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i'm leaning toward the idea that the original belief may be true and then i am expounding upon it with untruths that cause more problems.

I fouond it helpful to look at how my belief is harming others...well the original belief about myself isn't...but from it are springing a hundred irrational beliefs that are where the problem lies.

Thx Jim....something in your post triggered that.

So i have a beleif that has consistantly been proven true and is rational..but from it spring a bunch of irrational beliefs about how to deal with the problem...that cause pain and suffering to myself and others.

Ok..like i said this will be a long process but i will look at this and continue to grow
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Old 05-02-2009, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
Jim.. Many irrational views have to be confonted. Fascism in Germany was making people happy but that didn't turn out too well did it? Likewise, we can say "support our troops" till the cows come home but that doesn't make the rationale for war any more believable.
I agree, but I'll leave the confronting to those better equipped to handle it. I tried my hand at social activism and raising awareness and what came of it was that I was angry & tired. I'm more along the lines of another quote from Gahndi, "Be the change you want to see."
Jim
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Old 05-02-2009, 03:17 PM
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I think I need to clarify myself. I believe that the one person whose irrational beliefs I must be concerned with are my own.
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