Terminally Unique

The RR book is self-contained, and you can learn AVRT from that alone. The DVD set, while very nicely done, is not really necessary, but some people don't like to read, apparently. The RR forums are for people like myself who were a little slow and needed a swift kick in the rear. They pull no punches in the forums, and there isn't any of this "support" stuff going on. It's a little scary to post, but they'll screw your head on straight right quick, though.

Terminally Unique

This is incorrect, Itchy, but since you were trained in REBT, you'll be able to follow what I am saying. There is a reason that the REBT folks split off from Rational Recovery and started SMART recovery when AVRT finally matured.

AVRT violates practically all of the REBT axioms. There is the absolutist perfectionism (ie, the Big Plan), recognizing the Beast as a rational entity, as opposed to an irrational belief, the (I/It) split, and finally, the concept of moral judgment.

In REBT, nothing is ever just plain wrong, in the moral sense, whereas in AVRT, the addictive voice is an immoral proposition. Also, with AVRT, you don't change your thinking or dispute it, as with REBT. Instead, you recognize the addictive voice, and then you objectify it as ego-alien (not you).

I have watched taped REBT sessions with addicted people conducted by Albert Ellis, as well as taped AVRT sessions, and read books on the subject, and they are worlds apart. There was a debate between Albert Ellis and Jack Trimpey in 1994, and Ellis acknowledged that AVRT is indeed a separate discipline. Since he invented REBT, he should know.

Itchy

TU,
Perhaps this will ring a bell for you too. To get to C, I don't go from A directly to C. I filter it as you do through B, my beliefs. If they are irrational then my behavior and view of the stimulus will be irrational, as will my response usually learned. And thanks for validating the similarities. I don't do SMART or RET anymore either.

I consider anything that proposes to hear voices as irrational to begin with. I believe that I am sober because I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Drinking and being an alcoholic were my simple bad behaviors and a serious addiction. I dealt with it and the premise that I needed to learn morality and who I am all over again was wrong with most of the recovery "BOOKS" for me. You see I wasn't in trouble with alcohol until after several retirements the first at 45. My problem with alcohol came because I could and did drink anytime I pleased. I had a chemical problem.

But that isn't where the premise about me and many others of all the traditional groups and splinter groups of splinter groups fails. You see for folks who drank most of their lives away or who never learned the basics of morality at an early age, or never got an education and were never challenged by real death as well as life, and missed that formation of knowledge and values and put them to use in a successful life and marriage, before being a drunk, will most definitely need to examine their inner selves and some of them also fit my outside situation as well. Unfortunately maturity doesn't always come with age.

All that to say that I am not engaging. I was an eclectic counselor, as I am in all of my beliefs having read all the great works of philosophy and religion before I was 18, and not from school or parents. Then studying psychology and several other disciplines and working in each. I made a bad error in judgment and got hooked. I got a medical detox and never drank or smoked again.

I am not up for argument, discussion, or clarification of anything. Others are different. YMMV.

But I am so glad you are sober TU! Just like me! :ghug3

Terminally Unique

It does indeed, because I am familiar with REBT, and how addiction is interpreted through the lens of REBT. Whereas REBT views addiction as an irrational belief, or as a symptom of irrational beliefs, AVRT views the Beast (addictive desire) as a rational entity.

Precisely. AVRT is not "rational" by the REBT definition. It is entirely irrational.

Itchy

I was editing when you replied and then I saw I did need the clarification by your answer. Before I saw your post I added this
"And thanks for validating the similarities. I don't do SMART or RET anymore either."

TU I don't have a dog in your fight.

Terminally Unique

No fight, Itchy. I am just aware that other people may be reading our posts, and some may be wondering what the difference between REBT and AVRT is. I appreciate the feedback.

Itchy

I don't think it matters at all really TU. RET, AVRT, and AA all have folks that each is tailor made for. I did not nor ever mean that it is irrational for all. It is just not my cup of tea. Neither was most of AA. But I drew much from my little group twice a week for three months.

Bear in mind I quit drinking and detoxed before I joined AA or here. That was two weeks later. I also quit the 28 day rehab in day three because it was not what I needed at all. Never relapsed once but went and found the bits and parts that worked. Mostly my love of my fellow man.

I guess by my track record I am just a quitter who quits for good, whatever I quit.

Mark75

Wow, interesting, thanx TU and Itchy.

So, there is a morality to AVRT, the AV is morally bad, in REBT, no judgement is made. Did I get that right?

Zencat

The ultimate responsibility for me is what actions do I choose with regards to alcohol. It is my sole responsibility whether I pick up a drink or not. I can choose to explain my actions from a vast selection of causes. Like someone did me wrong so now I'm going to get drunk or alternatively known as what I call excuses to get drunk. Or I can let my actions speak for themselves and simply accept unequivocally that I am the author of my actions.

Terminally Unique

Since the AV will invariably try to argue that there is nothing wrong with drinking, nothing wrong at all, AVRT identifies this as a key problem, and intentionally restores the moral axis of addiction. In AVRT, addiction is indeed a moral issue, and assuming you have decided that drinking is wrong for you, the AV becomes an immoral proposition. This makes it very conspicuous, and very easy to recognize.

In REBT, morality is irrational, nothing is ever wrong, and the name of the game is guilt reduction. This article from the REBT network should give you a nice example of how morality, guilt, right and wrong, etc, are viewed through REBT. Try replacing "slept with Tom" with "drove drunk and ran over Tom" in the example to get an idea of how it might play out with drinking.

The Good News About Bad Behavior

Mark75

I find this fascinating, thanx TU. I read that link.

In AA I was able to take inventory and begin to understand and work through whatever guilt and shame I experienced as a result of the consequences of my behavior. Make amends, move on and work on the changes I needed to make. Humility, but not humiliation.

REBT seems to take different approach. I have no experience with it.

How does AVRT approach the guilt and shame attached to the consequences of succumbing to the AV?

Itchy

Mark I can't speak to REBT, as I already said I was using only a part of it back in the 80's when it was called RET. I can't speak to any evolutions or splits and splinter groups. All the cosmic conciousness in the world won't help if you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to quit.

Sorry but for me, I don't hear voices, don't need steps, while others may, and I don't begrudge them that at all. It's when they start sppouting off at me that I ask them to leave politely, if my home. All of the problems in the world come from thinking as Flip Wilson used to say back in the day "The devil made me do it!"

I am fully accountable for my behaviors. I found no beasts and heard no voices. If there was any fault it was mine not a second or third party. I loved it when it was voluntary and not so much when it became mandatory. Which is my way of saying I did it, not a voice in my head and not an anthropomorphized substance. My body was addicted and my health was slipping and I could not easily quit until I realized all I had to do was quit with a little help from my friends, the Docs and nurses on the ward I detoxed on. That got me off the dependence physically. I already decided emotionally and intellectually that I was through. And I was. And since then I am telling everybody to do it all. AA AVRT, SMART, Counseling, definitely their personal Docs, and family and friends. I don't care who knows I quit drinking because I liked it a little too much. When I pull out my change two large brass coins are in there. One is my unit coin from the military given to me by my guys when I retired. The other is my 1 year AA coin.

They both are two sides of the same coin. One is where I started drinking too much in war. The other the end of my drinking. All neat and tidy in my left pocket.

It was hard and my PAWS was horrific for a few months. Don't get me wrong. And my folks here at SR helped pulled me through along with my friends in my AA home group, my Docs, and my wife and grown sons, and my friends who stood by me.

I try to stay away from folks thumping their book, be it the Big book, the AVRT book, or the good book. Rituals beget hate groups. I have even seen recovery hate group websites. Even hate group people have to quit sometimes too. So they will make it suit them.

It seems in threads like these everybody thinks their way is "THE WAY." I say leave the beasts and voices to others, let's get sober and hang together without pointing out the mote in the eye of another. I am glad my little AA group thought enough of my sobriety to encourage me to continue, not back up and take some unneeded steps because that is how it is "supposed" to be done according to the book.

Sapling

You know Itchy...I'm happy for you...That you could get sober on your own...Grabbing a little here and there worked for you and that's great. For myself....I couldn't stop like that....I tried enough times....I needed those "unneeded steps"....And I needed to do them like the people that wrote the book laid them out.....Not everybody has the willpower to do it like you did Itchy...And I'm one of them. I'm not sure what kind of message you're trying to carry....But I have to wonder if your little AA group would agree with it.

Boleo

I am the first to admit that AVRT makes more sense. But then again, nothing that made sense ever helped me stay sober for more than a few months.

The one thing I do know is that if "Stopping drinking makes life get better" is a AVRT premise, it never would have worked for me. My life got worse every I time I stopped drinking.

Mark75

If it seems that I am arguing, or fighting, or whatever, I am not trying to.

Terminally Unique

It strips you bare of any and all excuses for drinking, such as 'coping' and 'dealing', reboots your moral conscience, and leaves you in a securely abstinent state, for better or for worse. Guilt is not viewed as bad in AVRT, because it can propel you to snap out of the downward spiral, and to change accordingly. AVRT has no formal amends process, but it doesn't really need one.

You take full personal responsibility, not only for all the bad stuff you did while drinking, but also for drinking in the first place, and you can't explain it away with 'issues' or a disease. If someone asks why you got drunk over and over again, you can't tell them that the Beast, or the AV, made you do it, either. The guilt, along with a working moral conscience, will usually bring about any necessary changes.

Yes, AVRT stings. Big Time.

Mark75

Of course...

It probably stings big time for all of us, no matter AVRT, AA, whatever. "Working moral conscience." Check.

Terminally Unique

You've posted before about how you think AVRT is a "the devil made me do it" kind of thing, but it is not. The Beast is just the physical desire to get drunk or high, but it is still a part of you, and you are fully responsible for everything you do. As for your remarks about 'voices', the addictive voice is just an expression of addictive desire (the Beast), in your mind's eye and ear. You know, those pictures of a cold one on the beach, for example.

We all hear voices and see pictures in our heads, Itchy. It is how human beings operate. I am certain that you are hearing what you perceive to be the sound of my voice in your mind's ear as you read this very sentence, for example.

LosingmyMisery

Today, I choose not to drink. I don't want to drink and I don't miss it. I have the power to make that decision due to working on my recovery. There was a time I lost my choice. I lost my choice due to the addiction of alcohol. After drinking 36 bottles of wine, in nine days, including guzzling a fifth a vodka in a matter of minutes, I lost the choice. My body was addicted and my mind was obsessed with the next drink. My body shook, my head was in a fog and my stomach rebelled. I paced like a caged animal trying to stop. I would have done anything to get the next drink. I needed the booze to function in the slightest way. Without it, I was rendered physically and mentally incapacitated.

I had an at home controlled detox. If I hadn't of had help, I don't know what I would have done. I probably would have died from alcohol poisoning. After a while you lose the power of choice. Maybe it is a difficult concept to grasp if you've never experienced it, but if you have...you may understand losing the power of choice or being powerless of the choice. Today, the choice is mine. In the throes of addiction, not so much. The good news...there is a solution.

ReadyAndAble

"The Beast" and "the voice" are words, Itchy, just a way to objectify desire and separate "me" from my addiction. And I really don't think I've ever taken less than 100% responsibility for my past drinking.

I have a confession: sometimes I assign my fellow SR members accents. Or the voices of movie stars. John Wayne... the Three Stooges.. it really depends on my mood.