New With A Question....
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New With A Question....
Hello -
I am wondering where I fit in. I am a very spiritual person - not in the organized religion sense at all - but more Eastern philosophies, mindfulness, etc. I want to incorporate a sense of Higher Being (even if I chose to call it Higher Self/One Consciousness) into my recovery. I am also an avid fan of psychology. AA is definitely not the place for me. I totally support those who have found it helpful, but I am not willing to go back. I have tried it and felt out of place and emotionally worse by the time I left. What kills me the most is the emphasis in AA on ego deflation - since my ego is already in the gutter. I believe there is a big difference between honestly sharing difficult emotions and "being on the pity pot". I don't feel comfortable calling myself a drunk or listening to "war stories" (and I don't feel it is because I am not "humble" enough). I don't totally believe in the powerlessness aspect or necessarily the medical model (I am still sorting this out due to the highly controversial viewpoints). What I know I do need is support in developing self-compassion and the ability to tolerate my painful emotions. My life has been filled with trauma and loss and I just need a place where my honesty, authenticity, and need for support will be treated with relative sensitivity. I know that AA'ers have a way of explaining the ego deflation, powerless piece that makes sense if you are willing to grasp it. I, however, find this too big of a hurdle to overcome since I have a history of being indoctrinated with shame-inducing words meant to "help" me. I know there are some good people in AA and good AA meetings out there but I want to try a different approach. Thanks for reading. Any ideas?
I am wondering where I fit in. I am a very spiritual person - not in the organized religion sense at all - but more Eastern philosophies, mindfulness, etc. I want to incorporate a sense of Higher Being (even if I chose to call it Higher Self/One Consciousness) into my recovery. I am also an avid fan of psychology. AA is definitely not the place for me. I totally support those who have found it helpful, but I am not willing to go back. I have tried it and felt out of place and emotionally worse by the time I left. What kills me the most is the emphasis in AA on ego deflation - since my ego is already in the gutter. I believe there is a big difference between honestly sharing difficult emotions and "being on the pity pot". I don't feel comfortable calling myself a drunk or listening to "war stories" (and I don't feel it is because I am not "humble" enough). I don't totally believe in the powerlessness aspect or necessarily the medical model (I am still sorting this out due to the highly controversial viewpoints). What I know I do need is support in developing self-compassion and the ability to tolerate my painful emotions. My life has been filled with trauma and loss and I just need a place where my honesty, authenticity, and need for support will be treated with relative sensitivity. I know that AA'ers have a way of explaining the ego deflation, powerless piece that makes sense if you are willing to grasp it. I, however, find this too big of a hurdle to overcome since I have a history of being indoctrinated with shame-inducing words meant to "help" me. I know there are some good people in AA and good AA meetings out there but I want to try a different approach. Thanks for reading. Any ideas?
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Mukti3 
Hello -
AA is definitely not the place for me. I totally support those who have found it helpful, but I am not willing to go back. I have tried it and felt out of place and emotionally worse by the time I left.
AA is definitely not the place for me. I totally support those who have found it helpful, but I am not willing to go back. I have tried it and felt out of place and emotionally worse by the time I left.
IMO the 12 steps work better when we refrain from defining our Higher Power. Kind of like the Taoist saying:
"The Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao".
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Originally Posted by Boleo
If you are looking for zero AA talk, try the Secular forum. This forum is more for those who believe the 12 steps can be useful even for agnostics and less than hard-core atheists.
IMO the 12 steps work better when we refrain from defining our Higher Power. Kind of like the Taoist saying:
"The Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao".
IMO the 12 steps work better when we refrain from defining our Higher Power. Kind of like the Taoist saying:
"The Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao".
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Lakeside, Ca
Posts: 10,208
Originally Posted by Mukti3
I just need a place where my honesty, authenticity, and need for support will be treated with relative sensitivity.
from what I have seen regarding this site
I think that you have found it right here
I think that you have found it right here
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: South USA
Posts: 61
I think the big book has a lot of good information apart from ego deflation. Also, following the steps with a sponsor is just a suggestion. You might find strength and make friends with sober ppl just attending but not acting if that makes sense. I know one guy who sits in the back and never shares; he has 8 yrs clean. I totally get where you're re coming from bc I have enough mental issues without breaking myself down. But I relapsed after 4 years when I tried to get clean through my own spiritual program.
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
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to SR Mukti3
Originally Posted by Mukti
I am wondering where I fit in. I am a very spiritual person - not in the organized religion sense at all - but more Eastern philosophies, mindfulness, etc. I want to incorporate a sense of Higher Being (even if I chose to call it Higher Self/One Consciousness) into my recovery.
Ok with AA off the table
.Maybe
CBT and DBT (DBT Instant Mindfulness) are two websites of instruction that may provide something you can incorporate into your life.
Originally Posted by Mukti
I particularly like the idea of one day at a time and the slogan live and let live.
I also like ODAAT or moment at a time and see below (LALL) as principles to live by.
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
Very good post, and a discussion of this can probably benefit a lot of people. I couldn't believe anyone could suggest that my problem was ego: How could anyone who felt as degraded and downtrodden as I have an ego problem? And how dare they suggest that the reason people in my life kept letting me down was because I led with my ego? Or who did they think they were to imply that my unrelenting pain was a function of ego??? They didn't understand, I was sure. I was different...special, you know. 
I later realized that I didn't understand ego: I used to think it mean an elevated sense of self, or too-high self-esteem. With time I came to see it as my sense of self, either too grand or too small---but too much of it, nonetheless. It helped when I learned about humility, the antidote to ego---that it was not the same as humiliation. I learned that humility did not mean thinking less of myself; rather it meant thinking of myself less. It meant knowing my assets and my liabilities, but being overwhelmed my neither. I found that my ego was just as inflated when I wallowed in the depths of despair and self-pity as when I thought I was untouchable.
My challenge is this: Being right-sized. When I think the rules don't apply to me, when I demand my will be done instead of letting go, my ego is too big. When my feelings are hurt because someone didn't love me back, I can typically find that I needed more, more, more, and I had ignored the clues that told it wasn't right.
I'm not trying to convert you to AA. It worked for me, but I stopped going to meetings a few years ago. Of course, I've also known people who are happily, healthily sober through other means. I just wanted to share what might be another way of looking at things.
I later realized that I didn't understand ego: I used to think it mean an elevated sense of self, or too-high self-esteem. With time I came to see it as my sense of self, either too grand or too small---but too much of it, nonetheless. It helped when I learned about humility, the antidote to ego---that it was not the same as humiliation. I learned that humility did not mean thinking less of myself; rather it meant thinking of myself less. It meant knowing my assets and my liabilities, but being overwhelmed my neither. I found that my ego was just as inflated when I wallowed in the depths of despair and self-pity as when I thought I was untouchable.
My challenge is this: Being right-sized. When I think the rules don't apply to me, when I demand my will be done instead of letting go, my ego is too big. When my feelings are hurt because someone didn't love me back, I can typically find that I needed more, more, more, and I had ignored the clues that told it wasn't right.
I'm not trying to convert you to AA. It worked for me, but I stopped going to meetings a few years ago. Of course, I've also known people who are happily, healthily sober through other means. I just wanted to share what might be another way of looking at things.
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Just as we are all alike in some ways, we are all also different. Sometimes that difference is just due to a different perspective. Yet this in itself points to a difference. There are people in AA who seek to put everyone in the same box and I, like the OP, have a problem with this. I think murril did a fine job of gently pointing out that there are times when the difference may just be in viewpoint. This may or may not be the case for the OP, but it’s worth considering.
What you might find helpful Mukti3 is to consider the idea that these big ego types, that seem to push their viewpoint onto you, may also have an ego that is ”in the gutter”, but they compensate for it in a completely different way (by overcompensating).
My advice would be to find support wherever you can, and wherever you can make use of it. If that’s not in AA that’s no big deal.
What you might find helpful Mukti3 is to consider the idea that these big ego types, that seem to push their viewpoint onto you, may also have an ego that is ”in the gutter”, but they compensate for it in a completely different way (by overcompensating).
My advice would be to find support wherever you can, and wherever you can make use of it. If that’s not in AA that’s no big deal.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
Originally Posted by fini
IMO the 12 steps work better when we refrain from defining our Higher Power.
Boleo,
can you expand a bit on why you see that as being more helpful?
Boleo,
can you expand a bit on why you see that as being more helpful?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Posts: 24
Yes, I understand the emphasis on being "right-sized" and the true meaning of the concept of ego as it is meant to be understood in AA. It is an excellent concept in principle, but IMO can be misused by some folks and, at least in my experience, this misuse by some has had a very deleterious effect on me.
For example, when one has experienced many losses as I have (recent deaths of family members), it is natural and necessary to grieve in order to heal. I have found that there is a level of intolerance by many in AA and confusion between "wallowing in the pain" and experiencing the normal grieving process. BTW, I also firmly believe ALL types emotional pain - not just loss- must be experienced and expressed in order to process and let go of them. Sometimes this means undergoing a lengthy period of emotional distress until we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes meeting life on life's terms is terribly painful.
I can find nothing in the Big Book that specifically advises against full expression of emotion (unless I am missing something). Yet, time and again, I hear the intolerance of "negative" emotions and the advisement that to truly "work the program" one must think about oneself less - focus on the "solution rather than the problem". Obviously, this worked for the founders and to date, many others, I have no doubt. For me, however, I have found there is no way out but through. The Buddha reminds us that life is suffering. We cannot stop the waves but with the Grace of God we can learn to surf them.
It may be difficult for some to understand but "spiritually bypassing" emotional pain by too quickly moving past them is a sure set up for later backlash (perhaps in the form of relapse) and, in my case, only dredges up old, dangerous, dysfunctional internalizations from my family of origin that threaten my sobriety.
I have never been a "woe is me" kind of person who drinks because of I feel justified in doing so. If anything, until recently I have suffered stoically in silence. Alcohol has always been exclusively a way for me to self-medicate - a well-meaning but misinformed way to try to lessen the pain.
I do not feel that I must abandon myself (by denying ANY of my emotions) or moving quickly to dismiss them because they are large. This too shall pass but the timing is not always in my control as much as I would like it to be. Perhaps I have been too "therapized" for AA but I am not in any way "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
The problem that I have with AA is not in the 12-steps but in the "one -size fits all" approach and the way in which those steps are interpreted and applied by some in the program. At this juncture in my recovery, I cannot afford to subject myself to the well-meaning but unwanted advice in meetings that actually jeopardizes my recovery. I continued to read literature and apply AA concepts that work for me and I admire all who have found AA the solution.
For example, when one has experienced many losses as I have (recent deaths of family members), it is natural and necessary to grieve in order to heal. I have found that there is a level of intolerance by many in AA and confusion between "wallowing in the pain" and experiencing the normal grieving process. BTW, I also firmly believe ALL types emotional pain - not just loss- must be experienced and expressed in order to process and let go of them. Sometimes this means undergoing a lengthy period of emotional distress until we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes meeting life on life's terms is terribly painful.
I can find nothing in the Big Book that specifically advises against full expression of emotion (unless I am missing something). Yet, time and again, I hear the intolerance of "negative" emotions and the advisement that to truly "work the program" one must think about oneself less - focus on the "solution rather than the problem". Obviously, this worked for the founders and to date, many others, I have no doubt. For me, however, I have found there is no way out but through. The Buddha reminds us that life is suffering. We cannot stop the waves but with the Grace of God we can learn to surf them.
It may be difficult for some to understand but "spiritually bypassing" emotional pain by too quickly moving past them is a sure set up for later backlash (perhaps in the form of relapse) and, in my case, only dredges up old, dangerous, dysfunctional internalizations from my family of origin that threaten my sobriety.
I have never been a "woe is me" kind of person who drinks because of I feel justified in doing so. If anything, until recently I have suffered stoically in silence. Alcohol has always been exclusively a way for me to self-medicate - a well-meaning but misinformed way to try to lessen the pain.
I do not feel that I must abandon myself (by denying ANY of my emotions) or moving quickly to dismiss them because they are large. This too shall pass but the timing is not always in my control as much as I would like it to be. Perhaps I have been too "therapized" for AA but I am not in any way "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
The problem that I have with AA is not in the 12-steps but in the "one -size fits all" approach and the way in which those steps are interpreted and applied by some in the program. At this juncture in my recovery, I cannot afford to subject myself to the well-meaning but unwanted advice in meetings that actually jeopardizes my recovery. I continued to read literature and apply AA concepts that work for me and I admire all who have found AA the solution.
Guest
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
Great thread, and I relate very much to the OP's experiences mentioned, and perhaps the "therapized" background, the trauma/loss, etc... and especially this statement: "I have a history of being indoctrinated with shame-inducing words meant to "help" me"
I wanted to mention a book I've been reading by Marya Hornbacher entitled Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power. It is for people who are trying to determine their own spiritual approach, using the Steps even, to recovery. It's resonating with me greatly.
I am definitely on the fringes of the AA program and fellowship at this point... and never embraced AA before or thought I'd ever want to. I started out in SMART, then WFS, and then finally group therapy, and then AA. I got to Step 4 with a sponsor and realized there were some things just not clicking into place, though I tried my best to deal with the language in AA, trying to reframe things from my own experience and perspective... trying to overlook the religiosity and such... so I've ended up postponing the sponsored step work, while reading through this book to get a better grasp of the spirituality of the Steps and how I can actually incorporate them.
I'm also just getting into Vipassana style meditation. And I hope to use this as one of my mainstays in recovery. Eventually want to meditate under one of the masters (or whatever they call themselves, lol!) and maybe go to some silent meditation retreats.
I'd love to be able to use meditation along with the Steps, and my individual therapy, group therapy... and of course, SR. And probably let go of AA fellowship, unless I think there's a really good reason to back there.
I wanted to mention a book I've been reading by Marya Hornbacher entitled Waiting: A Nonbeliever's Higher Power. It is for people who are trying to determine their own spiritual approach, using the Steps even, to recovery. It's resonating with me greatly.
I am definitely on the fringes of the AA program and fellowship at this point... and never embraced AA before or thought I'd ever want to. I started out in SMART, then WFS, and then finally group therapy, and then AA. I got to Step 4 with a sponsor and realized there were some things just not clicking into place, though I tried my best to deal with the language in AA, trying to reframe things from my own experience and perspective... trying to overlook the religiosity and such... so I've ended up postponing the sponsored step work, while reading through this book to get a better grasp of the spirituality of the Steps and how I can actually incorporate them.
I'm also just getting into Vipassana style meditation. And I hope to use this as one of my mainstays in recovery. Eventually want to meditate under one of the masters (or whatever they call themselves, lol!) and maybe go to some silent meditation retreats.
I'd love to be able to use meditation along with the Steps, and my individual therapy, group therapy... and of course, SR. And probably let go of AA fellowship, unless I think there's a really good reason to back there.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,962
Originally Posted by Muki3
I have no doubt. For me, however, I have found there is no way out but through. The Buddha reminds us that life is suffering. We cannot stop the waves but with the Grace of God we can learn to surf them.
Muki, you mentioned. I think. about combining some from AA, Buddhism, maybe some psychological therapy coping skills to build a new foundation to grow from? If so, would I be to bold to ask what are your thoughts about this? If so, I understand...I'm just interested
.
Originally Posted by Boleo
IMO the 12 steps work better when we refrain from defining our Higher Power. Kind of like the Taoist saying:
"The Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao".
"The Tao that can be talked about is not the true Tao".
Originally Posted by murrill
I agree with Boleo. I the early days I was desperate for a very defined picture of HP. It never came, and today understand why. It would have been rigid and dogmatic--the very thing I railed against. The only point of reference I would have would be a human one, and I think I would end up with a picture of a chastising, judgmental human. Instead I simply release myself into an energy that is not defined as good or bad--and does not define me as such, either.
Other than that, I like the path AA member Jimmy B took: there is good within each of us. I take that as releasing or "letting go" of all the things (hinderances) that keep me from tapping into my inter good. Buddhist have an expression "original mind" that hints of my unspeakable HP (Higher Potential). Yes!!!, dissolve the ego, connect with the community around, be of service, no dogma nor rigidness, just spread some love around. Very K.I.S.S.
.Thank you both Murrill and Boleo for your contributions.
I think we see the same thing, experience the same effects and have been changed for the better because of "it". Like light, if one wants to observe it as a particle, it behaves as a particle. Observer light as a wave, yep its a wave. It is also simultaneity both! With matter that can change its behavior depending how you look at it...hummm. Along with a precptional foundation of our reality that can pop in and out of existence, pass information from one particle to another faster than light, and that whole two in one act. Looking to hard into the whole shebang might make one dizzy and disorientated
.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Eastern U.S.
Posts: 24
Thanks SoberJennie and Zen Cat for your great posts.
Jennie, thank you for the book suggestion. I will check it out.
For me my Higher Power is One Consciousness/Love as I define it. For whatever reason, I can use the traditional language i.e. God to refer to this without much trouble (unless someone starts talking in the language of organized religion and then it kills it for me!). After a difficult surgery in 2012 I had a spiritual awakening of sorts in which my egoic conditioning for the most part temporarily disappeared. It was if I was able to fully "know" that it is all good even if things were dark and the world came more alive for me. This glimpse of true peace and serenity was truly a gift and has ultimately led me to want to be substance free. Since I am very much into Theravadan Buddhism/Insight i.e. Vispassana meditation I use this language to understand and cope.
Jennie, you might want to check out the IMS (Insight Meditation Society) website. It was founded by some of the greats - Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, etc. Also, my all time favorite is a Zen practitioner who has some great things to say about recovery/change/letting go of egoic conditioning - her name is Cheri Huber and you can find her online.
Zencat, I don't have any particular way of blending the Buddhism/12-step/therapy approaches. I am just stumbling my way through like everybody else. I have done a lot of therapy, however, and I am a voracious reader of all things psychological. Some concepts that I find particularly helpful are Mindful Self Compassion (Germer), use of CBT and, recently, the field of Interpersonal Neurobiology (IPNB) which involves neuroplasticity (i.e. the idea that brain CAN be healed) and that this healing can take place both in relation with supportive others and on our own if we change our approach to our difficulties. I love IPNB the most as it is so hopeful and non dogmatic. Rick Hanson takes about "taking in the good" as an effective method of healing.
Anyway, hope it is o.k. to share info to outside sources like this. Pardon me I not - I am still learning the ropes here at SR.
Jennie, thank you for the book suggestion. I will check it out.
For me my Higher Power is One Consciousness/Love as I define it. For whatever reason, I can use the traditional language i.e. God to refer to this without much trouble (unless someone starts talking in the language of organized religion and then it kills it for me!). After a difficult surgery in 2012 I had a spiritual awakening of sorts in which my egoic conditioning for the most part temporarily disappeared. It was if I was able to fully "know" that it is all good even if things were dark and the world came more alive for me. This glimpse of true peace and serenity was truly a gift and has ultimately led me to want to be substance free. Since I am very much into Theravadan Buddhism/Insight i.e. Vispassana meditation I use this language to understand and cope.
Jennie, you might want to check out the IMS (Insight Meditation Society) website. It was founded by some of the greats - Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzberg, etc. Also, my all time favorite is a Zen practitioner who has some great things to say about recovery/change/letting go of egoic conditioning - her name is Cheri Huber and you can find her online.
Zencat, I don't have any particular way of blending the Buddhism/12-step/therapy approaches. I am just stumbling my way through like everybody else. I have done a lot of therapy, however, and I am a voracious reader of all things psychological. Some concepts that I find particularly helpful are Mindful Self Compassion (Germer), use of CBT and, recently, the field of Interpersonal Neurobiology (IPNB) which involves neuroplasticity (i.e. the idea that brain CAN be healed) and that this healing can take place both in relation with supportive others and on our own if we change our approach to our difficulties. I love IPNB the most as it is so hopeful and non dogmatic. Rick Hanson takes about "taking in the good" as an effective method of healing.
Anyway, hope it is o.k. to share info to outside sources like this. Pardon me I not - I am still learning the ropes here at SR.
Night owl
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Orion spur of the Milky Way galaxy
Posts: 2,050
Originally Posted by Mukti3
Yes, I understand the emphasis on being "right-sized" and the true meaning of the concept of ego as it is meant to be understood in AA. It is an excellent concept in principle, but IMO can be misused by some folks and, at least in my experience, this misuse by some has had a very deleterious effect on me.
For example, when one has experienced many losses as I have (recent deaths of family members), it is natural and necessary to grieve in order to heal. I have found that there is a level of intolerance by many in AA and confusion between "wallowing in the pain" and experiencing the normal grieving process. BTW, I also firmly believe ALL types emotional pain - not just loss- must be experienced and expressed in order to process and let go of them. Sometimes this means undergoing a lengthy period of emotional distress until we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes meeting life on life's terms is terribly painful.
I can find nothing in the Big Book that specifically advises against full expression of emotion (unless I am missing something). Yet, time and again, I hear the intolerance of "negative" emotions and the advisement that to truly "work the program" one must think about oneself less - focus on the "solution rather than the problem". Obviously, this worked for the founders and to date, many others, I have no doubt. For me, however, I have found there is no way out but through. The Buddha reminds us that life is suffering. We cannot stop the waves but with the Grace of God we can learn to surf them.
It may be difficult for some to understand but "spiritually bypassing" emotional pain by too quickly moving past them is a sure set up for later backlash (perhaps in the form of relapse) and, in my case, only dredges up old, dangerous, dysfunctional internalizations from my family of origin that threaten my sobriety.
I have never been a "woe is me" kind of person who drinks because of I feel justified in doing so. If anything, until recently I have suffered stoically in silence. Alcohol has always been exclusively a way for me to self-medicate - a well-meaning but misinformed way to try to lessen the pain.
I do not feel that I must abandon myself (by denying ANY of my emotions) or moving quickly to dismiss them because they are large. This too shall pass but the timing is not always in my control as much as I would like it to be. Perhaps I have been too "therapized" for AA but I am not in any way "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
The problem that I have with AA is not in the 12-steps but in the "one -size fits all" approach and the way in which those steps are interpreted and applied by some in the program. At this juncture in my recovery, I cannot afford to subject myself to the well-meaning but unwanted advice in meetings that actually jeopardizes my recovery. I continued to read literature and apply AA concepts that work for me and I admire all who have found AA the solution.
For example, when one has experienced many losses as I have (recent deaths of family members), it is natural and necessary to grieve in order to heal. I have found that there is a level of intolerance by many in AA and confusion between "wallowing in the pain" and experiencing the normal grieving process. BTW, I also firmly believe ALL types emotional pain - not just loss- must be experienced and expressed in order to process and let go of them. Sometimes this means undergoing a lengthy period of emotional distress until we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes meeting life on life's terms is terribly painful.
I can find nothing in the Big Book that specifically advises against full expression of emotion (unless I am missing something). Yet, time and again, I hear the intolerance of "negative" emotions and the advisement that to truly "work the program" one must think about oneself less - focus on the "solution rather than the problem". Obviously, this worked for the founders and to date, many others, I have no doubt. For me, however, I have found there is no way out but through. The Buddha reminds us that life is suffering. We cannot stop the waves but with the Grace of God we can learn to surf them.
It may be difficult for some to understand but "spiritually bypassing" emotional pain by too quickly moving past them is a sure set up for later backlash (perhaps in the form of relapse) and, in my case, only dredges up old, dangerous, dysfunctional internalizations from my family of origin that threaten my sobriety.
I have never been a "woe is me" kind of person who drinks because of I feel justified in doing so. If anything, until recently I have suffered stoically in silence. Alcohol has always been exclusively a way for me to self-medicate - a well-meaning but misinformed way to try to lessen the pain.
I do not feel that I must abandon myself (by denying ANY of my emotions) or moving quickly to dismiss them because they are large. This too shall pass but the timing is not always in my control as much as I would like it to be. Perhaps I have been too "therapized" for AA but I am not in any way "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
The problem that I have with AA is not in the 12-steps but in the "one -size fits all" approach and the way in which those steps are interpreted and applied by some in the program. At this juncture in my recovery, I cannot afford to subject myself to the well-meaning but unwanted advice in meetings that actually jeopardizes my recovery. I continued to read literature and apply AA concepts that work for me and I admire all who have found AA the solution.
I really felt moved to comment because I agree so wholeheartedly with so much of what you say here. I sometimes feel very alone because I am a very strong believer in having and honoring one's feelings. It has been in trying to deny, stuff and self-medicate myself and my feelings that I have caused myself so much pain.
It is not easy to feel and go through feelings. I often want to skip to the end. But I know I cannot get to the end without going through the middle, it is the going through the process that helps create the end, if that makes sense.
I am always encouraging people to allow themselves to have their feelings fully. Not to abuse themselves or others with them, not to have their feelings all over others but to experience them as fully as possible. To me that is not wallowing but learning acceptance and how to cope. A good example is grieving which is highly frowned upon our culture. We are told "to get over it" whatever it is, even deaths, abuse, trauma and so on.
I think having emotions, feeling, is a hallmark of being alive, of being fully human. If we weren't meant to feel, then why are we such emotional beings? I hope this all makes sense. It just feels so good to encounter someone saying what I so often find myself saying.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
I believe whole-heartedly in the value of feeling, especially in processing grief. It is cathartic and liberating. During my drinking years I was drowning in pain, and I kept inflicting more: In other words, I drank because I drank because I drank. I found AA via treatment, and it was in treatment that I was invited to express my feelings. I purged and purged, yet I continued to hold onto pain. At some point I found that it was up to me to let go, and sometimes I had to acknowledge that I was no longer grieving what I thought I was grieving.
I was terribly offended when I was in a period of clinical depression, and there were some in AA who said "just snap out of it." (Of course, there were also those outside of AA who said the same.) In any event, I sought support from people who knew what I was going through. Still, there was value in what the "just snap out of it" gang said: No, I couldn't just shake it off, but I could keep moving. I did not have to be swallowed by depression, and those people helped to understand that I could work through it by changing how I looked at things.
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross (psychiatrist whose life work was about death & dying) said that in defining death we face the more ultimate question of the meaning of life. It was true, for me anyway, and at some juncture I had to admit that I was no longer grieving the loss of someone; I grieved my own life not lived. It has been a few 24 hours for me, but I still have to ask myself to look at what refusing to move on or what purpose not letting go has for me.
I was fortunate to have surrounded myself with many supportive and patient AA people, but I think the heart of my healing occurred outside of the meetings. It was in work with my sponsor or at "meetings after the meetings." AA is not therapy, and it is not the answer to everything. It has given me a foundation to address some other issues, though. It is normal to have feelings; it is healthy to express them. In my own life I can now admit that I have held people hostage with my drama and my pain. There is a balance.
I was terribly offended when I was in a period of clinical depression, and there were some in AA who said "just snap out of it." (Of course, there were also those outside of AA who said the same.) In any event, I sought support from people who knew what I was going through. Still, there was value in what the "just snap out of it" gang said: No, I couldn't just shake it off, but I could keep moving. I did not have to be swallowed by depression, and those people helped to understand that I could work through it by changing how I looked at things.
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross (psychiatrist whose life work was about death & dying) said that in defining death we face the more ultimate question of the meaning of life. It was true, for me anyway, and at some juncture I had to admit that I was no longer grieving the loss of someone; I grieved my own life not lived. It has been a few 24 hours for me, but I still have to ask myself to look at what refusing to move on or what purpose not letting go has for me.
I was fortunate to have surrounded myself with many supportive and patient AA people, but I think the heart of my healing occurred outside of the meetings. It was in work with my sponsor or at "meetings after the meetings." AA is not therapy, and it is not the answer to everything. It has given me a foundation to address some other issues, though. It is normal to have feelings; it is healthy to express them. In my own life I can now admit that I have held people hostage with my drama and my pain. There is a balance.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by fini
IMO the 12 steps work better when we refrain from defining our Higher Power.
Boleo,
can you expand a bit on why you see that as being more helpful?
Boleo,
can you expand a bit on why you see that as being more helpful?
I now understand why the Hindu's have over over 300 names for God. It is not that they believe in 300 different Gods, they simply believe that any name for God serves as a temporary pointer to the one ultimate Godhead that is beyond definition. One's concept of God should change many times during the course of one's lifetime.
They teach their children to start out with faith in a simple God and change Gods every few years as their understanding grows. Some of the names for God are not safe for neophytes to contemplate without considerable education and experience.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Eastern U.S.
Posts: 24
"I found AA via treatment, and it was in treatment that I was invited to express my feelings. I purged and purged, yet I continued to hold onto pain. At some point I found that it was up to me to let go, and sometimes I had to acknowledge that I was no longer grieving what I thought I was grieving."
Merrill, I'm sorry that you did not find complete emotional expression ultimately relieving to you. It sounds like you somehow got stuck in the process. I am also sorry that whatever you found you were truly grieving in the end was not helpful for you to go on feeling.
For me, however, brutal honesty with myself means I must allow myself to fully grieve everything that I need to. With kind, compassionate assistance from my therapist, supportive others, and the grace of my HP, I hope to move through it and come out the other side. Anything less than complete self-compassion (note I am not meaning the traditional understanding of self-pity - a big difference) will prove deadly for me. There is a great article on the difference between self-pity and healthy "self sorrowing" by therapist Pete Walker Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapy in which he says:
" Iam often saddened when I hear adult children parrot the "conventional wisdom" that it is bad to feel sorry for yourself. This so-called wisdom shames people out of normal, healthy, self-pity. Everyone needs to occasionally feel sorry for themselves. Tears for the self are some of the most potently healing experiences of recovery. Self-pity, in balance and moderation, is extremely healing. Recovery, in fact, is often very limited until there are profound experiences of feeling sorry for the self. Self-pity in balanced moderation is the miraculously releasing gift of "self-sorrowing".
Since many folks who struggle with substance use are also adult children (like me) this fits for me.
I am in no way trying to be disrespect to ideas in AA that work for folks. I just want to present an alternative way of looking at things for my own sake and any others who may find it helpful. Live and Let Live works for me.
Merrill, I'm sorry that you did not find complete emotional expression ultimately relieving to you. It sounds like you somehow got stuck in the process. I am also sorry that whatever you found you were truly grieving in the end was not helpful for you to go on feeling.
For me, however, brutal honesty with myself means I must allow myself to fully grieve everything that I need to. With kind, compassionate assistance from my therapist, supportive others, and the grace of my HP, I hope to move through it and come out the other side. Anything less than complete self-compassion (note I am not meaning the traditional understanding of self-pity - a big difference) will prove deadly for me. There is a great article on the difference between self-pity and healthy "self sorrowing" by therapist Pete Walker Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapy in which he says:
" Iam often saddened when I hear adult children parrot the "conventional wisdom" that it is bad to feel sorry for yourself. This so-called wisdom shames people out of normal, healthy, self-pity. Everyone needs to occasionally feel sorry for themselves. Tears for the self are some of the most potently healing experiences of recovery. Self-pity, in balance and moderation, is extremely healing. Recovery, in fact, is often very limited until there are profound experiences of feeling sorry for the self. Self-pity in balanced moderation is the miraculously releasing gift of "self-sorrowing".
Since many folks who struggle with substance use are also adult children (like me) this fits for me.
I am in no way trying to be disrespect to ideas in AA that work for folks. I just want to present an alternative way of looking at things for my own sake and any others who may find it helpful. Live and Let Live works for me.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 343
Originally Posted by Mukti3
"I found AA via treatment, and it was in treatment that I was invited to express my feelings. I purged and purged, yet I continued to hold onto pain. At some point I found that it was up to me to let go, and sometimes I had to acknowledge that I was no longer grieving what I thought I was grieving."
Merrill, I'm sorry that you did not find complete emotional expression ultimately relieving to you. It sounds like you somehow got stuck in the process. I am also sorry that whatever you found you were truly grieving in the end was not helpful for you to go on feeling.
For me, however, brutal honesty with myself means I must allow myself to fully grieve everything that I need to. With kind, compassionate assistance from my therapist, supportive others, and the grace of my HP, I hope to move through it and come out the other side. Anything less than complete self-compassion (note I am not meaning the traditional understanding of self-pity - a big difference) will prove deadly for me. There is a great article on the difference between self-pity and healthy "self sorrowing" by therapist Pete Walker Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapy in which he says:
" Iam often saddened when I hear adult children parrot the "conventional wisdom" that it is bad to feel sorry for yourself. This so-called wisdom shames people out of normal, healthy, self-pity. Everyone needs to occasionally feel sorry for themselves. Tears for the self are some of the most potently healing experiences of recovery. Self-pity, in balance and moderation, is extremely healing. Recovery, in fact, is often very limited until there are profound experiences of feeling sorry for the self. Self-pity in balanced moderation is the miraculously releasing gift of "self-sorrowing".
Since many folks who struggle with substance use are also adult children (like me) this fits for me.
I am in no way trying to be disrespect to ideas in AA that work for folks. I just want to present an alternative way of looking at things for my own sake and any others who may find it helpful. Live and Let Live works for me.
Merrill, I'm sorry that you did not find complete emotional expression ultimately relieving to you. It sounds like you somehow got stuck in the process. I am also sorry that whatever you found you were truly grieving in the end was not helpful for you to go on feeling.
For me, however, brutal honesty with myself means I must allow myself to fully grieve everything that I need to. With kind, compassionate assistance from my therapist, supportive others, and the grace of my HP, I hope to move through it and come out the other side. Anything less than complete self-compassion (note I am not meaning the traditional understanding of self-pity - a big difference) will prove deadly for me. There is a great article on the difference between self-pity and healthy "self sorrowing" by therapist Pete Walker Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapy in which he says:
" Iam often saddened when I hear adult children parrot the "conventional wisdom" that it is bad to feel sorry for yourself. This so-called wisdom shames people out of normal, healthy, self-pity. Everyone needs to occasionally feel sorry for themselves. Tears for the self are some of the most potently healing experiences of recovery. Self-pity, in balance and moderation, is extremely healing. Recovery, in fact, is often very limited until there are profound experiences of feeling sorry for the self. Self-pity in balanced moderation is the miraculously releasing gift of "self-sorrowing".
Since many folks who struggle with substance use are also adult children (like me) this fits for me.
I am in no way trying to be disrespect to ideas in AA that work for folks. I just want to present an alternative way of looking at things for my own sake and any others who may find it helpful. Live and Let Live works for me.
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