Tolerance and kindling - Why alcoholics can't drink normally again
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 291
adding my thanks for this post, I have experienced exactly what you described but I did not know what it was, not long ago I had been sober for about 4 days and after having 4 beers I had terrible withdrawal, I could not understand what was going on, now I do
I really needed to hear this
I really needed to hear this
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Montana
Posts: 151
Same here. I didn't understand that after weeks of being sober that a six pack could produce such terrible withdrawl symptoms in me. Racing heart. Dangerous blood pressure etc. not something I want to go back to. Add to that my extremely high tolerance to sedatives and I'm your poster boy and I got the t-shirt. But I'm tossing it out.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Somewhere on the East Coast
Posts: 579
Needed this today. I hope the OP is still around and can see everyone's recent thanks to an older thread!
I had the same experience and it was so confusing...I cldn't understand how my hangovers now were SOOO much worse. Terrible.
I had the same experience and it was so confusing...I cldn't understand how my hangovers now were SOOO much worse. Terrible.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 316
Bump!
I think somewhere in the back of my mind I thought I would be able to drink again.... somewhere in the far off future. Like when I hit 40 or the day my daughter graduates college (20+years down the road). This is a reminder that I NEVER want to feel how I felt during the first 2 months of sobriety... NO DRINK is worth it.
I think somewhere in the back of my mind I thought I would be able to drink again.... somewhere in the far off future. Like when I hit 40 or the day my daughter graduates college (20+years down the road). This is a reminder that I NEVER want to feel how I felt during the first 2 months of sobriety... NO DRINK is worth it.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 172
It is physiological as was as psychological. A full blown alcoholic has blown the GABA pathways, feed back loop wide open. Those don't ever shut again so large amounts of alcoholic or any GABA drug will be needed to activate or stimulate that pleasure center at a level out bodies and minds desire.
The mu receptors are a but different for opiate addicts. Those a really reset to some degree, but not so with the alcoholic and GABA. Alcohol abuse is preformed dive and it never completely resets. That is why we quickly begin when we left off even after long periods of abstinence. In short, we screwed.
The mu receptors are a but different for opiate addicts. Those a really reset to some degree, but not so with the alcoholic and GABA. Alcohol abuse is preformed dive and it never completely resets. That is why we quickly begin when we left off even after long periods of abstinence. In short, we screwed.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
Posts: 785
Originally Posted by Roxyblues 
It is physiological as was as psychological. A full blown alcoholic has blown the GABA pathways, feed back loop wide open. Those don't ever shut again so large amounts of alcoholic or any GABA drug will be needed to activate or stimulate that pleasure center at a level out bodies and minds desire.
The mu receptors are a but different for opiate addicts. Those a really reset to some degree, but not so with the alcoholic and GABA. Alcohol abuse is preformed dive and it never completely resets. That is why we quickly begin when we left off even after long periods of abstinence. In short, we screwed.
The mu receptors are a but different for opiate addicts. Those a really reset to some degree, but not so with the alcoholic and GABA. Alcohol abuse is preformed dive and it never completely resets. That is why we quickly begin when we left off even after long periods of abstinence. In short, we screwed.
I do wish the post had been proofread a bit better. "Alcohol abuse is preformed dive"? I can't suss out what this was meant to say.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 193
Originally Posted by Roxyblues
It is physiological as was as psychological. A full blown alcoholic has blown the GABA pathways, feed back loop wide open. Those don't ever shut again so large amounts of alcoholic or any GABA drug will be needed to activate or stimulate that pleasure center at a level out bodies and minds desire.
The mu receptors are a but different for opiate addicts. Those a really reset to some degree, but not so with the alcoholic and GABA. Alcohol abuse is preformed dive and it never completely resets. That is why we quickly begin when we left off even after long periods of abstinence. In short, we screwed.
The mu receptors are a but different for opiate addicts. Those a really reset to some degree, but not so with the alcoholic and GABA. Alcohol abuse is preformed dive and it never completely resets. That is why we quickly begin when we left off even after long periods of abstinence. In short, we screwed.
I already do get low moods a lot, just mildly enough that I feel like I'm constantly wearing damp clothes, but only slightly damp....but over the years, that really gets to you. I get reprieves of happiness, joy, calmness....these are usually during sober times. So maybe not all hope is lost.
I have been trying passionflower and apparently that helps with GABA somehow. I worry that my brain will always be so low that I will never feel quite ok. But looking back even on the last year, I do know that I can feel happy without alcohol, at least for a time.
This makes me want to not damage my brain any further. I don't to get stuck even further in that hole. I want to feed my brain healthy things, and build it up as well as I possibly can. Thank you for this post. It helps to remind me of yet another reason why I don't want to drink.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 561
Hope for brain healing
Not to argue but I've read a lot of research stating the opposite about brain damage from alcohol being reversible with continued abstinence. I keep looking for the academic research articles that found this result after scientific experiments on longterm heavy drinkers.
I'll post when I find it!
I'll post when I find it!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: illinois
Posts: 907
As a professional grade binge drinker, I believe kindling was what brought my bottom to me. In my 20's and early 30's I could party pretty hard and (for the most part) behave well while doing so. Then the hangovers started getting worse and WORSE. my inability to cope with things while withdrawing, and extreme anxiety level led me to problem solve. -enter morning after drinking, and as needed self medication with benzos and opiates. D I S A S T E R.
The right decision would have been to stop drinking when the side effects outweighed the benefits.
Oh well, the end result turned out ok. Not as early as I now would have liked... But, I still count myself among the lucky.
The right decision would have been to stop drinking when the side effects outweighed the benefits.
Oh well, the end result turned out ok. Not as early as I now would have liked... But, I still count myself among the lucky.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: canada
Posts: 748
Glad this got bumped. This would explain why after I relapsed and started drinking "moderately" that my limit of 2 shots of vodka per evening still made me feel awful the next day. Not a full blown hangover but still not fun.
I'd like to comment on the concern about not being able to experience pleasure in relation to the "full-blown alcoholic" and "permanently open GABA pathways". I'm not a scientist and don't know how these terms are defined, but in my experience I have found that in sober living I can now feel pleasure that I previously thought was only available through alcohol or drugs. It didn't happen overnight, but it's thrilling to feel great and know it won't come at the cost of feeling awful later.
I'd like to comment on the concern about not being able to experience pleasure in relation to the "full-blown alcoholic" and "permanently open GABA pathways". I'm not a scientist and don't know how these terms are defined, but in my experience I have found that in sober living I can now feel pleasure that I previously thought was only available through alcohol or drugs. It didn't happen overnight, but it's thrilling to feel great and know it won't come at the cost of feeling awful later.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by Andante
This is an important post in an important thread. The physiological aspects of potential permanent brain damage due to long-term alcohol abuse are too often overlooked, IMHO. The explanation of the GABA feedback loop being "blown wide open" describes my experience to a T. After more than 2-1/2 years sober, I'm still mostly unable to feel much of a sense of passion, joy, or well-being, and it definitely seems to be more a physiological phenomenon than a psychological or "spiritual" one.
I do wish the post had been proofread a bit better. "Alcohol abuse is preformed dive"? I can't suss out what this was meant to say.
I do wish the post had been proofread a bit better. "Alcohol abuse is preformed dive"? I can't suss out what this was meant to say.
Just trying to say that alcohol abuse in the GABA pathways is completely different than opiate abuse hitting the mu receptors.
Joy, however, can be had even with GABA completely messed up. I have blown my GABAs out of the water with horrible Ambien abuse (10 a day), benzos and phenibut. Exercise, healthy dirt, yoga, meditation and recovering spiritually will all help reduce the stress level and provide one a sense of well being.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by SportsFan15
Not to argue but I've read a lot of research stating the opposite about brain damage from alcohol being reversible with continued abstinence. I keep looking for the academic research articles that found this result after scientific experiments on longterm heavy drinkers.
I'll post when I find it!
I'll post when I find it!
Lol, I am just passing on knowledge from my over 10 treatment "vacations" in 7 different states and 3 different countries. Call it free access without the $$$ and time away from home. I have had the best treatment and docs money could buy.
The brain will heal in time. Short term memory, long term memory, cognitive function, reasoning, analytical skills and etc. should return. Those pathways I speak of, however, will stay open even after the above returns.
If an alcoholic is drinking 750 ml of vodka a day, stops for 5 years and starts back up again, that same alcoholic will be right back at 750 ml a day or more within days.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by Layali
This partly makes me incredibly depressed, but partly gives me motivation....I was already depressed before I started drinking. I'm only on day 2 of sobriety (AGAIN) and so I feel really down. But judging from how I felt that one time I went 4 months sober, I know that I haven't completely blown it, perhaps (this sober stretch was just this last winter/spring). I really hope I haven't done too much damage since then.
I already do get low moods a lot, just mildly enough that I feel like I'm constantly wearing damp clothes, but only slightly damp....but over the years, that really gets to you. I get reprieves of happiness, joy, calmness....these are usually during sober times. So maybe not all hope is lost.
I have been trying passionflower and apparently that helps with GABA somehow. I worry that my brain will always be so low that I will never feel quite ok. But looking back even on the last year, I do know that I can feel happy without alcohol, at least for a time.
This makes me want to not damage my brain any further. I don't to get stuck even further in that hole. I want to feed my brain healthy things, and build it up as well as I possibly can. Thank you for this post. It helps to remind me of yet another reason why I don't want to drink.
I already do get low moods a lot, just mildly enough that I feel like I'm constantly wearing damp clothes, but only slightly damp....but over the years, that really gets to you. I get reprieves of happiness, joy, calmness....these are usually during sober times. So maybe not all hope is lost.
I have been trying passionflower and apparently that helps with GABA somehow. I worry that my brain will always be so low that I will never feel quite ok. But looking back even on the last year, I do know that I can feel happy without alcohol, at least for a time.
This makes me want to not damage my brain any further. I don't to get stuck even further in that hole. I want to feed my brain healthy things, and build it up as well as I possibly can. Thank you for this post. It helps to remind me of yet another reason why I don't want to drink.
I fell happy, joy, peace and content right now, but I am hitting 1 to 2 meetings a day, working the steps, meditating, and doing cardio and weights 6 days a week.
If you do nothing to treat your alcoholism, you will be miserable when you remove alcohol from the equation. This is not a GABA pathway problem. This is an untreated alcoholism problem.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 561
The more I read I understand what you're talking about Roxy.
This isn't exactly it but is related....reassuring to us who are experiencing these symptoms during recovery, from Huffington Post:
“It turns out that there [is] a whole host of wiring that actually gets worse in the next four to eight weeks.” One of these is cue-induced stress response—people in early recovery are more responsive than non-addicts to stress surrounding people, places, and things that remind them of using. This measurable increase in symptoms of stress is the “physical evidence of craving,” Sack says. Cue-induced stress responses get worse over time and seem to peak between 4 and 8 weeks; the intensity of how much stress addicts feel correlates to relapse, he says. Unfortunately, this peak in stress or craving is typically the time when people leave treatment facilities—“we’re sending people out when this is getting worse.”
The second thing that gets worse is that addicts experience increased impulsivity. Studies have shown that first, addicts continue to make more mistakes than non-addicts when trying to learn how to do things differently, and second, they tend to continue to put less value in future, or distant, rewards, Sack says.
Finally, addicts continue to experience a loss of working memory—they have trouble remembering the things that they’re supposed to do. This is more the case for alcohol and benzodiazepine withdrawal than for opiates, he says.
The biggest thing Sack’s seen in his patients is increased anxiety. People are “more nervous, more anxious, less resilient; and that anxiety is experienced as fear, as uncertainty, a greater sensitivity to rejection.” Some of this excessive reactivity is linked to the glutamate neurotransmitter system, as many drugs of abuse block glutamate. In response, the body ups its production of this chemical, even after the drug is taken away.
This emotional reactivity can be seen with people who abuse opiates, too, and it can be referred to as hyperalgesia. “When people are on pain meds for a long time, their tolerance for pain and discomfort goes down,” Hazelden’s Lee says. This applies to psychological and emotional pain as well, he says.
This isn't exactly it but is related....reassuring to us who are experiencing these symptoms during recovery, from Huffington Post:
“It turns out that there [is] a whole host of wiring that actually gets worse in the next four to eight weeks.” One of these is cue-induced stress response—people in early recovery are more responsive than non-addicts to stress surrounding people, places, and things that remind them of using. This measurable increase in symptoms of stress is the “physical evidence of craving,” Sack says. Cue-induced stress responses get worse over time and seem to peak between 4 and 8 weeks; the intensity of how much stress addicts feel correlates to relapse, he says. Unfortunately, this peak in stress or craving is typically the time when people leave treatment facilities—“we’re sending people out when this is getting worse.”
The second thing that gets worse is that addicts experience increased impulsivity. Studies have shown that first, addicts continue to make more mistakes than non-addicts when trying to learn how to do things differently, and second, they tend to continue to put less value in future, or distant, rewards, Sack says.
Finally, addicts continue to experience a loss of working memory—they have trouble remembering the things that they’re supposed to do. This is more the case for alcohol and benzodiazepine withdrawal than for opiates, he says.
The biggest thing Sack’s seen in his patients is increased anxiety. People are “more nervous, more anxious, less resilient; and that anxiety is experienced as fear, as uncertainty, a greater sensitivity to rejection.” Some of this excessive reactivity is linked to the glutamate neurotransmitter system, as many drugs of abuse block glutamate. In response, the body ups its production of this chemical, even after the drug is taken away.
This emotional reactivity can be seen with people who abuse opiates, too, and it can be referred to as hyperalgesia. “When people are on pain meds for a long time, their tolerance for pain and discomfort goes down,” Hazelden’s Lee says. This applies to psychological and emotional pain as well, he says.
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