Tolerance and kindling - Why alcoholics can't drink normally again
Member
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by least 
I got sober for good 8 yrs ago and my brain is now working right again. I get great pleasure from ordinary things, like walking my dogs or waking up feeling good.
I don't miss drinking at all as it brought me nothing but misery.
I don't miss drinking at all as it brought me nothing but misery.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,451
Briansy you may find that some of the people in this thread are no longer around to answer.
For me it took me years to get back to a 'brain working right' level, tho in my case things were complicated with mini strokes.
The point is...we can and do heal - as long as we stop ingesting poison.
I don't believe that healing will make me a born again normal drinker.
D
For me it took me years to get back to a 'brain working right' level, tho in my case things were complicated with mini strokes.
The point is...we can and do heal - as long as we stop ingesting poison.
I don't believe that healing will make me a born again normal drinker.
D
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,784
Originally Posted by Briansy
How long did it take to achieve this?
And it wasn't something I "achieved", but rather worked on every day. The main reason for my serenity is due to practicing gratitude. I stopped feeling the desire to drink when I chose to be thankful for all I was blessed with.
On the contrary, when I was drinking I felt only one emotion: despair.
It is now that I'm functioning normally I am much better able to feel joy and hope.You seem to look at sobriety as a 'deprivation' rather than a positive experience. I don't see it that way anymore. I have a better life sober than I ever had drinking.
My capacity to feel joy is best expressed by the overwhelming joy I feel every time I look at my old dog Jack. It's the same overwhelming joy I felt when I found him last year, after being lost for 20 days.
My joy literally made me feel like I was walking on air, I was so happy. No Dogma Please
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,562
Originally Posted by Briansy
OK, so these GABA pathways are not just relevant to those that wanto to drink or are drinking etc - they are also relevant to anyone wanting to seek the best form of natural high from any pleasurable, non-illicit activity - are you saying that you have massively inhibited your ability to derive joy from such things even when sober? Or is your point that you will no longer really be able to enjoy boozing unless it's at a seriously excessive level. I'd like to know as the former is too depressing to even contemplate.
As far as natural pleasure, this is more tied to the dopamine pleasure and reward centers than GABA. Stimulants hit these neurotransmitter dopamine pathways, which is why cocaine gives such a feel-good rush.
It's directly hitting the pleasure pathway. The withdrawal from cocaine, meth and party stimulants like MDMA is not so much physical as mental, and anhedonia is a VERY common symptom. Heavy meth use tends to "burn out" the pleasure pathways to the point that they may never fully recover.
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Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by MindfulMan
Pleasure from any activity, licit or illicit, is more based on other neurotransmitters than GABA. GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter that keeps the brakes on your nervous system. Alcohol, benzos and other sedatives do the same, only more effectively, so the natural GABA systems downregulate in the presence of sedatives. Take away the sedatives and BOOM, your nervous system goes into overdrive with not enough inhibitory neurotransmit it to slow it down. Result? Tremor, vomiting, sweating, hallucinations, fever/overheating, blood pressure spikes, etc. As the receptors slowly begin to come back, function slowly returns to normal. It can take quite a long time, a year or longer. Unfortunately every time this happens the neurotransmitter downregulation occurs it happens faster and more completely, hence kindling, and hence withdrawals getting worse and worse. And no, you never go back to just a "normal" hangover.
As far as natural pleasure, this is more tied to the dopamine pleasure and reward centers than GABA. Stimulants hit these neurotransmitter dopamine pathways, which is why cocaine gives such a feel-good rush.
It's directly hitting the pleasure pathway. The withdrawal from cocaine, meth and party stimulants like MDMA is not so much physical as mental, and anhedonia is a VERY common symptom. Heavy meth use tends to "burn out" the pleasure pathways to the point that they may never fully recover.
As far as natural pleasure, this is more tied to the dopamine pleasure and reward centers than GABA. Stimulants hit these neurotransmitter dopamine pathways, which is why cocaine gives such a feel-good rush.
It's directly hitting the pleasure pathway. The withdrawal from cocaine, meth and party stimulants like MDMA is not so much physical as mental, and anhedonia is a VERY common symptom. Heavy meth use tends to "burn out" the pleasure pathways to the point that they may never fully recover.
I play a lot of golf and enjoy running. And those certainly give me pleasure. So I think there is hope for me yet!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 228
It's good to see that this thread is still alive after so much time. I quit drinking over six years ago and managed to stay sober for a few years. Long story short, I started drinking socially once again because I felt that I could drink responsibly, and now I'm finding myself in a 10-day withdrawal period once again. Four beers one night followed by as single Margarita two nights later was all it took. Needless to say, I should've listened to the advice of others.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,246
Welcome back....sorry to hear about the withdrawal, I know how scary it can get. Hope you seek support here and keep posting. Two years sober was great going, no reason you can't do it again if that is what you want.
Support to you.
Support to you.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 228
Originally Posted by DarklingSong
Welcome back....sorry to hear about the withdrawal, I know how scary it can get. Hope you seek support here and keep posting. Two years sober was great going, no reason you can't do it again if that is what you want.
Support to you.
Support to you.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Mayland
Posts: 80
I've recently figured this out. I'm new to SR. I was sober for 6 months, worked out, felt great, had my life relatively in order. I totally thought I could handle 1 or 2 drinks out with my friends. 6 months later here I am 2 days sober off a pretty big bender. I'm not a person who can drink 1 or 2 drinks. It's not in the cards for me. I'm so glad I've realized this. Now I have stick to it. For myself and my family.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5,171
Originally Posted by Geralt
Recently I have read some comments here from new members that want to quit drinking for a couple of months/years and then try to drink responsibly again.
Well, I have to disappoint you (but believe me this is a blessing in disguise), that's not possible for 99% of us.
The cause is the progressive nature of the disease alcoholism and the mechanisms of tolerance and kindling.
Every withdrawal is worse than the previous one and each time you drink you will need more alcohol for the same effect. There is no way to reverse it, not a couple of months or years.
I wish I had understood this earlier, instead of binge drinking the last decade away. Over the years I forced myself into thinking that my alcohol consumption was a matter of strong will, persistence or control. I had to "master" the art of moderation and become a happy 1-2 drinks person.
But my body had already changed. Due to the effect of tolerance there was no happiness after 1-2 drinks, my nervous system screamed for more. And after that first drink, I was already powerless over alcohol and would drink more, more... till black-out. Good morning shakes, anxiety, thirst and welcome to the effect of kindling. The hangovers became acute withdrawals.
Actually it's quite silly. Someone with diabetes doesn't have an issue of "strong will" with sugar, neither someone with peanut allergy. So why do we keep fooling ourselves that our alcohol consumption is a matter of mind?
Accept that you can't ever drink again and it will be a lot easier.
Well, I have to disappoint you (but believe me this is a blessing in disguise), that's not possible for 99% of us.
The cause is the progressive nature of the disease alcoholism and the mechanisms of tolerance and kindling.
Every withdrawal is worse than the previous one and each time you drink you will need more alcohol for the same effect. There is no way to reverse it, not a couple of months or years.
I wish I had understood this earlier, instead of binge drinking the last decade away. Over the years I forced myself into thinking that my alcohol consumption was a matter of strong will, persistence or control. I had to "master" the art of moderation and become a happy 1-2 drinks person.
But my body had already changed. Due to the effect of tolerance there was no happiness after 1-2 drinks, my nervous system screamed for more. And after that first drink, I was already powerless over alcohol and would drink more, more... till black-out. Good morning shakes, anxiety, thirst and welcome to the effect of kindling. The hangovers became acute withdrawals.
Actually it's quite silly. Someone with diabetes doesn't have an issue of "strong will" with sugar, neither someone with peanut allergy. So why do we keep fooling ourselves that our alcohol consumption is a matter of mind?
Accept that you can't ever drink again and it will be a lot easier.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 59
Good post, I hadn't heard of kindling before.
I never used to get hangovers, normally, unless I drank more than 12 or 14 beers. I drank regularly, though I would have started as a binge drinker back in my teens/20s.
what' the difference between a hangover and withdrawal for those who binge drink on weekends?
I never used to get hangovers, normally, unless I drank more than 12 or 14 beers. I drank regularly, though I would have started as a binge drinker back in my teens/20s.
what' the difference between a hangover and withdrawal for those who binge drink on weekends?
Walk on
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 68
To the OP; very good post and good to read. Yes it's a physical thing and once it's turned into an addiction those pathways will ALWAYS remain in the brain; they are just dormant. One drink will begin the inflammation process in those areas and those pathways of addiction start up again. Funnily enough they have been trying out giving anti-inflammation drugs to alcoholics with some positive results.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
Posts: 785
Originally Posted by Torii
Good post, I hadn't heard of kindling before.
I never used to get hangovers, normally, unless I drank more than 12 or 14 beers. I drank regularly, though I would have started as a binge drinker back in my teens/20s.
what' the difference between a hangover and withdrawal for those who binge drink on weekends?
I never used to get hangovers, normally, unless I drank more than 12 or 14 beers. I drank regularly, though I would have started as a binge drinker back in my teens/20s.
what' the difference between a hangover and withdrawal for those who binge drink on weekends?
A hangover is a healthy brain's reaction to being poisoned with alcohol.
Withdrawal is an addicted brain's reaction to being deprived of alcohol.
The time it takes to "graduate" from hangovers to withdrawal varies with the individual, the amount of alcohol, and the frequency of drinking, among many other factors.
Sometimes (as in my case), there's a "grace period" during which the drinker suffers neither hangovers or withdrawals, giving the false impression of immunity from the consequences of drinking.
Grace periods always expire, though.
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