If Drinking is Just a Choice
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
Hi Sainos,
forgive me for jumping in - just about to hop off SR in a minute, so I haven't been able to read all the responses....
but, if no one else has mentioned it, I can highly recommend a book by Marc Lewis (neuroscientist and recovered drug addict) called 'The Biology of Desire: why addiction is not a disease' [please note, that he argues the not-disease aspect very cogently, in order to focus on how the brain has literally learned addiction....and then, how we have to (in effect) rebuild our brains with abstinence and re-setting goals, etc etc]. I hope you find it answers some of your questions - I'm a bit of a 'need to know!' type, like you :-). His work actually has, I believe, helped me really start to accept my alcoholism, because I can picture what he describes and relate to it from my own experience.
forgive me for jumping in - just about to hop off SR in a minute, so I haven't been able to read all the responses....
but, if no one else has mentioned it, I can highly recommend a book by Marc Lewis (neuroscientist and recovered drug addict) called 'The Biology of Desire: why addiction is not a disease' [please note, that he argues the not-disease aspect very cogently, in order to focus on how the brain has literally learned addiction....and then, how we have to (in effect) rebuild our brains with abstinence and re-setting goals, etc etc]. I hope you find it answers some of your questions - I'm a bit of a 'need to know!' type, like you :-). His work actually has, I believe, helped me really start to accept my alcoholism, because I can picture what he describes and relate to it from my own experience.
Sober date 5/1/13
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Staffordshire UK
Posts: 3,547
The general population are diverse therefore we, addicts, are diverse.
Given the same stimuli we will each do different things driven by our up bringing and life experiences. Conditions that cause one person to drink will not cause another to drink.
None medical/scientific people like to pigeon hole people. 'People with a problem with alcohol are alcoholics.' I learnt yesterday that there are several types of albino.
For years people were diagnosed as Autistic. Then they were diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergic. Now a medic working in the field will say they are 'on the spectrum'.
The punch line - we're on the alcoholic spectrum. When I drank I could go for months without a drink others would need a daily top up. Trying to answer 'why?' is above my pay grade.
Given the same stimuli we will each do different things driven by our up bringing and life experiences. Conditions that cause one person to drink will not cause another to drink.
None medical/scientific people like to pigeon hole people. 'People with a problem with alcohol are alcoholics.' I learnt yesterday that there are several types of albino.
For years people were diagnosed as Autistic. Then they were diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergic. Now a medic working in the field will say they are 'on the spectrum'.
The punch line - we're on the alcoholic spectrum. When I drank I could go for months without a drink others would need a daily top up. Trying to answer 'why?' is above my pay grade.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
I read a book recently called "The Power of Habit". It describes the loop we get caught up in and describes how a physiological shift occurs in the brain. I don't have the book here so I am writing from memory.
When we first begin a behavior we use one part of our brain. When that behavior is repeated often enough that activity and our anticipation of the reward actually shifts to a different part of the brain. Once that occurs the anticipation of the reward becomes a very strong driving force. You can see this with activities that aren't harmful as well. I am a figure skater and I actually get sweaty and my heart races when I get to the rink parking lot in anticipated of the endorphin rush that inevitably follows.
That is why early sobriety is so hard. Two different parts of your brain are struggling for control and it takes a very conscious effort to let the frontal (prudent) part of your brain take control again. I think that is why rehab is often prescribed for 30 days, or AA advises 90 meetings in 90 days. These are both behavioral modifications that interrupt a habit loop.
When we honestly look at our behavior and talk about it we become conscious of this mechanism. It feels physically uncomfortable to shift any engrained habit, and knowing that when you are making this change that anxiousness and anxiety will occur helps to handle it. IMO when you are most uncomfortable in early sobriety that is when you are actually beginning to rewire your brain.
When we first begin a behavior we use one part of our brain. When that behavior is repeated often enough that activity and our anticipation of the reward actually shifts to a different part of the brain. Once that occurs the anticipation of the reward becomes a very strong driving force. You can see this with activities that aren't harmful as well. I am a figure skater and I actually get sweaty and my heart races when I get to the rink parking lot in anticipated of the endorphin rush that inevitably follows.
That is why early sobriety is so hard. Two different parts of your brain are struggling for control and it takes a very conscious effort to let the frontal (prudent) part of your brain take control again. I think that is why rehab is often prescribed for 30 days, or AA advises 90 meetings in 90 days. These are both behavioral modifications that interrupt a habit loop.
When we honestly look at our behavior and talk about it we become conscious of this mechanism. It feels physically uncomfortable to shift any engrained habit, and knowing that when you are making this change that anxiousness and anxiety will occur helps to handle it. IMO when you are most uncomfortable in early sobriety that is when you are actually beginning to rewire your brain.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
Here is an abstract that touches on what I just described.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19073425
andhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730661/
andhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730661/
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by bemyself 
Hi Sainos,
forgive me for jumping in - just about to hop off SR in a minute, so I haven't been able to read all the responses....
but, if no one else has mentioned it, I can highly recommend a book by Marc Lewis (neuroscientist and recovered drug addict) called 'The Biology of Desire: why addiction is not a disease' [please note, that he argues the not-disease aspect very cogently, in order to focus on how the brain has literally learned addiction....and then, how we have to (in effect) rebuild our brains with abstinence and re-setting goals, etc etc]. I hope you find it answers some of your questions - I'm a bit of a 'need to know!' type, like you :-). His work actually has, I believe, helped me really start to accept my alcoholism, because I can picture what he describes and relate to it from my own experience.
forgive me for jumping in - just about to hop off SR in a minute, so I haven't been able to read all the responses....
but, if no one else has mentioned it, I can highly recommend a book by Marc Lewis (neuroscientist and recovered drug addict) called 'The Biology of Desire: why addiction is not a disease' [please note, that he argues the not-disease aspect very cogently, in order to focus on how the brain has literally learned addiction....and then, how we have to (in effect) rebuild our brains with abstinence and re-setting goals, etc etc]. I hope you find it answers some of your questions - I'm a bit of a 'need to know!' type, like you :-). His work actually has, I believe, helped me really start to accept my alcoholism, because I can picture what he describes and relate to it from my own experience.
It sounds very much worth a read.
I do believe in the learnt behaviour theory of addiction, and whatever has been learnt can be unlearnt, or you can retrain yourself into a different behavior.
Thank you
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by jaynie04
I read a book recently called "The Power of Habit". It describes the loop we get caught up in and describes how a physiological shift occurs in the brain. I don't have the book here so I am writing from memory.
When we first begin a behavior we use one part of our brain. When that behavior is repeated often enough that activity and our anticipation of the reward actually shifts to a different part of the brain. Once that occurs the anticipation of the reward becomes a very strong driving force. You can see this with activities that aren't harmful as well. I am a figure skater and I actually get sweaty and my heart races when I get to the rink parking lot in anticipated of the endorphin rush that inevitably follows.
That is why early sobriety is so hard. Two different parts of your brain are struggling for control and it takes a very conscious effort to let the frontal (prudent) part of your brain take control again. I think that is why rehab is often prescribed for 30 days, or AA advises 90 meetings in 90 days. These are both behavioral modifications that interrupt a habit loop.
When we honestly look at our behavior and talk about it we become conscious of this mechanism. It feels physically uncomfortable to shift any engrained habit, and knowing that when you are making this change that anxiousness and anxiety will occur helps to handle it. IMO when you are most uncomfortable in early sobriety that is when you are actually beginning to rewire your brain.
When we first begin a behavior we use one part of our brain. When that behavior is repeated often enough that activity and our anticipation of the reward actually shifts to a different part of the brain. Once that occurs the anticipation of the reward becomes a very strong driving force. You can see this with activities that aren't harmful as well. I am a figure skater and I actually get sweaty and my heart races when I get to the rink parking lot in anticipated of the endorphin rush that inevitably follows.
That is why early sobriety is so hard. Two different parts of your brain are struggling for control and it takes a very conscious effort to let the frontal (prudent) part of your brain take control again. I think that is why rehab is often prescribed for 30 days, or AA advises 90 meetings in 90 days. These are both behavioral modifications that interrupt a habit loop.
When we honestly look at our behavior and talk about it we become conscious of this mechanism. It feels physically uncomfortable to shift any engrained habit, and knowing that when you are making this change that anxiousness and anxiety will occur helps to handle it. IMO when you are most uncomfortable in early sobriety that is when you are actually beginning to rewire your brain.
But what you describe sounds like something different.
What you have said about anxiety and anxiousness when making the shift makes sense. This is why I like to know things! If you can have an understanding of what is going on, it can make all the difference!
Then a negative becomes a positive, like seeing the discomfort as a side effect of healing
Thank you
And thank you for the links in your post after this..I will be checking those out.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by Treerat66
The general population are diverse therefore we, addicts, are diverse.
Given the same stimuli we will each do different things driven by our up bringing and life experiences. Conditions that cause one person to drink will not cause another to drink.
None medical/scientific people like to pigeon hole people. 'People with a problem with alcohol are alcoholics.' I learnt yesterday that there are several types of albino.
For years people were diagnosed as Autistic. Then they were diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergic. Now a medic working in the field will say they are 'on the spectrum'.
The punch line - we're on the alcoholic spectrum. When I drank I could go for months without a drink others would need a daily top up. Trying to answer 'why?' is above my pay grade.
Given the same stimuli we will each do different things driven by our up bringing and life experiences. Conditions that cause one person to drink will not cause another to drink.
None medical/scientific people like to pigeon hole people. 'People with a problem with alcohol are alcoholics.' I learnt yesterday that there are several types of albino.
For years people were diagnosed as Autistic. Then they were diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergic. Now a medic working in the field will say they are 'on the spectrum'.
The punch line - we're on the alcoholic spectrum. When I drank I could go for months without a drink others would need a daily top up. Trying to answer 'why?' is above my pay grade.
But when you think about it, it makes perfect sense!
Why I think it is sooo important to have a plan cobbled together for something that fits YOU as an individual. Of course, not drinking is the only way to stop drinking haha...but I think having something you can relate to and grasp at least the gist of what is happening in your brain helps some, like me!
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
I think my post is echoing bemyself's post. I am like you in that reading about the science made my sobriety easier. We are grappling with an obesity epidemic here in the States that I see as a very similar issue. People are becoming hooked early on in life on cheap sugar and it becomes a very difficult issue for many. A substance is introduced that causes all the bells and whistles in the brain to light up and even though excess weight begins to harm people it becomes very very difficult for so many people to change unhealthy behaviors. It is heartbreaking to think of those neural pathways being formed in early childhood and the devastating effects that so many people suffer from for a lifetime as a result. People that binge on food often describe almost a fugue state that is so reminiscent of my struggle with alcohol.
Like addiction being overweight continues to carry a lot of shame and judgement in today's world. IMO talking about the science behind cravings and urges takes the judgement out of the issue. The choices that manifest are a result of what is going on in the brain and it is when we become conscious of the fact that we are behaving in a way that is hurting us because our wiring has been condition then we can set about changing that wiring.
Like addiction being overweight continues to carry a lot of shame and judgement in today's world. IMO talking about the science behind cravings and urges takes the judgement out of the issue. The choices that manifest are a result of what is going on in the brain and it is when we become conscious of the fact that we are behaving in a way that is hurting us because our wiring has been condition then we can set about changing that wiring.
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
Yes jaynie, and I think there are such huge profits being made, by both the junk food industry and the drink industry, that the physical effect it is having on peoples brains is downplayed to the max.
It's easier to say overwieght people are greedy and people with an alcohol problem have no self control, than to give people the full facts before these things are pushed as "harmless in moderation" when the people manufacturing the stuff know all the science of how these things can alter the brain so people DO want more of them.
It's easier to say overwieght people are greedy and people with an alcohol problem have no self control, than to give people the full facts before these things are pushed as "harmless in moderation" when the people manufacturing the stuff know all the science of how these things can alter the brain so people DO want more of them.
Giving up is NOT an option.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 7,809
Like addiction being overweight continues to carry a lot of shame and judgement in today's world. IMO talking about the science behind cravings and urges takes the judgement out of the issue. The choices that manifest are a result of what is going on in the brain and it is when we become conscious of the fact that we are behaving in a way that is hurting us because our wiring has been condition then we can set about changing that wiring.
Totally agree here. We need to take the shame out of addiction, so that people will more readily seek help. Knowing the scientific reasons for my inability to control my drinking for so long helped me be open about it, bring it into the light. I still feel some shame about things I did while drinking (but less as time passes and I make amends), but I'm not ashamed of being an alcoholic.
Totally agree here. We need to take the shame out of addiction, so that people will more readily seek help. Knowing the scientific reasons for my inability to control my drinking for so long helped me be open about it, bring it into the light. I still feel some shame about things I did while drinking (but less as time passes and I make amends), but I'm not ashamed of being an alcoholic.
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
On a different note from scientific theories, I reckon I have read just about every addiction memoir ever written, not joking, there are at least 60 on my kindle.
But I have stopped doing it now, because I think they were making me worse!
I only read when I have been stopped drinking for a couple of weeks
But after reading about peoples drinking history, and them describing it in graphic detail, and then their low point, then their redemption, I think I was getting too much into the stories.
After being sober a couple of weeks myself, I would start reading these stories, and at first how much these people loved their drink, and the good times they had. (Not good, now I think about it when I only had a couple of weeks myself)
Then, the getting out of hand and hitting a low (To which I can think, at least I'm not in a bad a state as them)
Then the redemption (To which I can think, it's actually ME recovered, or will be, totally, one day, by magic)
Then, I start thinking about the actual fun drinking they had. Then, well, I was nowhere near the mess they were in. Then, well, if they were in that bad a state and came out of it, then I will too, one day.
I think I was totally missing the point of these memoirs!
But I have stopped doing it now, because I think they were making me worse!
I only read when I have been stopped drinking for a couple of weeks
But after reading about peoples drinking history, and them describing it in graphic detail, and then their low point, then their redemption, I think I was getting too much into the stories.
After being sober a couple of weeks myself, I would start reading these stories, and at first how much these people loved their drink, and the good times they had. (Not good, now I think about it when I only had a couple of weeks myself)
Then, the getting out of hand and hitting a low (To which I can think, at least I'm not in a bad a state as them)
Then the redemption (To which I can think, it's actually ME recovered, or will be, totally, one day, by magic)
Then, I start thinking about the actual fun drinking they had. Then, well, I was nowhere near the mess they were in. Then, well, if they were in that bad a state and came out of it, then I will too, one day.
I think I was totally missing the point of these memoirs!
Giving up is NOT an option.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 7,809
I didn't read any until I had some good sober time under my belt. By then, any romanticizing of drinking was long in the past for me. I don't think I could have handled reading them when I was newly sober. Even now, they can make me really uncomfortable, but in a way I think is helpful. Reading about the low points, the rock bottoms, reminds me I did and still could sink pretty low. Maybe not as low as the writers did, but certainly within sight of it. And I know 100% I do not want to go there ever again. It was a personal hell I do not wish to experience again.
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
Yes MLD I think I read those when it was too soon.
I think the most harmful part was vocariously sharing in anothers success and thinking it would "just happen" to me too, without actually committing to making it happen haha
I think the most harmful part was vocariously sharing in anothers success and thinking it would "just happen" to me too, without actually committing to making it happen haha
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Sainos, you currently have two threads running in Newcomers, one secular, one non-secular. If you're an egotist, and you drank to excess purely because you tried to control everything and body around you, as AA says, as an actor trying to be a director, and you believe that an external 'higher power' will stop you drinking, then AA is the way to go.
If you're not an egotist and believe that you drank so much that you altered your brain wiring, then seek another, neuro-science route. One in which you have the inherent power.
I tried both. The latter worked for me. I'm reborn. It's simply amazing and at the same time, heartbreaking. As in why didn't I discover this simple, biological, scientific, easy solution sooner!
Stop the clock, reclaim your power of choice. Even the American medical doctors, who seek to retain funding for their 'treatment centres' now call alcoholism 'a disease of choice'. It always was. Pre-frontal cortex slapped on top of the old survivalist brain; which adores dopamine and is ill equipped to deal with the massive, abnormal, dopamine rushes that alcohol, drugs, fatty and sugary foods etc, provide.
It really isn't rocket science. It is difficult, but you need to retrain your brain, re-wire those defective alcohol seeking circuits and re-direct your attention instead to what your real, true self requires, abstinence.
If you're not an egotist and believe that you drank so much that you altered your brain wiring, then seek another, neuro-science route. One in which you have the inherent power.
I tried both. The latter worked for me. I'm reborn. It's simply amazing and at the same time, heartbreaking. As in why didn't I discover this simple, biological, scientific, easy solution sooner!
Stop the clock, reclaim your power of choice. Even the American medical doctors, who seek to retain funding for their 'treatment centres' now call alcoholism 'a disease of choice'. It always was. Pre-frontal cortex slapped on top of the old survivalist brain; which adores dopamine and is ill equipped to deal with the massive, abnormal, dopamine rushes that alcohol, drugs, fatty and sugary foods etc, provide.
It really isn't rocket science. It is difficult, but you need to retrain your brain, re-wire those defective alcohol seeking circuits and re-direct your attention instead to what your real, true self requires, abstinence.
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
I have just posted in my other thread.
I don't see how I cannot believe in a divine power and science?
I just don't see the creative life force that I believe in being responsible in taking away my drinking!
And I don't want to give up my "self" that I fought so hard to have, by becoming one of a "group" mind.
The reason I was even considering joining a group was that I am very isolated and the NHS recovery program only offers an AA based rehab.
But, if you read my other thread, at the start of which I was trying to weigh up the pros and cons, you will see I have decieded!
I'll find another way to get out of the isolation I have worked my way into
I don't see how I cannot believe in a divine power and science?
I just don't see the creative life force that I believe in being responsible in taking away my drinking!
And I don't want to give up my "self" that I fought so hard to have, by becoming one of a "group" mind.
The reason I was even considering joining a group was that I am very isolated and the NHS recovery program only offers an AA based rehab.
But, if you read my other thread, at the start of which I was trying to weigh up the pros and cons, you will see I have decieded!
I'll find another way to get out of the isolation I have worked my way into
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 162
PS cut me some slack, Im just coming out of a brain fuddle, and have just read my AVRT book that I bought years ago and refreshed myself on why it worked so well on my longest ever non drinking time since alcohol became a problem.
I went back to drinking because I wanted to, I made a conscious decision to. I wasn't even having urges at the time.
My head is just starting to get straight now though so I can see that
I went back to drinking because I wanted to, I made a conscious decision to. I wasn't even having urges at the time.
My head is just starting to get straight now though so I can see that
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Sainos, I haven't read your other thread post yet. But I too believe in a 'creative life force' but I also believe that the same life force wasn't responsible for making me drink or stopping me drinking. The reason being, is that same life force had already equipped me with the ability to stop. drinking.
I do hope you're OK, I didn't mean to offend you,; only help you in your path forward, towards your goal,; abstinence and growing. Please keep talking here, your posts are valuable.
I do hope you're OK, I didn't mean to offend you,; only help you in your path forward, towards your goal,; abstinence and growing. Please keep talking here, your posts are valuable.
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