ReadyAndAble

ReadyAndAble

Hopefully we've been able put to rest the rumor that AA and AVRT are ever at odds with one another. Seriously though, seems like some distinctions have been drawn, with a tip of the hat to their overlapping objectives, and a case for custom hybrid approaches. I thought it was pretty interesting.

Tippingpoint

I think that this has been a very interesting discussion with merit for all lucky enough to read it!

I will say that the spiritual awakening that appears to be the goal of a 12 step program is something that I experienced with one step with AVRT. That one step though is a big one and it took me about 8 months to get my head around it.

Once I truly believed and fully meant it when I said that I would never drink again in this lifetime my spiritual awakening was delivered!

Tippingpoint

It was as if a weight had been lifted from me. There was a lightness of being and a connectedness to me that had not been present while the future consumption of alcohol was a possibility in my life.

Terminally Unique

Addiction kills the human spirit, Tippingpoint.

AVRT just sets it free.

john44

The Good News About Bad Behavior[/QUOTE]

Well, except for the 10 commandments.

john44

I do.

And this thread has been very enlightening. Also read extensively at RR. I recall the founder, on one page, saying that avrt and aa are TOTALLY incompatable. A direct contradiction to some posts here.

Mark75

I thought it was the founder, not AVRT, that was incompatible with AA.

Ranger

Likewise-and If I may be so bold--I doubt in their heart of hearts, Bill and the Doc envisioned athiests successfully utilizing their program. Yet, it happens, thank...um...god.

Good stuff.

least

Are we done yet?

Spybee007

Hi All - I have been to AA a few times, with mixed feelings due to mixed groups. The first group I attended was an older crowd, very kind and happy to have me there and speak, we spoke about how bad things had gotten, which was great to hear I wasn't alone (BTW: I hadn't found this site yet). The second crowd was larger but lead by this guy who was REALLY religious and appeared to me like we where there for a church ceremony rather than to discuss what keeps us from drinking. I'm not religious and the higher power stuff does nothing for me, I can't relate to that. Is AVRT a better option for me? Thanks!

Terminally Unique

Perhaps. AVRT does not require religion, spirituality, higher powers, etc. Your views on such matters, pro or con, are irrelevant for the purposes of AVRT, so it does have many secular and atheist fans. That said, it is somewhat interesting that it also has many deeply religious fans. AVRT dovetails with traditional notions of sin, free will, repentance, etc, so some Christians who believe that G-d endowed man with free will, and who can't reconcile the "powerless" bit prefer it over 12-Step.

Itchy

Tippingpoint, I reached that not so much as a spiritual awakening, more as a determination and decision that I not only must stop drinking and smoking, but I must stop for good, before I even made the appointment to detox in the VA Hospital.

I am not taking anything away from you for getting there or how you articulate that. It took me a couple of years waking up and drinking and promising to quit, and failing, with no programs or books ever experienced vis a vis recovery and sobriety. So it took even longer for me to wrap my hard head around it for me.

I have said and read others saying that it was as if a switch had been thrown in their heads, that made this time different than all their times "quitting" before when they had relapses.

Sapling I did use AA. I went to meetings and enjoyed the fellowship after I had already quit and only needed to get through a lot of PAWS and wanted to see what they had. Before I quit rehab I was given a big book and the little book, so I had read them quickly with a skim over. So if we are "going by the book" technically I did not work all the steps and I did not "keep coming back because it works when you work it" after I got all I needed in about three months. ( I do visit every few months so they know I am OK. I don't stay for the meetings I just greet them before for a minute to say hi to my friends.)

I "used" AA if you want to look at it from a dark perspective. And it was strictly for reinforcement/camaraderie that others made it permanently. I did not argue with any of the members or say I agreed or disagreed with any of their premises. Here is a quote from one of my early posts here:

"I believed that I was powerless over alcohol. However I have found that I do have power over sobriety. That is the flip side of being powerless over alcohol dontcha think? I am under the influence literally with alcohol in my system thus not sober. But I can, when sober, choose never to drink again. Ever. That isn't being powerful over alcohol, I am powerless there. But the point is moot as sober, I have the power to stay sober. AA worked for what I needed."
And this:
"I joined AA and just being able to talk without covering up exactly what I was and had done with others that accepted me for what I will be, not what I had been, was simply amazing. "
And this:
"You made my day! I also come away from my AA meetings feeling great and "normal" if you will. It's just so nice to have place where I can be the real me, not the public persona, and have people who know and don't judge. It is indeed a fellowship of my fellows."

So no talking about the way I "should" have done AA will ever take away the debt of gratitude I have for them being there for my first three months of healing and sobriety. I pass along my good feelings to you and Mark and any other AArs reading. I also encourage folks who need face to face to go to AA and take what you need and leave the rest.

I say this all the time and I will say it again to anybody struggling with sobriety. Get a program and take what you need, and leave the rest. If you get sober with some AA bits, and some AVRT bits then someone comes along and says you just don't understand that wasn't the program! Or after you are sober want to debate the metaphysical and psychology of how something works take it with a grain of salt.

I would certainly not get drunk again because I felt I had failed at AA and got sober. I don't need to make alcohol a being that is cunning. I just went and looked at my wife's bottle of Highland mist. It is just a liquid in there that is distilled grains with alcohol made from fermenting them that was aged in casks.

I am a non-drinker! It said nothing, did nothing! It is not cunning to me. I won't ever drink it again. The only thought I had was that the cunning one was me. I worked ways around my own good sense. I also actually thought that I am glad I got free of alcohol and smiled. Sobriety is not a battle for me. My only battle was with PAWS. The thought of drinking again wasn't crossing my mind. MY goodness I was going through hell, why would I want to repeat the detox then PAWS again?

It is just a substance. "I" drank. An inanimate substance did not seduce me. I went willingly! It was great while it was voluntary. Then it became mandatory. I was physically ill and committing slow suicide. And I needed it to get well daily in the mornings to stop the shaking, and spiraled down, almost too far to come back physically.

If AVRT works for some, or AA, with all the steps, you know I think that's wonderful.

In the military when we had a student that wasn't getting it we would reschedule that student with another instructor. Every time that would get them over the top. Why? Because even using the exact same lesson plan, the way it is said, the vocabulary, the instructor's perception of that student's body language feedback makes the difference. The student feels the failure at first. And if the instructor let his/her ego get in the way he or she would say the student is stupid, and several did in my career. I'd decertify the instructors and retrained them personally, with a view towards them going back in my classrooms for me. You see we did not have untrainable students as the entrance exams and basic/tech school already proved them trainable.

I am saying to anybody who thinks their way is the only way, and if the shoe fits wear it, to refer out when the book or program isn't working for someone, if you are interested in the person as opposed to trying to fit a square program on a round person.

And to the folks out there where a program is not working use some of others or change completely.

Once I was detoxed that was it. It was over, all except the PAWS and healing and I learned I was going to survive all that in MY AA meetings and here. My personal self talk I attribute to assimilating my education into practice.

This my own, I define learning easily. Learning is a change in behavior. In other words when one can't swim there are observable behaviors. Drowndering and floundering! When they learn to swim an observable change in behavior occurs. Sometimes the change in behavior is in thinking. When one does not know psychology there are observable behaviors too. In a discussion with a psychologist they are found to not know anything about it. When they learn psychology the observable change in behavior is that they can discuss it intelligently with one trained in it. Many people read and take courses and never learn anything as they have no change in behavior. The idea behind coffee table books. They are for show.

I could not stop drinking before and thought that I could never stop before I killed myself by my own hand. Once I stopped and detoxed I knew I would never again drink, but I was powerless to stop at that point. I learned that I could avoid any will power issues with an in hospital detox, and then all I had to do was keep it going which was easy once I was sober, other than going through PAWS. I learned I could not ever drink normally and I was going to kill myself with alcohol if I continued drinking at all.

So I did an in hospital detox, and quit drinking and smoking the easy way, no strokes or seizures, no pain or sweating it out.

Never once did I want to drink alcohol again. I even took a sip of my wife's drink by accident and spit it out and washed my mouth out as i wanted no absorption by mouth. Not because I was afraid I would drink it, but because I even use alcohol free mouthwash, why would I want to absorb any accidentally?

You see, I got detoxed. Sober I can deal with not ever drinking again. Attending AA and reading here on SR I learned that the thought might cross my mind that I was sober long enough to be a normal drinker and that is how many relapse. I learned that my metabolism has been changed by alcohol and I can't ever drink again normally.

Learning is a change in behavior.

I didn't detox to see if I could make it. Nor to take a break. And not for a second worried about drinking again. All that was for later learning. It was to start a new life that was alcohol free, and survive to live. To take the lie and "F" it! Just put it between the i and the e.

I learned.

No apologies for length.
:ghug3

mfanch

It's all Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Pick which one appeals to you. You can even do both.

mf

Terminally Unique

No, it is not. See my exchange with Itchy a few posts back. Just because they both deal with thoughts, does not make them the same thing, or even a part of the same thing. While not exactly the same thing as RET/REBT, AVRT violates almost every single axiom of CBT as well.

mfanch

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Mine is also mine. They are both CBT to me. I use both and they both work when you work them.

Have a great day.

Terminally Unique

Who said that, Itchy?

For the record, here you go:

You don't need to use AVRT to quit drinking. If you want to go to a recovery group instead, have at it, and if you want to just knock it off, feel free. If you want to make up your own method, go right ahead.

Terminally Unique

It is not an opinion, and it doesn't matter what they are to you, any more than it would matter if, to you -- or even to me -- Canada and the USA were the same because they are both in North America. It wouldn't make it so.

Itchy

mfanch,
I agree completely. When faced with cognitive dissonance we have only two options to relieve the stress of our beliefs and behaviors being incongruent. We can change the belief or change the behavior.

That is my opinion too.

I am out of here.

mfanch

Nice.

I don't have a need to be right. I have a need to be sober. I use both AA and RR and they essentially teach me to "address dysfunctional emotions, behaviors, and cognitions through a goal-oriented, systematic process."

That last part is in quotes because it is taken from a definition of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Verbatim.

The fact that they WORK is what is important. I don't think that a person looking to get sober is thinking, "Hmmmm, I need a program that is/isn't this or that." I think it's more like "Holy Cr@p I need to get clean! I need to get some help here!"