Terminally Unique

I'll just note that the book is self-contained. While RR offers other materials, such as video instruction for those who prefer to learn by watching TV instead of reading, you can learn AVRT from the book alone. I myself have other materials, notably past issues of the Journal of Rational Recovery, but that is not strictly necessary.

There were some questions on this thread about AVRT and other issues, or causes of addiction; this excerpt should clarify how AVRT differs from traditional treatment in that respect.

soberlicious

I would think the local library has the trimpey book or any other book one is looking for. If they don't have it at your local branch they can almost always find it for you and get it sent to your branch.

Morning Glory

http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/d...bcrup_0300.pdf

After reading many posts on the forums for years I've seen how some use alcohol and drugs to cope or self medicate underlying mental health issues. It also seems that the issues don't show up until the substance abuse ends.

If abstinence is the goal of RR what do you suggest when a newly sober person finds themselves in an unbearable emotional or mental state? I would hate to see that labeled as the "Beast" when it is truly a mental disorder (Bi-Polar, Depression, PTSD, etc...)

How would they know the difference between normal withdrawal and mental health issues in order to distinguish between dealing with the "Beast" or getting mental health treatment.

Terminally Unique

I would recommend that they see someone qualified to deal with such things. There are a wide variety of mental health services available from legitimate sources, though almost all require abstinence in order to work. Anyone who has ever continued to drink while on anti-depressants or other psychiatric meds knows that they won't work very well if you do. RR does not oppose psychiatric medication or mental health services, or even medically supervised detox. This is mentioned in the book.

The Beast is simply the desire to intoxicate. Some disturbances, such as depression, are common and to be expected early on, but if they do not lift, there could be something else causing them. Standard psychiatric protocol usually requires 90 days of abstinence before a proper diagnosis distinct from withdrawal can be made, but one can certainly consult with a psychiatrist before that time. If in doubt, consult with a mental health professional.

esyla

i have not read this whole thread, i havent had the time yet, but i started it.. i have a question. sorry if it's already been mentioned!

if this is like dissociating from alcoholism, couldn't that cause an issue in people with other psychiatric issues? for example, i have borderline personality disorder. one of the characteristics has to do with dissociating. i guess i'm just curious about how it would work trying to balance the addiction "stuff" with other "stuff."

Terminally Unique

In psychiatry, dissociation is defined as "disruption of the usually integrated functions of consciousness, memory, identity, or perception of the environment." When I use the word "dissociative" to describe AVRT, I am not using it in the strictly clinical sense, as a psychologist would, but in the traditional sense, as in separating, or distancing, from addictive desire.

The meanings are different depending on the context, and dissociation, as used in the clinical sense, is vastly different from the traditional sense. If the term causes you confusion, though, you don't need to think of it as such. As I used it, it does not mean what it would in the context of BPD.

wpainterw

Originally Posted by Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction, Pages 42-43

WHAT AVRT IS NOT

AVRT is not a form of addiction treatment; it is an attractive alternative to addiction treatment. Rational Recovery is unlike any other recovery book because it gives addicted people clear, direct instructions that if followed will result in lifetime abstinence. Addiction treatment is an indirect approach that assumes that your drinking or drug use is a symptom of some hidden cause. The treatment intends to correct or remove the cause following which you inexplicably become sober.

AVRT is not therapy or counseling, but it makes those services possible, if you need them. Whatever problems you have are your own, and AVRT makes no attempt to make you a happier, better-adjusted, more successful, or more self-accepting person. Those are your responsibilities, also. The outcome of AVRT, however, is nearly always improvement in all areas of life. After all, one is burdened by the yoke of addiction...

AVRT is not a design for living nor a plan for self-improvement; it is a method to achieve secure abstinence and that is all it is.


Terminal: I found this reply of yours useful and provocative. AVRT is, then, a way to stop drinking, nothing more. But once the drinking has stopped a person may have to deal with mental health issues, such as depression, bi-polar etc. The way to do that is to seek the help of a qualified psychiatrist or counselor. But entirely aside from mental health issues, I submit that there are likely to be what may be broadly called maturity issues, resulting from the likelihood that, during the years of addiction, a person may have been too preoccupied with drinking to focus on the important questions of "Who am I; what do I really want? How can I be happy?" etc. Here there are many paths. Some turn to Buddhism; others to what might be called an enlightened and open minded agnosticism, some to some more conventional religion. There are likely to be many paths. Each person must find his/hers for a quest.
So what I am suggesting is that success with AVRT is only the beginning. It shuts off the drinking so the real business of maturing, for many years interrupted, can resume.

W.

Terminally Unique

This is part of what I like about AVRT. It does not place any pre-conditions, such as spiritual/religious conversions or self-improvement projects in order to quit, which might deter many people from trying. An atheist might object to having to rely on spirituality or religion, for example, and a devout Christian might object to the secular humanism inherent in RET/REBT.

It is entirely possible for either learn and apply AVRT, though. Once abstinent, they are each free to choose the path that works for them. It can be counseling, therapy, regular church attendance, reading, or, if they don't care for introspection and self-improvement, nothing at all. Either way, the key is that any burden of change, if desired, comes after quitting, not prior to it.

In the book, the author likens AVRT to a laser beam:

Runhappy

Firstly, thank you AVRT so much for starting this thread. I just got done with the book and my Big Plan started Sept 11. I am on the downhill part of withdrawals from opiates and I will never use again. I don't want to get deleted for posting this but for reference I would like to tell you that I went to rehab in 2001 and for 8 years worked a "program" for my addiction. However I always had trouble with the fact I did a Big Plan for cigarettes and that worked but felt compelled to comply with the steps for drugs. (didn't know I did a big plan for ciggarettes until I read Jacks book. But something in me always believed I could quit drugs the way I quit cigs. Make a decision of never again and just do it.

I am committed and doing fine. I love the AV techniques and recognize my Beast for sure!

There is one thing I am having difficulty with. The "don't count time" thing. I just thought 911 would be a cool date to quit. How do I forget about the time since last drug and date I quit? He (jack) really didn't address this topic and even to join this forum to read your posts I had to put my clean date in to become a member of sober recovery.

Terminally Unique

You don't need to forget per se, and with a date like that, you probably won't. If counting days makes you anxious, though, or increases relapse anxiety, then don't look at the calendar all the time. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

Just remember, the only time is now, as in "I never now drink/use." Since it is always now, and tomorrow will also be now when it comes, you never drink/use.

Simple, no? :-)

soberlicious

simple, yes.
it is always now...very buddhist

Runhappy

Thanks sober and AVRT for your replies.

AVRT thanks for the personal message with the links. I only had The book which i got at a bookstore when I was desperately searching for a step alternative or other opinions and advice. Sorry to reply here but the system said I hadn't posted enough yet to reply to your message.

soberlicious

Runhappy...I share a different opinion about counting time, clean dates, celebrations/acknowledgments,etc. than AVRT, but we are both right and you will be right too in whatever you decide. If this or anything else interferes with your ability to quit for good, then don't do it. If it doesn't...well then, have cake or not... lol

wpainterw

We are in complete agreement, Terminally! The first order of business is to quit drinking and AVRT seems like a great way to start, namely focus on doing something about the Beast and silencing the inner voices. If a person manages to quit drinking then there may be quite a lot of catch up to do, making up for all the time lost not maturing or realizing one's true self or whatever way you want to describe it. So now, sober, a person can set out upon a path and there may be many paths. So instead of saying "character defects" cause drinking and you need some help with those (and we're going to give it to you) one focusses instead on the inner Beast and the voices which respond to it. When we've taken care of that and when the drinking stops, then all other options (other than drinking and drugging) are on the table.

W.

Runhappy

I went to the RR website. I was cruising around in the bookstore for more material as I have finished The Cure. They have watches that instead of having the numerical times of day around the dial they all say "NOW".

That is so TRUE.

The only time we have is now.

I will not use now (forever)

I want to give a huge thank you to Jack Trimpey and all who support the AVRT way. It works and I'm almost detoxed after many failed attempts!

Terminally Unique

Quite refreshing after a stint in rehab, no? What you are feeling is not a pink cloud; it is your normal, authentic self coming back. Set your confidence level at 100%, recognize all self-doubt telling you that you will not succeed at staying clean as a product of the Addictive Voice itself, and you will succeed.

Runhappy

I went to inpatient rehab and stayed 9 months. Then sober living another 2 years. Worked an amazing program and was a cheerleader for step recovery. I was clean for 8 or 9 years off street drugs then got injured and was prescribed Vicodin. I couldn't work my program on is drug. According to what I had learned I was in a 2 year long relapse over which I was powerless.

But my Brian was yelling bulls**t, you can stop you have before you just don't want to.
I knew my brain was right and my program just felt all wrong. I went to a bookstore and cruised the shelves for an alternative opinion. I found two books. One is "The Cure" and the other is "Breaking Addiction a 7 step handbook for ending any addiction"

The books have different opinions as to the WHY of it. 7 step claims it's a feeling of hopelessness that leads to picking up while The Cure claims it is that we just want to get high. Pure and simple.

I believe the cure gets it right as far as i am concerned. Just wanted to get high. Although of course sometimes I felt helpless but bottom line I wanted the high. Both are very similar in terms of recognizing your feelings and voice before use.

I call my Beast "slick" and so far have been able to remain clean for 8 days. Most of detox is done but still a little tired and of course alot of beast activity! But in the past 2 days I just tell Slick NO NO NO when the thought of using comes and it works for me.

Good luck to all on AVRT. I really believe this is the end of my addiction.

Runhappy

Brain

Terminally Unique

All addicted people feel hopeless, and all addicted people feel depressed; that is part of being addicted. Addiction is a toxic state of hopelessness and depression, and the Beast will take full advantage of this. It will use it as a reason to convince you to continue getting high.

People think that problems cause addiction, and that they need to work on their problems in order to quit, but once you are addicted, you had better not waste any time in quitting, because those original problems no longer matter. Addicted people will drink for any reason, however, good or bad. They wouldn't be addicted if it were otherwise.

Life sucks? Drink to cope, says the AV.
Won the lottery? Drink to celebrate, says the AV.

Working on "underlying issues" instead of quitting is essentially a stall tactic, and the Beast loves wasting time getting around to quitting. Don't fall for it. Quit first, and then work on your problems, issues, etc.

Terminally Unique

I'll just note for clarity that in AVRT, your Beast (addictive desire) is not the cause of your addiction. The Addictive Voice, which is the expression of that desire, is the cause. The Beast is harmless if you don't listen to the Addictive Voice, since the Beast can't get what it wants (drugs/alcohol) without first using the AV to convince you to get it.

It is a subtle distinction, but important, because if you believe that the Beast (addictive desire) is the cause of your addiction, you may spend lots of effort trying to mitigate that desire instead of actually quitting. This is why self-improvement projects aimed at mitigating desire are often very tempting to addicted people. It allows them to delay quitting until things improve, and there is no guarantee that things will ever improve.