confused: avrt vs aa
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 1,180
AVRT is a fit for me. It works perfectly and feels right.
At the same time, I will fully admit that I have a profound curiosity about AA - mostly just to try and understand it better. I think I was guilty of dismissing it out of hand without understanding it better.
With AVRT I am simply a non-drinker. I don't attend meetings. I don't work a 12 step program. I don't have a disease. I'm not even an alcoholic. I am simply a person that has decided that drinking alcohol is not for me.
AA is a different experience and would seem to be preferable to some. It is a fellowship - a club if you will. It is face to face support with regular meetings. The 12 steps would seem to enforce a fundamental change to the way you live your life. There is a spiritual or religious aspect to AA that is significant.
At the same time, I will fully admit that I have a profound curiosity about AA - mostly just to try and understand it better. I think I was guilty of dismissing it out of hand without understanding it better.
With AVRT I am simply a non-drinker. I don't attend meetings. I don't work a 12 step program. I don't have a disease. I'm not even an alcoholic. I am simply a person that has decided that drinking alcohol is not for me.
AA is a different experience and would seem to be preferable to some. It is a fellowship - a club if you will. It is face to face support with regular meetings. The 12 steps would seem to enforce a fundamental change to the way you live your life. There is a spiritual or religious aspect to AA that is significant.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 164
buy the big book (AA)
http://www.amazon.com/Alcoholics-Ano...5795450&sr=8-1
and buy Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction (AVRT)
Amazon.com: Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction (9780671528584): Jack Trimpey: Books
both can be bought used for around 5 bucks (price of a 6-pack)
Read both with a very critical mind and decide for yourself which will work for you. I found that I can use techniques from both methods to help with my sobriety (as eJoshua said both are not necessarily mutually exclusive).
http://www.amazon.com/Alcoholics-Ano...5795450&sr=8-1
and buy Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction (AVRT)
Amazon.com: Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction (9780671528584): Jack Trimpey: Books
both can be bought used for around 5 bucks (price of a 6-pack)
Read both with a very critical mind and decide for yourself which will work for you. I found that I can use techniques from both methods to help with my sobriety (as eJoshua said both are not necessarily mutually exclusive).
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
I haven't "practiced" RR, AVRT, LifeRing or any of the other programs successfully. I've not even practiced them unsuccessfully (lol) other than I did pretty well at failing the "control my drinking" method. I hit AA out of the gates and stuck with it even though I didn't like it or believe in it at first.
Such as is my reality is, I try to just comment on what AA is, has been for me, and has been for ppl I know well enough to talk on their behalf. To ask me to compare it to AVRT is would be unfair to AVRT.
I can, however, give you an opinion on the difference but be forewarned, I've found opinions to be quite unreliable.
What I see as THE biggest difference between any 12-step based program and the non-12-step based ones is, simplistically, the first step in the 12-step programs: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. IF I could quit drinking on a decision, make it stick forever and IF, when I did that I could totally mange my life to ongoing success......I wouldn't need to be in AA.
I honestly believe the quickest and best way to determine which is best for you is to actually try them or pick one and give it a run. And I get it, I'm allllll about investigating heavily before I make a choice. In this case though, it's easier to pick up a fork and have a taste than it is to get someone to explain the differences between chocolate and vanilla.
Such as is my reality is, I try to just comment on what AA is, has been for me, and has been for ppl I know well enough to talk on their behalf. To ask me to compare it to AVRT is would be unfair to AVRT.
I can, however, give you an opinion on the difference but be forewarned, I've found opinions to be quite unreliable.
What I see as THE biggest difference between any 12-step based program and the non-12-step based ones is, simplistically, the first step in the 12-step programs: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable. IF I could quit drinking on a decision, make it stick forever and IF, when I did that I could totally mange my life to ongoing success......I wouldn't need to be in AA.
I honestly believe the quickest and best way to determine which is best for you is to actually try them or pick one and give it a run. And I get it, I'm allllll about investigating heavily before I make a choice. In this case though, it's easier to pick up a fork and have a taste than it is to get someone to explain the differences between chocolate and vanilla.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
DayTrader is correct. You can go back and forth over all sorts of secondary things, but IMO, the key factor is that the underlying premises of AA and AVRT are literally pulling in opposite directions. On some level, the logic of AVRT and of AA is actually quite similar, but with different interpretations, which might help clarify the disconnect.
AA:
Some will disagree with me, but I would argue that it is more effective to investigate both, and to then choose one or the other, at least at first, rather than trying to arbitrarily mix and match. At the very least, one should be well aware of the premises that drive each method, and their implications. Since the underlying axioms are pulling in opposite directions, you may end up trying to go forward and in reverse at the same time, undermining both methods. In that scenario, 1 + 1 will not equal 2.
Haphazardly picking and choosing is kind of like not understanding diesel engines, but taking some parts from a diesel engine, some parts from a petrol engine, and putting them together to build your own engine. Then, when the parts don't fit, using some duct tape to hold them together. Now, if you know how to take apart and rebuild both a diesel and a petrol engine, that's a different story, and you might indeed be quite able to mix and match without blowing up the engine.
AA:
Any thinking that contradicts the premise of the steps (Step 1) is the voice of your disease (ie, your disease talking).
Example: "My disease is telling me that I am not powerless and that I can stop working the steps."
AVRT:Example: "My disease is telling me that I am not powerless and that I can stop working the steps."
Any thinking that contradicts your Big Plan for permanent abstinence is your Addictive Voice (ie, your Beast talking).
Example: "My AV is telling me that I am powerless, and that it is just a matter of time until I drink again."
Example: "My AV is telling me that I am powerless, and that it is just a matter of time until I drink again."
Some will disagree with me, but I would argue that it is more effective to investigate both, and to then choose one or the other, at least at first, rather than trying to arbitrarily mix and match. At the very least, one should be well aware of the premises that drive each method, and their implications. Since the underlying axioms are pulling in opposite directions, you may end up trying to go forward and in reverse at the same time, undermining both methods. In that scenario, 1 + 1 will not equal 2.
Haphazardly picking and choosing is kind of like not understanding diesel engines, but taking some parts from a diesel engine, some parts from a petrol engine, and putting them together to build your own engine. Then, when the parts don't fit, using some duct tape to hold them together. Now, if you know how to take apart and rebuild both a diesel and a petrol engine, that's a different story, and you might indeed be quite able to mix and match without blowing up the engine.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,900
The big difference I experienced between the program of AA and RR was one of loss of volition vs free will.
In AA it was suggested that when it came to alcohol, I had lost the power of choice. My experience with drinking was that indeed my life was out of control. The question that came to my mind was: did alcohol strip me of my free will to stop drinking. I can interpret my experience with alcohol to fit the AA paradigm. I can also interpret my experience with alcohol otherwise. I am free to select a POV of alcoholism one way or the other. I choose to view my experience with drinking as one where I did indeed have a choice.
RR is more in line with an understanding that life is full of choices, drinking alcohol included. I in fact did make the choice to drink as well as drug when to do so would cause havoc beyond belief in my life and the in the lives of other around me. I am personally responsible, because of my choices, for putting alcohol and drugs in my system. My choices were influenced, not commanded by what I have no clue about. Could it be something that would turn me into a puppet, causing me to drink against my will? I just don't see it that way.
Yes the influences that can cause me to drink/drug can be Very very powerful, but not all powerful. Ahaa, all powerful. If I choose to view my alcoholism was controlled by an all powerful force, one so powerful that taking a drink was out of my control, I can see the need to have an all powerful to force to bring me out of drinking. However that reality is to rapped up in the magical mystical realm of the fantastic for me.
In AA it was suggested that when it came to alcohol, I had lost the power of choice. My experience with drinking was that indeed my life was out of control. The question that came to my mind was: did alcohol strip me of my free will to stop drinking. I can interpret my experience with alcohol to fit the AA paradigm. I can also interpret my experience with alcohol otherwise. I am free to select a POV of alcoholism one way or the other. I choose to view my experience with drinking as one where I did indeed have a choice.
RR is more in line with an understanding that life is full of choices, drinking alcohol included. I in fact did make the choice to drink as well as drug when to do so would cause havoc beyond belief in my life and the in the lives of other around me. I am personally responsible, because of my choices, for putting alcohol and drugs in my system. My choices were influenced, not commanded by what I have no clue about. Could it be something that would turn me into a puppet, causing me to drink against my will? I just don't see it that way.
Yes the influences that can cause me to drink/drug can be Very very powerful, but not all powerful. Ahaa, all powerful. If I choose to view my alcoholism was controlled by an all powerful force, one so powerful that taking a drink was out of my control, I can see the need to have an all powerful to force to bring me out of drinking. However that reality is to rapped up in the magical mystical realm of the fantastic for me.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique 
AA:
Any thinking that contradicts the premise of the steps (Step 1) is the voice of your disease (ie, your disease talking).
Example: "My disease is telling me that I am not powerless and that I can stop working the steps."
AVRT:Example: "My disease is telling me that I am not powerless and that I can stop working the steps."
Any thinking that contradicts your Big Plan for permanent abstinence is your Addictive Voice (ie, your Beast talking).
Example: "My AV is telling me that I am powerless, and that it is just a matter of time until I drink again."
Example: "My AV is telling me that I am powerless, and that it is just a matter of time until I drink again."
To those who happen across this thread, those differences above are what, from what I've seen, lead to most of the AA / non-AA tension around on SR. One group says you absolutely can and must stop whereas the other is saying you absolutely can't and won't. ......lol...... that someone like me who's pretty hard-core AA and someone like TU who'd pretty hard-core RR can be friends here, agree with one another, compliment one-another's posts by adding constructively to a conversation or by not commenting at all......... goes to show that the two groups CAN get and work together.
When AA folks ask/say to non-AA's, "What does your sponsor say, did you pray about it, of course it didn't work because you haven't surrendered" it's as "insulting" to their program as it is when they say "Don't need God to recover, commit to quitting and don't drink again, your life gets better when you stop" to someone in AA.
Nobody asked for that opinion but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Quitter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Philly Burbs
Posts: 102
Some good info here. I only know a little about each program.
I can't imagine myself saying that I have no responsibility in my drinking or no power as a person over my decision. That is so foreign a concept to me. So it would seem that avrt would make more sense for me.
Although I don't think I really want to be involved with a program either way. I just want to be an individual and stop self destructing my life.
I can't imagine myself saying that I have no responsibility in my drinking or no power as a person over my decision. That is so foreign a concept to me. So it would seem that avrt would make more sense for me.
Although I don't think I really want to be involved with a program either way. I just want to be an individual and stop self destructing my life.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by JustARide
.... it would seem that avrt would make more sense for me. I don't think I really want to be involved with a program either way. I just want to be an individual and stop self destructing my life.
On the RR forums, the mods actually tell you not to hang around any longer than necessary, and when your subscription runs out, you don't get a message asking you to come back. Moving on to independent living is part of the ethos.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by DayTrader
I didn't think to say it that way but well said.
Originally Posted by DayTrader
When AA folks ask/say to non-AA's, "What does your sponsor say, did you pray about it, of course it didn't work because you haven't surrendered" it's as "insulting" to their program as it is when they say "Don't need God to recover, commit to quitting and don't drink again, your life gets better when you stop" to someone in AA.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
On the RR forums, the mods actually tell you not to hang around any longer than necessary, and when your subscription runs out, you don't get a message asking you to come back. Moving on to independent living is part of the ethos.
Quitter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Philly Burbs
Posts: 102
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
AVRT is not so much a formal program as it is a body of knowledge — a paradigm for understanding addiction, and a method for defeating it. The RR philosophy is essentially "learn AVRT, then get lost." On the RR forums, the mods actually tell you not to hang around any longer than necessary, and when your subscription runs out, you don't get a message asking you to come back. Moving on to independent living is part of the ethos.
On the RR forums, the mods actually tell you not to hang around any longer than necessary, and when your subscription runs out, you don't get a message asking you to come back. Moving on to independent living is part of the ethos.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
I think there is another fundamental difference in approach between AA and AVRT.
AA says - in order to get sober, you must have a spiritual awakening first. You have to fix those character defects.
AVRT says - get sober first, and then have your spiritual awakening thingy if you think that will help.
AA says - in order to get sober, you must have a spiritual awakening first. You have to fix those character defects.
AVRT says - get sober first, and then have your spiritual awakening thingy if you think that will help.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by JustARide
I can't imagine myself saying that I have no responsibility in my drinking or no power as a person over my decision. That is so foreign a concept to me. So it would seem that avrt would make more sense for me.
LOW LOW bottom alcoholics have and easy time with it right off the bat. Higher bottom ppl like me struggle(d) with the concept as you just did: what about responsibility, I always had a choice when I picked up, how can I be powerless over something I'm not bodily forced to do, etc?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by JustARide
I'm not really interested in spending money though...on subscriptions, books, dvd's...some of it is very expensive. I'd be interested in learning more beyond the "crash course" if it were free.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by freshstart57
I think there is another fundamental difference in approach between AA and AVRT.
AA says - in order to get sober, you must have a spiritual awakening first. You have to fix those character defects.
AVRT says - get sober first, and then have your spiritual awakening thingy if you think that will help.
AA says - in order to get sober, you must have a spiritual awakening first. You have to fix those character defects.
AVRT says - get sober first, and then have your spiritual awakening thingy if you think that will help.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
I'm going to respond to this simply because I often get messages along these very lines. A quick check on Amazon shows a used copy of the RR book available for $1.34, and a new copy for $4.56. If you can't afford that, then you probably can't afford your next six pack, either.
If you can't afford that, you can't afford the computer, phone or whatever you're using to connect to the internet with.....or the gas in the car/ fare for the bus to get to the library to read this post on the free computers there!
AA's big book is online for free (assuming you can get on the internet) at Big Book Online Fourth Edition, about $4 used on Amazon, about $9 new, or.......at a lot of meetings they'll toss you a new one for free (I've given a handful of them away myself).
No commitment to buy much of anything in either program.
Quitter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Philly Burbs
Posts: 102
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
I'm going to respond to this simply because I often get messages along these very lines. A quick check on Amazon shows a used copy of the RR book available for $1.34, and a new copy for $4.56. If you can't afford that, then you probably can't afford your next six pack, either. The AVRT threads here on SR cover a lot of information, and they are free. It is entirely up to you, though.
You are right though, obviously if they are that cheap on amazon I could afford it if I wanted to. Thanks for the info.
Quitter
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Philly Burbs
Posts: 102
Originally Posted by DayTrader
You're doing the same thing I did... there's no denial of responsibility in AA. Quite the contrary actually but the explanation of the concepts is really beyond this thread and probably best left to a discussion in the 12-Step area of this site for those who are really looking into AA.
LOW LOW bottom alcoholics have and easy time with it right off the bat. Higher bottom ppl like me struggle(d) with the concept as you just did: what about responsibility, I always had a choice when I picked up, how can I be powerless over something I'm not bodily forced to do, etc?
LOW LOW bottom alcoholics have and easy time with it right off the bat. Higher bottom ppl like me struggle(d) with the concept as you just did: what about responsibility, I always had a choice when I picked up, how can I be powerless over something I'm not bodily forced to do, etc?
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Josh I am with you. Well said and succinctly put. I took what I could use and left the rest. Like membership in a particular church, for some the dogma is the thing. For me not. It seems many pick over terminology and muse about the metaphysics of sobriety. For some putting a rubber band on their wrist and snapping it for aversion therapy works. Not for me. I used a lot of AA in the first three months, a lot of REBT as I was a trained counselor for it in the 80's and AVRT seems to have borrowed a great deal from Mr. Albert Ellis, and most lastingly used SR and my friends here.
Lots of folks make it with just SR and their Doc. I am in that group now.
Lots of folks make it with just SR and their Doc. I am in that group now.
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