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Irrational beliefs

Old 05-02-2009, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ananda View Post
Ok...so I'm stumped....

just because a belief doesn't make me happy doesn't make it irrational does it....i looked at the readings on irrational beliefs and it seeemed like it could sorta include anything and everything you wanted to include or that someone else wanted to tell you was an irrational belief.

If every expereince i have had over the last 50 years tells me the belief is true....just because it's negative and painful..it can still be rational right???

I mean what is more reliable than that with wich we have direct expreeince with over and over and over again....????
I agree with you completely Ananda, in what I bolded and the rest as well. In fact, I just sent an email today echoing similar thoughts. There is depression (in my case) and negative and painful thoughts (in it sounds like our cases) that are valid. "The Secret" isn't going to magically make reality disappear. Perhaps I am being "negative," so please consider the source. FWIW, I will be 50 (yikes) in September. At times I think age (and hormones?) might have something to do with where I am at.
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Old 05-02-2009, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
I know some people say I'm really negative.. but thats according to them. Like, just because they don't agree with me I become the "negative" one. For example, its not negative to make fun of Bush, but if I criticize Obama then suddenly I'm the negative one. Or if I speak out against past atrocities like the bombing of Hiroshima, then I'm "focusing on the negative, not the positive", but if people make movies on the Holocaust, then they're not being negative. Just my experience, and its very frustrating that negative is used to demean perfectly rational views.
Hmm, sorry I don't want to digress too much, but I do agree with what I bolded Ok, so I'm a librul.

And I appreciate this is a thinking crowd, which is all good.
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Old 05-02-2009, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jimhere View Post
I think I need to clarify myself. I believe that the one person whose irrational beliefs I must be concerned with are my own.
Really? So you've never told anyone that they're in denial?
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Old 05-02-2009, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jimhere View Post
"just because a belief doesn't make me happy doesn't make it irrational does it...."

I would think that an individual would be the one to determine that. I mean what is rational to me, could be irrational to another, with a few exceptions like the belief held by some that despite evidence to the contrary, the earth is only six thousand years old.

In self-examination, I uncover false beliefs about myself and how I relate to the world around me. In the final analysis, some of these belief systems do make me unhappy and some actually cause harm to others. But that's my experience.

If something you believe makes you happy, who am I to say it's irrational?
Jim
Seeing the world through rose colored glasses is often healthier than not. However, I also read a study that depressed people are MORE in touch with reality. I have told myself I am better off choosing the most positive belief - when I don't know for sure - but this would be like someone ignoring their portfolio in September, 2008. At some point, a person must acknowledge reality for what it's worth. And this is why I post in the secular forum!
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Old 05-02-2009, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
Really? So you've never told anyone that they're in denial?
Er0ica, you lost me, bro.
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Old 05-02-2009, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Seeing the world through rose colored glasses is often healthier than not. However, I also read a study that depressed people are MORE in touch with reality. I have told myself I am better off choosing the most positive belief - when I don't know for sure - but this would be like someone ignoring their portfolio in September, 2008. At some point, a person must acknowledge reality for what it's worth. And this is why I post in the secular forum!
I am often accused by my gf of being negative, when I feel that I'm only being objective or realistic.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
I am often accused by my gf of being negative, when I feel that I'm only being objective or realistic.
Yeah, and I'm often accused of not being "positive" when I live in reality. Won't get into details, but I am much more secure than he is. Nonetheless, he is VERY happy with his life - more power to him. Meanwhile, I concern myself with the details of bills and retirement. Of course, I have to get a job to retire from! And, BTW, he is the mentally healthy one, per all indicators, and I am the crazy one, in spite of all financial indicators to the contrary. Isn't that supposed to be part of addiction? Complete irresponsiblity on my part? Here is a guy who doesn't drink, no drugs, has had a job for six years, only does the casino. Yet I am the one who is "mentally ill" with a house paid off and not broke. Grrr...ok, got into details - sorry.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Yeah, and I'm often accused of not being "positive" when I live in reality. Won't get into details, but I am much more secure than he is. Nonetheless, he is VERY happy with his life - more power to him. Meanwhile, I concern myself with the details of bills and retirement. Of course, I have to get a job to retire from!
I'm actually much more accepting of things being the way they are than she is, even though she is doing much better in life then I am.

But this leaky roof & mold biznass is gettin' to me...
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
I'm actually much more accepting of things being the way they are than she is, even though she is doing much better in life then I am.

But this leaky roof & mold biznass is gettin' to me...
Well, you DO live in a place where there is rain and mold. I live in a place with sun and termites. I was late in paying my bill and now have termites - again. I think it's much healthier to be accepting than not. BUT there is a difference between acceptance and not seeing reality, as you well know.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Well, you DO live in a place where there is rain and mold.
Hey, I'm in Eastern WA. It's considered a high desert, lol...
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by doorknob View Post
Hey, I'm in Eastern WA. It's considered a high desert, lol...
Oh well, maybe you do HAVE termites then! All I know is they say there are two kinds of houses in Az - the ones who have termites and the ones who will. It's just part of the deal. Fortunately, I have a warranty. Those little buggers will eat up a house. So..your mold and mildew aren't getting my attention too much!
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ananda View Post
just because a belief doesn't make me happy doesn't make it irrational does it....
I think I understand. Like grieving the death of a loved one. I am sad that she is no longer around for me to love her and receive love back. Then the irrational belief could be: now that she gone I'll never love again as I did then she was alive.
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:08 PM
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I think everyone is mixing up belief with truth, Just because a belief is untrue does not make it irrational. We think, think, feel and express in an artistic manner not a scientific one. One says God and and points to a painting on the wall of an old man with a grey beard. He may believe that is God because of our limited or creative way of thinking and explaining things but it is by no means irrational, the truth may be far from that painting but still hold much of what is meaningful to our experience. What is more a more rational explanation of a chair a drawing, a poem, a mathematical equation or directions to assemble the chair. It depends on your perspective and these are all beliefs none more rational than the other. The truth lies somewhere else beyond . We all draw the line somewhere, if I believe that your building is on fire right now thats irrational because its based on nothing but thats turning the conversation into some existential rubbish.
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Eroica View Post
Really? So you've never told anyone that they're in denial?
As a matter of fact I have.

Listen, I'm not into your little games, let's not ruin what has been an excellent discussion.
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jimhere View Post
As a matter of fact I have.

Listen, I'm not into your little games, let's not ruin what has been an excellent discussion.
Okay, Katie weighs in like a true middle child, which I am. Let's all just get along
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Old 05-02-2009, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Katie09 View Post
Seeing the world through rose colored glasses is often healthier than not. However, I also read a study that depressed people are MORE in touch with reality. I have told myself I am better off choosing the most positive belief - when I don't know for sure - but this would be like someone ignoring their portfolio in September, 2008. At some point, a person must acknowledge reality for what it's worth. And this is why I post in the secular forum!

Katie, it's nice to see you back. Actually, I do live in a place where there is rain and mold. I live in Western Washington.

I am no pollyanna. In fact I get accused of being too serious all the time, when in fact I am a realist. I was asked here if I've ever told someone that they are in denial, and I replied that as a matter of fact, I have. To not acknowledge one's present reality and to hide behind platitudes and cliches while dying of alcoholism is denial. Of course, as you have pointed out, that state of mind can apply to any situation in life. Several years ago, I went through a period of what you might call depression. It caused me to question everything I believed at the time. In fact it was a time of dis-illusionment which was necessary. I couldn't pretend I was OK when I wasn't. I.m actually grateful for that time because I made peace with life the way it is and with myself the way I am.

On the other hand, I am a fairly optimistic person. I believe that there is always hope and that everything eventually comes out in the wash and works together for the good.

Anyway my two-bits. I won't intrude on you all's forum any more.
Jim

Last edited by jimhere; 05-02-2009 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zencat View Post
I think I understand. Like grieving the death of a loved one. I am sad that she is no longer around for me to love her and receive love back. Then the irrational belief could be: now that she gone I'll never love again as I did then she was alive.
thats sorta what i'm going with here....as someone else said to me in a discussion...

If I believe i am fat/ugly/old....well that is truth (sure you can argue cause it is subjective...but i think you all know what i mean)

but what do i do with that believe ...where do i go with it....that can be irrational...

I am fat/ugly/old...therefore now one will ever love me, therefore no one will let me be in the play, therefore I will never look good in a suit..whatever..

It's the making of eroneous logic from this truth....I may never win the beauty contest for 21 years old...but many of the places i may go with it may be illogical and preclude me from a full life

and ah...by the way....what i'm dealing with is none of these things....i'm stealthy that way (snirkle)
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:52 PM
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jim, you don't have to leave.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Bamboozle View Post
jim, you don't have to leave.
Appreciate that, bam. I am leaving for the night though. Got to get my beauty sleep, Goodnight.
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Old 05-02-2009, 09:59 PM
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Good night. I should try to get some sleep myself.
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