freethinking

Holy cr*p! That is weird!!

wpainterw

"Not everyone who drinks becomes addicted". This of course has been the focus of numerous studies and much speculation. I believe that there is some scientific evidence that there may be genetic factors, possible differences in brain structure or the way the brain responds to addictive substances. These differences may not only be true for the midbrain or primitive brain but also for those parts of the brain where consciousness resides and where, I assume, the addictive voice originates. Some people are just "different" than others. Fitzgerald said "The rich are different from you and me...They have more money." And so might it be said, "We alcoholics are different from non alcoholics. Maybe our brains are different. Also, we've got a thirsty, fun loving beast and an addictive voice which listens to the thirsty creature and invents all sorts of ways to help him out."

W.

Terminally Unique

To be honest, I don't know, but until medicine comes up with a way to kill it, I think that to waste time trying to find root causes for drinking instead of quitting is dangerous. More than a few have wasted years in psychotherapy trying to find the underlying issues that they thought were leading them to drink, with little success.

I have a good idea of why I thought alcohol was so nice at first, but over time, the original reason became largely irrelevant. Eventually, the addiction just fed on itself, and reasons did not matter anymore. I didn't even need a reason to drink, but I certainly needed one to stop.

My advice: quit first, and worry about issues and causes once securely abstinent.

soberlicious

There is no "instead" for me, AVRT. As you know, I quit drinking quite some time ago. For good. This is a question that I find thought provoking. Nothing more, nothing less.

I also don't think that pondering on something and inviting others to give responses is ever a waste of time. Certainly if one were preoccupied, it could become a problem for them. I just think that the fact that some have a beast and others don't is a very curious thing. Probably not something that can ever be definitively answered...but interesting to me nonetheless.

soberlicious

I happen to believe the original reasons are irrelevant when it comes to quitting, but in my case they are not completely irrelevant. Alcohol is not an issue for me anymore. However, I have engaged in other behaviors (again, not related to substances) that feed my lizard brain's desire for the high. Some have been healthy, others quite problematic. So I like to at least look into original reasons to make sure they are not manifesting in other ways.

freethinking

I'm not really referring to why you, I, or anyone else specifically drank (i.e. childhood trauma, etc). Instead, I was curious to know if the author of some of the books discussed in this thread ever touches on a general theory as to what causes some people to drink alcoholically and others not to (I know I have heard theories in psychology, and in another program I attended). I think it's a very natural curiosity, since my alcohol abuse has so severely and negatively effected my life. I mean all this time is spent explaining how the primitive brain talks to the higher brain, etc - so it's natural for one to ask why this happens in some and not others. I am not even saying I believe in the whole Lizard Brain theory, but am just curious if the founder of the theory supplies a belief in a cause for this. Food for thought, nothing more and nothing less.

Terminally Unique

It is a natural curiosity, yes, but Trimpey leaves that out of the books, at least the ones that are based on AVRT. The assumption is the reverse of most disease theories, including psychological disease theories. Drugs make you feel good, and if you take them for long enough, your body will necessarily adapt and a perverted survival drive (the Beast), similar to one's sex drive, only more potent, will eventually be born.

In other words, drugs cause addiction, although there is mention of gambling and other vices.

soberlicious

Agreed, but that still doesn't address the original question. oh well...

Terminally Unique

Yes, I understand, but while AVRT can keep you sober as a stone, it simply cannot help you with underlying reasons or issues. If other behaviors become problematic for you, you can add them to the Big Plan and knock it off.

I also understand the temptation to get into psychology, especially given the fascination with the psychological theory of addiction by Stanton Peele and Jeffrey A. Schaler, which have quite a following.

While I consider CBT/RET a nice adjunct for dealing with issues once securely abstinent, part of the beauty of AVRT is that it doesn't include any of that stuff.

I like to think of AVRT as "Step Zero." :-)

freethinking

I can buy that.

soberlicious

Absolutely. Behaviors like alcohol, smoking, drugs, gambling, etc. yep...big plan...knock it off. Couldn't agree more. I think other problematiic behaviors are trickier as they do call for some amount of moderating (eating, sex, spending). In other words, one has to navigate overeating or undereating while still consuming food. I think you said Trimpey addresses this in other books?

wpainterw

Soberdelicious posted awhile back that it seemed strange that some folks have a beast and others not. I'd like to be straightened out on this. I thought everybody was born with a beast, namely a lizard brain. This is described in Trimpey's book Ch.10. And I understand that the theory is that when a person drinks a lot (maybe because he or she just likes the buzz or for whatever reason) the beast checks in with that, does what it can to perpetuate the fun, keep the party going, etc. and goes upstairs to be the folks in the conference room and get them to look in the file cabinet and get lots of wonderful reasons for the addictive voice to argue in court as to why I should drink. So maybe I put the beast back in its cage and ignore it for awhile. What might the beast do then? Seek pleasure in some other way. Say load up on some extra desserts. Interesting! I often wondered why some of the old timers at meetings who had, they said, years and years of sobriety, seemed like they were maybe 100 pounds overweight! I can hear that beast talkin' ("Give me another shovelfull of that chocolate pie!")
One more thing. All of this sounds familiar. Didn't a lady in the White House awhile back say, "The only thing you have to do is just say no!" Is that what you're saying we do, Terminally? Just say no and all will be O.K. Easy as that? I remember that my struggle with getting free of alcohol was the toughest, scariest, roughest thing I ever had to do. And no way did I have any assurance that it was all going to come out O.K. That it would be a piece of cake (there's that cake idea coming back again- back in your cage, Beast!)

W.

Terminally Unique

Everyone has a Limbic system, which responds to pleasure in order to reinforce behaviors, yes. Even eating or drinking water releases some amount of Dopamine so that you keep doing it. However, the Limbic simply was not designed to deal with the obscene amount of Dopamine and other analogues released by synthetic drugs. It literally gets overwhelmed, confused, and believes that it needs the drugs to survive. The Beast is this new, perverted survival drive.

I can see how some people try and re-created that rush with other activities, but they are never going to get to the same kick out of it that they would with drugs. The amount of Dopamine released by eating cake simply can't approach the amounts released by the ingestion of alcohol, or other, more potent drugs. I drink a lot of coffee when I feel down, and it seems to help in the short term, but it is nowhere near as strong as say, whiskey.

Terminally Unique

I'm glad I don't have those problems, besides possibly the amount of time I spend on the computer, which is difficult because I need the computer for work. I suppose you would have to draw a line, as in "I will not spend more than one hour a day devoted to leisure time on the computer," or "I will not spend more than $50 / month on shoes."

I haven't read the book "Taming the Feast Beast: How to Recognize the Voice of Fatness and End Your Struggle with Food Forever," nor do I intend to, since I don't need it. I do know that it was written prior to "The New Cure," and like the Small Book, contains some of Albert Ellis' ideas from REBT. I may go back through the Journal of Rational Recovery and read some of the articles on it, though.

For now, I can't properly speak to its content, however.

soberlicious

True...but I'm telling you what...when I jumped out of an airplane I have never felt a rush like that. It was a dopamine flood...but alas the freefall was just not nearly long enough for me LOL


yes, and the brain reacts by producing less dopamine naturally and getting rid of receptors...effs things up...so I would think it would take a while for things to be balanced again after quitting...and for some maybe it never balances out?

soberlicious

Yes, I agree it's about balance. Generally I look at what I need to do to reduce my suffering in relation to a problematic behavior and take that action. I was just asking because in applying AVRT to other problem behaviors, a big plan might look a little different. I won't read the other book either, I was just curious as to what Addictive Voice Recognition Training would look like when applied in other situations.

As far as the shoes...if they are cute and on sale, the amount of dopamine released automatically doubles LOL

soberlicious

sorry...*technique*, not training

wpainterw

I see that the conversation has switched to dopamine. There is an interesting tie in here with Parkinson's Disease,which I gather is due to a lack of dopamine, one treatment being administration of L-Dopa medication or its equivalent. And if the dosage is computed erroneously, an excess of this can lead to psychotic symptoms. One member of our family with Parkinsons and on L-Dopa said that he believed he was in a beautiful garden while sitting in his kitchen.
So dopamine has a link to hallucinatory psychosis. This is interesting stuff and may make things difficult for those who argue that alcoholism cannot be an illness in the same way Parkinsons or Diabetes is. That folks suffering from it are normal except that they suffer from a difficult "Beast".

W.

Terminally Unique

I've gotten several Private Messages from people saying that they can't afford the Rational Recovery book. You can get a used copy of "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey on Amazon.com or Half.com for about $2, or under $6 shipped. If you can't afford that, you probably can't afford your next relapse, either.

I do have some links with additional information I can send people, but the book is worth it, IMO.

Zencat

I found the free Google book just the other day: Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction By Jack Trimpey

The book link opens up to the AVRT chapter, but the whole book looks to be there.

edit: Ohooo its only a preview of the book