When Sharing Backfires....
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 638
I think you did a nice thing, but you shook that person from their addictive fantasy to face reality, and she was in part forced to meet what you said with honesty.
Addiction is insidous but it is also individual. I'm certain that on some level you did help that person, maybe past all the denial what you said will register later, slowly but eventually they will face up to it. This will mean leaving the idea that 'pot' has been a healthy hyped substance that's not even a drug. It is not always easy to admit these things, especially with so much past emotion, ideation (denial) invested in this thinking world.
Tough love is sometimes the only and best solution. But their addiction is never your problem really, I'd just think that sharing in a place where it is sought would be something very much wanted there.
Addiction is insidous but it is also individual. I'm certain that on some level you did help that person, maybe past all the denial what you said will register later, slowly but eventually they will face up to it. This will mean leaving the idea that 'pot' has been a healthy hyped substance that's not even a drug. It is not always easy to admit these things, especially with so much past emotion, ideation (denial) invested in this thinking world.
Tough love is sometimes the only and best solution. But their addiction is never your problem really, I'd just think that sharing in a place where it is sought would be something very much wanted there.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
part of the conversation included the idea of Pot as "Medicine".
She asked if I was a 'card-holder' and I said no, I'd never done that and I shared that I was glad I hadn't. I said that I felt it would have enabled me to see pot as "medicine" for my anxiety, "medicine" for my depression and sadness.... as "medicine" for the very things I needed to learn how to deal with as a sober human being if I were to truly attain sobriety.
I think this part really ticked her off.... again, I was sharing MY feelings and MY experience and MY truth - but I sense that she took it as me pointing a finger at her and saying 'you're wrong'.
I can understand that. I can understand how she might have even actually HEARD my words as saying exactly that; "you're wrong. it's NOT medicine. you're fooling yourself".
I didn't say those words at all, but I know exactly how it can feel hearing words that trigger my own inner knowledge of something I'm not ready to admit yet.
I do think that this trend toward 'medicinal marijuana' is a dangerous thing for some of us with addiction. It enables us with the message that pot is somehow 'different'. It gives us the loophole to say "well I don't have a substance addiction - I have a 'condition' and it requires 'medication'". Granted - there are those who perhaps do have legitimate conditions that marijuana can potentially help. But as a long time recreational user, a person who has many friends who have "medical" marijuana cards, a person who has in the past come very close to getting his own card to be a legal pot smoker..... I can say with some direct experience and confidence that the great majority of "medical" marijuana users are actually just glorified recreational pot smokers who don't want to get busted for their DOC.
She asked if I was a 'card-holder' and I said no, I'd never done that and I shared that I was glad I hadn't. I said that I felt it would have enabled me to see pot as "medicine" for my anxiety, "medicine" for my depression and sadness.... as "medicine" for the very things I needed to learn how to deal with as a sober human being if I were to truly attain sobriety.
I think this part really ticked her off.... again, I was sharing MY feelings and MY experience and MY truth - but I sense that she took it as me pointing a finger at her and saying 'you're wrong'.
I can understand that. I can understand how she might have even actually HEARD my words as saying exactly that; "you're wrong. it's NOT medicine. you're fooling yourself".
I didn't say those words at all, but I know exactly how it can feel hearing words that trigger my own inner knowledge of something I'm not ready to admit yet.
I do think that this trend toward 'medicinal marijuana' is a dangerous thing for some of us with addiction. It enables us with the message that pot is somehow 'different'. It gives us the loophole to say "well I don't have a substance addiction - I have a 'condition' and it requires 'medication'". Granted - there are those who perhaps do have legitimate conditions that marijuana can potentially help. But as a long time recreational user, a person who has many friends who have "medical" marijuana cards, a person who has in the past come very close to getting his own card to be a legal pot smoker..... I can say with some direct experience and confidence that the great majority of "medical" marijuana users are actually just glorified recreational pot smokers who don't want to get busted for their DOC.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Well, that attitude doesn't sound recovered, IMO.
"The Great Majority"? Please to point me to the research on this.
I don't see pot as being as dangerous as alcohol. I've never heard of anyone ODing on pot or dying due to using it...unless it was by doing something clumsy or stupid like driving or juggling chainsaws. However, I never was a pot-smoker. Tried it, didn't like it; so I don't really have the experience to even talk about it. I can see where it is a slippery slope for addictive types, though.
This argument is one that will cause riffs in AA meetings - and that's probably why AA's mission is about alcohol. I think sharing about it after and before meetings is okay, but this particular issue is not really an AA one, and doesn't belong in a meeting, IMO.
"The Great Majority"? Please to point me to the research on this.
I don't see pot as being as dangerous as alcohol. I've never heard of anyone ODing on pot or dying due to using it...unless it was by doing something clumsy or stupid like driving or juggling chainsaws. However, I never was a pot-smoker. Tried it, didn't like it; so I don't really have the experience to even talk about it. I can see where it is a slippery slope for addictive types, though.
This argument is one that will cause riffs in AA meetings - and that's probably why AA's mission is about alcohol. I think sharing about it after and before meetings is okay, but this particular issue is not really an AA one, and doesn't belong in a meeting, IMO.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I think it's as simple as nobody wants unsolicited advice on how to improve themselves. Doesn't matter the giver, doesn't matter the recipient, doesn't matter the situation. Sharing your esh in a meeting is completely different than a one on one where your conversation cannot be seen as anything other than advice. And advice given when it is not requested is the junk mail of life. Since the genders are different here, there is likely a power aspect to the response you received too. You could be just the next in a long line of pushy males asserting themselves, depriving her of agency once again.
If you want to understand what happened, my advice is simple. Put yourself in that person's place and try to look at it from her point of view. Things will become clearer.
If you want to understand what happened, my advice is simple. Put yourself in that person's place and try to look at it from her point of view. Things will become clearer.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northern Australia
Posts: 197
Originally Posted by IOAA2 
As much as we might try we can’t get anyone sober or drunk, however we never know when we plant the sober seed
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
It belongs in a meeting from the standpoint that IN MY EXPERIENCE - continued reliance upon marijuana opened a doorway to relapse of my alcoholism.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - I found that while I continued to use marijuana, I was unable to get fully honest and to learn non-addictive ways of coping with life that were healthy.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - I didn't work the steps while I was still using pot.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - everyone I know who claims "medical" reasons for their pot use and their pot card does so with a wink and a nod and are just recreational users.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - Sobriety wasn't what I was really doing while I was still using marijuana.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - I used "but nobody ever OD'd" and "But I never got a DUI or got in fights or blah blah blah" as all the myriad reasons to justify continuing to use marijuana. I can't say that it was directly at fault for my struggles with alcohol. Who's to say what the causal relationships may be. But I can say that FOR ME, when I stopped smoking pot even just occasionally, my sobriety deepened and my whole perspective shifted.
In that regard, I maintain it absolutely belongs in an AA meeting. MY Experience, Strength and Hope is that today I am living a sober, happy, evolving, rich and joyous life and I believe that continuing to use marijuana would have continued to impair that.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - I found that while I continued to use marijuana, I was unable to get fully honest and to learn non-addictive ways of coping with life that were healthy.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - I didn't work the steps while I was still using pot.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - everyone I know who claims "medical" reasons for their pot use and their pot card does so with a wink and a nod and are just recreational users.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - Sobriety wasn't what I was really doing while I was still using marijuana.
IN MY EXPERIENCE - I used "but nobody ever OD'd" and "But I never got a DUI or got in fights or blah blah blah" as all the myriad reasons to justify continuing to use marijuana. I can't say that it was directly at fault for my struggles with alcohol. Who's to say what the causal relationships may be. But I can say that FOR ME, when I stopped smoking pot even just occasionally, my sobriety deepened and my whole perspective shifted.
In that regard, I maintain it absolutely belongs in an AA meeting. MY Experience, Strength and Hope is that today I am living a sober, happy, evolving, rich and joyous life and I believe that continuing to use marijuana would have continued to impair that.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
Originally Posted by freshstart57
I think it's as simple as nobody wants unsolicited advice on how to improve themselves. Doesn't matter the giver, doesn't matter the recipient, doesn't matter the situation. Sharing your esh in a meeting is completely different than a one on one where your conversation cannot be seen as anything other than advice. And advice given when it is not requested is the junk mail of life. Since the genders are different here, there is likely a power aspect to the response you received too. You could be just the next in a long line of pushy males asserting themselves, depriving her of agency once again.
If you want to understand what happened, my advice is simple. Put yourself in that person's place and try to look at it from her point of view. Things will become clearer.
If you want to understand what happened, my advice is simple. Put yourself in that person's place and try to look at it from her point of view. Things will become clearer.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Okay so reading through this thread, I feel some inspiration to write a mini novel... but there have been so many rich points made already. So maybe just one thing, something that I try to do in my life (sometimes successfully, other times less so). Everyone gets defensive at times, and indeed, people who struggle with sobriety or are newly sober, or suffer with psychological problems, are naturally more sensitive and often more reactive. That's perfectly normal. It's also normal that we all want to/tend to defend things that we feel strongly about -- either because it works for us and so valuable, or the opposite, because we perceive an attack straight into an insecure spot. Also, what one person perceives as attack or defensiveness, another person will never see that way. I cannot imagine how human beings could ever be completely free of defenses.
So the point I would like to make, or what I think, is that arguments are OK, being defensive is OK, conflicts are natural and normal parts of life. I often feel that being overly careful and not saying what we think may just be equally unhelpful as going on too strongly. The thing is perhaps to know where to stop and how to resolve the conflict. Yeah sometimes silence is better than anything else and this obviously requires self control. I think it's very important that we are able to accept defensiveness in both ourselves and others. And if there is indeed conflict, try to resolve it or leave it alone, depending on many factors. Like everything about social life and communication, it's a form of art and none of us will ever play it perfectly. We also differ in how much importance we put on what other people think of us. The key is tolerance, probably. And tolerance will never be perfect in any of us either... so really, knowing where to stop without much damage, as much as possible, is crucial.
So the point I would like to make, or what I think, is that arguments are OK, being defensive is OK, conflicts are natural and normal parts of life. I often feel that being overly careful and not saying what we think may just be equally unhelpful as going on too strongly. The thing is perhaps to know where to stop and how to resolve the conflict. Yeah sometimes silence is better than anything else and this obviously requires self control. I think it's very important that we are able to accept defensiveness in both ourselves and others. And if there is indeed conflict, try to resolve it or leave it alone, depending on many factors. Like everything about social life and communication, it's a form of art and none of us will ever play it perfectly. We also differ in how much importance we put on what other people think of us. The key is tolerance, probably. And tolerance will never be perfect in any of us either... so really, knowing where to stop without much damage, as much as possible, is crucial.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 985
FreeOwl -
I'm with Freshstart. in that there is a distinct difference between sharing your experience with the group in a meeting and sharing one-on-one outside a meeting. I reserve the latter for folks I am very very close with. The whole tough love thing requires, well, love. I will truth-tell when faced with someone I deeply love who is directly asking for feedback. Even my two adult children must "directly ask for feedback" before I offer it. I've had that in place since the day they turned 18. Prior to that it actually was my role to offer feedback/my experience to them when I thought it could support them, regardless of whether they thought it needed. I believe that parenting is just about the only place in which that fits - even in intimate relationship, I try to only give unsolicited feedback if something is directly impacting me, and only if I can offer an alternative...
So, yes, even if you were brimming with kind intent, and even if your message were wise, and even if I considered you a "program friend," if you came at me with advice on how to "better my program" outside a meeting, I would be prickly and resistant.
It would not help me. It would make me stubbornly wall you out, potentially for a long time. Either I agree with you and so your feedback makes me feel shame and guilt and discomfort, or I don't agree with you, and that is my right. Most particularly about the use of marijuana as medicine in sobriety - an issue with very strong beliefs and feelings on each side. While I respect that your beliefs are grounded in your own experience, so are those of the "other side." I was raised in "marijuana as medicine" environments, and folks with that belief believe that rather than simply a coping tool, marijuana actually has healing properties. There are MANY people who truly use medicinal marijuana as medicine, not recreationally. My 74-year-old mother is dying of cancer, currently in hospice, and medicinal marijuana was part of her prescribed regime. She was never a pot smoker, and used the salve for related skin issues and a vaporizer at specific times of the day to aid in her breathing and appetite. I suspect that this is very different from your experience with why you were smoking pot. I believe we have to be very careful about the beliefs and generalizations that arise from our own very personal and thus limited experience.
At any rate, you are one of the people whom I most respect on these boards. You are self-examining, kind, and your sobriety feels solid and lovely. You share images of the healthy and amazing life you are building - 9 mile runs in the snow with friends, etc. As I've gotten to know you here, your positive images of sobriety have given me strength and direction. My suggestion would be that as you "share your experience" with folks outside your immediate circle, you have experiences to share that are positive and motivational...modeling that sort of meaning and happiness are likely more effective than negative feedback (even when it is in the form of "experience").
I just know that anyone who tells me I should have: quit smoking, eat cleaner, exercise more, etc., just got shut out. Because I already knew, deep down, that I needed to do those things, but was "working up to" being strong enough to take them on. Now that I've done them (quitting drinking or smoking, for example) the quality of my life has improved, but until I was ready, I wasn't ready, no matter what I (or anyone else) knew would be better for me...
I'm with Freshstart. in that there is a distinct difference between sharing your experience with the group in a meeting and sharing one-on-one outside a meeting. I reserve the latter for folks I am very very close with. The whole tough love thing requires, well, love. I will truth-tell when faced with someone I deeply love who is directly asking for feedback. Even my two adult children must "directly ask for feedback" before I offer it. I've had that in place since the day they turned 18. Prior to that it actually was my role to offer feedback/my experience to them when I thought it could support them, regardless of whether they thought it needed. I believe that parenting is just about the only place in which that fits - even in intimate relationship, I try to only give unsolicited feedback if something is directly impacting me, and only if I can offer an alternative...
So, yes, even if you were brimming with kind intent, and even if your message were wise, and even if I considered you a "program friend," if you came at me with advice on how to "better my program" outside a meeting, I would be prickly and resistant.
It would not help me. It would make me stubbornly wall you out, potentially for a long time. Either I agree with you and so your feedback makes me feel shame and guilt and discomfort, or I don't agree with you, and that is my right. Most particularly about the use of marijuana as medicine in sobriety - an issue with very strong beliefs and feelings on each side. While I respect that your beliefs are grounded in your own experience, so are those of the "other side." I was raised in "marijuana as medicine" environments, and folks with that belief believe that rather than simply a coping tool, marijuana actually has healing properties. There are MANY people who truly use medicinal marijuana as medicine, not recreationally. My 74-year-old mother is dying of cancer, currently in hospice, and medicinal marijuana was part of her prescribed regime. She was never a pot smoker, and used the salve for related skin issues and a vaporizer at specific times of the day to aid in her breathing and appetite. I suspect that this is very different from your experience with why you were smoking pot. I believe we have to be very careful about the beliefs and generalizations that arise from our own very personal and thus limited experience.
At any rate, you are one of the people whom I most respect on these boards. You are self-examining, kind, and your sobriety feels solid and lovely. You share images of the healthy and amazing life you are building - 9 mile runs in the snow with friends, etc. As I've gotten to know you here, your positive images of sobriety have given me strength and direction. My suggestion would be that as you "share your experience" with folks outside your immediate circle, you have experiences to share that are positive and motivational...modeling that sort of meaning and happiness are likely more effective than negative feedback (even when it is in the form of "experience").
I just know that anyone who tells me I should have: quit smoking, eat cleaner, exercise more, etc., just got shut out. Because I already knew, deep down, that I needed to do those things, but was "working up to" being strong enough to take them on. Now that I've done them (quitting drinking or smoking, for example) the quality of my life has improved, but until I was ready, I wasn't ready, no matter what I (or anyone else) knew would be better for me...
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: northern AZ
Posts: 796
That Mormon crack indicates to me that's she's a very judgmental person and was just mirroring back onto you. You did a good thing following your intuition. Don't change that no matter how the message was received. You've planted the seed and it make take time to grow. Take comfort knowing that all seedlings reach for life at their own rate but reach they do. Who knows, one day she may come knocking on your door to sponsor her. Early on my sponsor said things I didn't like hearing. I venture to say all sponsors have dealt with what you are. Personally, I ask God to help me through those times. Whatever works to keep from taking the painful words of a person IN pain personally. Take care.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
The other side of this coin, FreeOwl, is that, if this woman were a member of SR or another recovery site, she might well come back here and post that she met a crazy and obnoxious "oldtimer" or "Big Book thumper" at a meeting who told her that she was doing everything wrong, that she's a POS, and that if she didn't stop smoking she'd end up dead. "This is why I don't like AA. They intentionally make you feel like shite, just because their sober lives are shite." Happens all the time.
Watch her start a thread on SR tittled:
Stalked on parking lot by crazy AA cult member
You shared your e.s.h and your motives were good. Sometimes this is all that we can do.
Provided that she does not have serious mental problems, it was her alcoholism which felt threatened and reacted to your sensible message of hope
I'm a guy.....Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
Oh if you are a guy, you should be careful approaching new women. Serious, it could be easily misconstrued and I don't think it is a good idea then.
The men with the men and the women with the women.
For some reason I always thought you were female (maybe because the owl is grammatically feminine in my native tongue).
The men with the men and the women with the women.
For some reason I always thought you were female (maybe because the owl is grammatically feminine in my native tongue).
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by FreeOwl
hahaha!!
I didn't stalk her or confront her outside the meeting room. I quietly asked her, off to the side, and kept my voice low and between us.
anyway... thanks to everyone for all your input.
I didn't stalk her or confront her outside the meeting room. I quietly asked her, off to the side, and kept my voice low and between us.
anyway... thanks to everyone for all your input.
Knowing Carlotta, she wasn't saying you were stalking or confronting.
But did you feel she was saying that?
Do your best
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 67,047
Originally Posted by Serenidad
Hey Wolf, Owl said in her post that wanted to share her experience "during" the meeting but by the time it was her turn to talk time had run out & the meeting was over. That's why she talked to her 1 on 1. :-)
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