Pissed off with people in AA
Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 642
That being said, Kiki, AA works for some people and is likely not going to change for people that like to question things. If it isn't working, then try something different. SR, SMART recovery, etc. Even more importantly, don't just sit around sulking about the fact that you can't drink. That will just lead to drinking.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
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Can I just remind people:
D
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,997
Hi Kiki,
I agree. It is a religious program. But that doesn't bother me. It's their program. They get to make the rules. Not all that different than a lot of things. I'm not particularly fond of the way my work runs everyday but I got to figure a way out to make it work in spite of it.
That person was just sharing what they thought. Not in all that great of way communication wise but still. Just their opinion.
It takes practice taking what works and leaving what doesn't. It didn't come easy for me at first either. In all of life. I know I get better at it when I don't get angry and I just think to myself...well...interesting way to look at it. Even more interesting way to say it. I think about that one for a minute. Or not.
Great job doing what is working for you. It's okay to be angry. Just don't hang on to it to long. That probably won't get you far. It never did me. Just got me frown lines between my brows.
At least you are venting here! That's good!
I agree. It is a religious program. But that doesn't bother me. It's their program. They get to make the rules. Not all that different than a lot of things. I'm not particularly fond of the way my work runs everyday but I got to figure a way out to make it work in spite of it.
That person was just sharing what they thought. Not in all that great of way communication wise but still. Just their opinion.
It takes practice taking what works and leaving what doesn't. It didn't come easy for me at first either. In all of life. I know I get better at it when I don't get angry and I just think to myself...well...interesting way to look at it. Even more interesting way to say it. I think about that one for a minute. Or not.
Great job doing what is working for you. It's okay to be angry. Just don't hang on to it to long. That probably won't get you far. It never did me. Just got me frown lines between my brows.
At least you are venting here! That's good!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mmmmmm
Posts: 3,178
Kiki,
Congrats on 7 weeks.
Use your own version of the steps. Your sponsor need not know that when you sit down and work your steps, you have a slightly revised version if he/she is not too accommodating. It's. It like you did not honestly approach them about it. If I recall, due to your location you have limited options with meetings. Think very carefully if your anger at the program is truly about God's too Christian presentation or an excuse to eventually quit in self righteousness (& then relapse).
I have taken a larger view on the prayers. I mostly meditate now rather than pray. I envision it all as energy. At some level it is all going to one source. I don't worry about anything beyond that.
If I recall this Ireland trip is an absolutely amazing trip for a must attend wedding. What is your plan to stay out of the airport bar, the local bar, the hotel bar, the wedding reception bar, and every other corner bar? I have only been to Eire once and we ate lunch every day in a bar. I am not a drinker but even I was drinking pints of Guinness qd. Eire has a magic all it's own and you need a plan to avoid its charm.
I truly want to hear of your success on this trip Kiki - I'm an optimist - so figure it out.
Congrats on 7 weeks.
Use your own version of the steps. Your sponsor need not know that when you sit down and work your steps, you have a slightly revised version if he/she is not too accommodating. It's. It like you did not honestly approach them about it. If I recall, due to your location you have limited options with meetings. Think very carefully if your anger at the program is truly about God's too Christian presentation or an excuse to eventually quit in self righteousness (& then relapse).
I have taken a larger view on the prayers. I mostly meditate now rather than pray. I envision it all as energy. At some level it is all going to one source. I don't worry about anything beyond that.
If I recall this Ireland trip is an absolutely amazing trip for a must attend wedding. What is your plan to stay out of the airport bar, the local bar, the hotel bar, the wedding reception bar, and every other corner bar? I have only been to Eire once and we ate lunch every day in a bar. I am not a drinker but even I was drinking pints of Guinness qd. Eire has a magic all it's own and you need a plan to avoid its charm.
I truly want to hear of your success on this trip Kiki - I'm an optimist - so figure it out.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
I'm kind of wondering if the steps are needed in the first place, whether spiritual or secular. It seems to be taken for granted by many that they are the basis from which we frame all further discussion. They don't have to be.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
I believe AA does have its roots in Christianity. I am also aware that there are so many components in society that can trace roots back to religion, many that we are not even aware of.
Kiki, I guess I would liken it to belonging to a political party. Most of us have a bent, and choose to identify with a particular group, although we don't agree with every individual position the party subscribes to.
I don't believe you have to deny who you are at the core to stay sober. In fact I would wager that you have a much better chance of making anything work for you by staying true to yourself. There are members here who use AA and incorporate other recovery programs as well.
I think this site is great, because different modalities intersect. I don't believe that having questions or feeling resistance in areas means you are heading for a relapse. I think it indicates that you are taking this seriously and that you realize that your sobriety is integral to your wellbeing.
As far as the guy betting against you…there are going to be people like that in any arena. As you mentioned, he is struggling, sort of hard to put out someone else's fire when you are awash in flames yourself. Only you know exactly how comfortable you are at this point in the game.
You mentioned the parts of AA that you do like. You fit the membership requirement right? Then I would say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Kiki, I guess I would liken it to belonging to a political party. Most of us have a bent, and choose to identify with a particular group, although we don't agree with every individual position the party subscribes to.
I don't believe you have to deny who you are at the core to stay sober. In fact I would wager that you have a much better chance of making anything work for you by staying true to yourself. There are members here who use AA and incorporate other recovery programs as well.
I think this site is great, because different modalities intersect. I don't believe that having questions or feeling resistance in areas means you are heading for a relapse. I think it indicates that you are taking this seriously and that you realize that your sobriety is integral to your wellbeing.
As far as the guy betting against you…there are going to be people like that in any arena. As you mentioned, he is struggling, sort of hard to put out someone else's fire when you are awash in flames yourself. Only you know exactly how comfortable you are at this point in the game.
You mentioned the parts of AA that you do like. You fit the membership requirement right? Then I would say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,701
Remember how people got to AA. They are all at different stages in life and recovery. Some will be helpful and some will not.
Just keep a healthy distance so you can get what you need and avoid the b.s. You do not have to share all your thoughts or get personally involved with the people there. If they know your personal business, of course they will comment on it. Be discrete.
Just keep a healthy distance so you can get what you need and avoid the b.s. You do not have to share all your thoughts or get personally involved with the people there. If they know your personal business, of course they will comment on it. Be discrete.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Can you come up with a Higher Power that works for you? Create your Higher Power to suit yourself. Some people say in AA it is the Group Of Drunks. That's all a Higher Power is - something outside of YOU/ME, something bigger than that seven inches between our ears.
This is a blog post here on SR by Badger1 - it eloquently captures one person's solution to the same problem. He looks at it from a scientific view:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...96-step-3.html
Also, I believe in the power of the Collective Consciousness. Humans have developed coping strategies over tens of thousands of years, and that is why we are such a successful species. Some worshipped the Sun. They passed that down to their ancestors. It has morphed into all types of beliefs - many different theologies. If you read religious texts, they pretty much all have the same basic message. Self-empowerment and peaceful existence. Helping others. We share knowledge and experience. We are pack animals, we need one another. That to me is a God consciousness. The power of God/Good in people; the desire to help others and to wish for their personal happiness. It is outside ourselves, so by definition is a Higher Power. It is not self-centered. That is the highest use of AA. The desire to see others succeed and the sharing of experience, strength, and hope.
Just keep meditating on it, and find kindred spirits in AA. You aren't going to click with everyone, and finding your people is the key. It is your sobriety. Do it the way it works for you.
This is a blog post here on SR by Badger1 - it eloquently captures one person's solution to the same problem. He looks at it from a scientific view:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...96-step-3.html
Also, I believe in the power of the Collective Consciousness. Humans have developed coping strategies over tens of thousands of years, and that is why we are such a successful species. Some worshipped the Sun. They passed that down to their ancestors. It has morphed into all types of beliefs - many different theologies. If you read religious texts, they pretty much all have the same basic message. Self-empowerment and peaceful existence. Helping others. We share knowledge and experience. We are pack animals, we need one another. That to me is a God consciousness. The power of God/Good in people; the desire to help others and to wish for their personal happiness. It is outside ourselves, so by definition is a Higher Power. It is not self-centered. That is the highest use of AA. The desire to see others succeed and the sharing of experience, strength, and hope.
Just keep meditating on it, and find kindred spirits in AA. You aren't going to click with everyone, and finding your people is the key. It is your sobriety. Do it the way it works for you.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dubai
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by CodeJob 
If I recall this Ireland trip is an absolutely amazing trip for a must attend wedding. What is your plan to stay out of the airport bar, the local bar, the hotel bar, the wedding reception bar, and every other corner bar? I have only been to Eire once and we ate lunch every day in a bar. I am not a drinker but even I was drinking pints of Guinness qd. Eire has a magic all it's own and you need a plan to avoid its charm.
I truly want to hear of your success on this trip Kiki - I'm an optimist - so figure it out.
As for airports, I love to read, so I'm going to sit in Starbucks with my green tea and my kindle. At the hotel, I'm going to get them to clear the mini-bar. I'm going to call some of my female friends during the week to explain to them that I have quit drinking and not to put pressure on me about it - and to pass the message to their boyfriends.
I have a lot of close friends that will be at this wedding but that I actually haven't seen in years as I live in Dubai and they live in the UK or Canada - so I'm really looking forward to seeing them and hoping that catching up with them individually will be fun.
As far as I know, there is a sum total of one other non-drinker going to the wedding, so I guess I will try to hang out with him a bit. I have looked up AA meetings in the city I'm going to be in, so I'll be going to them while I'm there too.
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
I can understand the frustration, and I think it is possible to end up in an AA group that leans heavily towards Christianity. I haven't experienced that because where I am, the interest in religion in general is waning and great care is taken to avoid overtly religious discussions.
Yes, the program is faith based. Yes it began with the Oxford group, (but, btw, the Oxford group was a reaction against organized religion). Yes the founders generally used Christian references and yes most of the founders were Christian.
However great care was taken to avoid having the program be tied to any particular religion. If this is happening in any groups, they are doing it WRONG.
Yes, of course, people in the program can mistakenly use it as an extension of their own religious preferences.
What to do? Bring it up at a business meeting and point out where specific religious preferences are being brought into the meetings agenda, they do not belong there.
Check out the traditions, find a service handbook and you will see that the traditions and guidelines in the handbook make it clear that there are no affiliations.
Yes, the program is faith based. Yes it began with the Oxford group, (but, btw, the Oxford group was a reaction against organized religion). Yes the founders generally used Christian references and yes most of the founders were Christian.
However great care was taken to avoid having the program be tied to any particular religion. If this is happening in any groups, they are doing it WRONG.
Yes, of course, people in the program can mistakenly use it as an extension of their own religious preferences.
What to do? Bring it up at a business meeting and point out where specific religious preferences are being brought into the meetings agenda, they do not belong there.
Check out the traditions, find a service handbook and you will see that the traditions and guidelines in the handbook make it clear that there are no affiliations.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Well done on your forward planning for the wedding - sounds like you've considered every angle. (Maybe keep your book with you on the wedding day as well - that way if you need a break you can lock yourself in the loo or somewhere quiet for a bit and read 'til you're feeling ready to join all the drunk people again).
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by kiki1988
I repeat, Step 7 PRAYER, serenity PRAYER, Step 3 PRAYER - references to Saints...
Today I sent my sponsor an email with the 12 steps for agnostics/atheists - basically just the 12 steps without reference to god but still referencing spirituality and a power outside yourself - I asked her if we could work from those instead.
She answered that I'm looking for differences and we should do the regular steps... AA constantly tell me to be open minded - so why can't they be open minded about doing a very slightly different version of the steps?
Today I sent my sponsor an email with the 12 steps for agnostics/atheists - basically just the 12 steps without reference to god but still referencing spirituality and a power outside yourself - I asked her if we could work from those instead.
She answered that I'm looking for differences and we should do the regular steps... AA constantly tell me to be open minded - so why can't they be open minded about doing a very slightly different version of the steps?
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ep-prayer.html
7th step prayer:
Agnostic AA 7th Step Commitment
When ready, we say something like this:
With honesty and openness, I am now willing to let others have all of me, good and bad. I seek help in eliminating every single fear and unhealthy defensive mechanism which limits me. In letting go, I gain strength to self care and be of service to others.
I would suggest goin through the chapter 'we agnostics" with your sponsor.heres a few lines from that chapter:
Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.
Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God.
When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you
We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.
Besides a seeming inability to accept much on faith,we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice. Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things made us bristle with antagonism.
why cant "they" be openminded to a different version? welp, theres many that have and are still sober.
theres also many that stick with the suggestions as they are in the big book and its workin for them,too. why fix what aint broke?
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
wow, lot's of deep stuff here. I'll use simple words. Like what works for you instead of modalities (thanks jaynie).
Just something I wish to share about AA. One group has certainly shunned me because I told someone I just cannot buy into to it completely - the whole powerless thing etc. - well most of it. Another group accepts me and 'allows' me to be a part of the group as long as I do what I must to stay sober. "Whatever works for you." Sure I stand in the circle while everyone recites the Lord's Prayer at every meeting. At first it bothered me. Now I do it as a show of support for those that believe in it. Whatever works for me. Whatever works for them. So as jaynie simply puts it, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You don't have to say anything, just show up and take it all in. Get what you need from it, leave the rest.
Reminds me of the scene from 'Midnight Express' when the main character starts walking the opposite way around the circle. He is attacked... Don't act out, just think it. Be comfortable in your own thinking.
Good luck on your trip. Hope you get a chance to see the country side.
Just something I wish to share about AA. One group has certainly shunned me because I told someone I just cannot buy into to it completely - the whole powerless thing etc. - well most of it. Another group accepts me and 'allows' me to be a part of the group as long as I do what I must to stay sober. "Whatever works for you." Sure I stand in the circle while everyone recites the Lord's Prayer at every meeting. At first it bothered me. Now I do it as a show of support for those that believe in it. Whatever works for me. Whatever works for them. So as jaynie simply puts it, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You don't have to say anything, just show up and take it all in. Get what you need from it, leave the rest.
Reminds me of the scene from 'Midnight Express' when the main character starts walking the opposite way around the circle. He is attacked... Don't act out, just think it. Be comfortable in your own thinking.
Good luck on your trip. Hope you get a chance to see the country side.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dubai
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by tomsteve
why cant "they" be openminded to a different version? welp, theres many that have and are still sober.
theres also many that stick with the suggestions as they are in the big book and its workin for them,too. why fix what aint broke?
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Originally Posted by kiki1988
I'm going to sit down this evening and plan activities for every day of my trip, so I don't get bored etc. My dad is in the programme and I know he'll be encouraging me to continue with meetings daily, which will help.
At the hotel, I'm going to get them to clear the mini-bar. I'm going to call some of my female friends during the week to explain to them that I have quit drinking and not to put pressure on me about it - and to pass the message to their boyfriends.
As far as I know, there is a sum total of one other non-drinker going to the wedding, so I guess I will try to hang out with him a bit. I have looked up AA meetings in the city I'm going to be in, so I'll be going to them while I'm there too.
At the hotel, I'm going to get them to clear the mini-bar. I'm going to call some of my female friends during the week to explain to them that I have quit drinking and not to put pressure on me about it - and to pass the message to their boyfriends.
As far as I know, there is a sum total of one other non-drinker going to the wedding, so I guess I will try to hang out with him a bit. I have looked up AA meetings in the city I'm going to be in, so I'll be going to them while I'm there too.
I believe in you, Kiki, and I believe you've got this one. This makes you a certified badass btw. Well done.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Before we say the prayer at the meetings I go to they say that we are using the term God to stand for whatever we see as our higher power. When I say the serenity prayer, I am meditating on the fellowship of the AA helping me find serenity in accepting things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
I don't see that as being dishonest, so I can live with it.
It seems from your posts that there is a lot of negative energy for you around the Christian background of the AA. The background can't change. It's past. Using the HALT system really helped me get through the last couple of months, and if AA is making you angry generally, then this can't be good for your sobriety.
The man who's had the slip up's may well have had these due to social gatherings - he's not necessarily saying YOU'LL fail. He's trying to help you learn from his experience. That's what AA is all about. Learning from each other. And like all advice, you can use it or choose to ignore it. You're not a child, so that's your choice. The thing is that the anger won't help you in your sobriety. It is hard to get past it, but it'll make life much easier if you can.
Take care.
I don't see that as being dishonest, so I can live with it.
It seems from your posts that there is a lot of negative energy for you around the Christian background of the AA. The background can't change. It's past. Using the HALT system really helped me get through the last couple of months, and if AA is making you angry generally, then this can't be good for your sobriety.
The man who's had the slip up's may well have had these due to social gatherings - he's not necessarily saying YOU'LL fail. He's trying to help you learn from his experience. That's what AA is all about. Learning from each other. And like all advice, you can use it or choose to ignore it. You're not a child, so that's your choice. The thing is that the anger won't help you in your sobriety. It is hard to get past it, but it'll make life much easier if you can.
Take care.
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