Today Is The Day
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
My will conquered all but alcohol. I had enough left to arrange for in hospital help and detox safely, and it all progressed from there. I had no choice in drinking, and then I had no choice but to quit. Funny how I loved drinking when it was voluntary, but not when it was mandatory.
now what?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by Itchy 
Funny how I loved drinking when it was voluntary, but not when it was mandatory.
So true, and well said.
Well, folks, this ends day 30 for me. I'll give myself a make-believe chip.
I feel terrific--mentally and soberly, if you will--but I can't wait to shake this cold. I decided last week to stop bringing sweet junk into the house; if I need a sweet fix, I can get that from fruits, which generally are plenty sweet for me anyway.
Tomorrow, I'll start adding some pushups and situps to my routine. Nothing outrageous, but a little something extra every day.
d
7Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Congrats on 30 days!
I posted this to another non AAr yesterday. I like my military career field challenge coin, and still carry it 13 years after retirement from the AF. I also have my one year sobriety coin and all of the others leading up to it with my sobriety date engraved in the one year. I now carry two lucky tokens in my pocket. My sobriety one and my mil challenge coin.
One month is a great accomplishment for any of us. I was AA and made a special visit for my one year brass coin. A ring is a good idea. You can order a coin of your own if you like too that is not AA! Here is one you can engrave as you go for each month abbreviated in the engraving blank area. Like D J F M A M for December January Feb Mar Apr May. $14.95 click here: http://www.noblehammer.com/product_p/cc-00058.htm
I posted this to another non AAr yesterday. I like my military career field challenge coin, and still carry it 13 years after retirement from the AF. I also have my one year sobriety coin and all of the others leading up to it with my sobriety date engraved in the one year. I now carry two lucky tokens in my pocket. My sobriety one and my mil challenge coin.
One month is a great accomplishment for any of us. I was AA and made a special visit for my one year brass coin. A ring is a good idea. You can order a coin of your own if you like too that is not AA! Here is one you can engrave as you go for each month abbreviated in the engraving blank area. Like D J F M A M for December January Feb Mar Apr May. $14.95 click here: http://www.noblehammer.com/product_p/cc-00058.htm
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hamilton, Ohio
Posts: 6
Hello!
My name is Eric and I wish to share this:
It wasn’t lived long ago! Nor was it seen with another’s eyes. I awoke moving my legs and arms but going nowhere. I tried to move but the earth beneath me seemed to shift all around me- and like some invisible hand on my chest holding me down in the soft watery mud, I was trapped only free enough to stare up into the night sky! I pressed my hands down into the earth hoping to regain control of my limbs. But the mud swallowed them-denying me any hope of recovery. All I could seem to do is lie there as the cold night surrounded me and began to seep into my skin. I looked up and all I could see was the darkness staring back at me. Lifelessness surrounded me and all that I was even in the best of my days meant nothing now. I had every desire to free myself, but I could not! I tried to move, but I was confined. Nothing I had done—ever done—seemed to matter in this moment.
I remember when I began to drink. In fact, I remember the month and year. It was back in February of 2006. I had just learned that my wife of nearly six years had been unfaithful for almost half of the entire marriage. She also slept with my best friend-who also happened to be the one who told me about my wife’s infidelity. Well, maybe that’s a story for another time. The point is that I was partially glad and oddly somewhat confused by the whole thing. In the past when some horrible thing would befall me I would seek out some sage advice or simply try to fool myself into thinking that all I could do is but “move on” and time would make the pain eventually pointless. At first I felt free from her and all the lies she ever offered up. I was also told that I wasn’t a bad looking guy and that it was time for me to have fun. I eventually convinced myself that “fun” is what I deserved, indeed! I convinced myself that I could bear the burden of having had a cheating wife-and the years I invested in us meant nothing. It was the first set of lies in a long series. Lying to myself was the easiest thing to do. It somehow became even easier with help.
That first night out in February I recall that I had no idea what to even order. I told the bar waitress to please give me a bud-lite, I happened to see it advertised in a commercial or something. At any rate, as I stood there holding up the wall-this beautiful woman walked up to me and asked me if I could dance. At the time, and besides being speechless, I couldn’t. But I eventually told her that I was willing to learn-hands on if necessary. As the night passed I was introduced to her friends and my first shots of Vodka. Everything came alive! The lights that flickered around the dance floor were brighter. The music filled me in ways unknown to me before and I could sway my hips just like she wanted me to. Her friends laughed at my jokes and stories from way back when. Their friends copied my number on little torn pieces of beer stained napkins. I felt lifted out of my body-happy without having to work at it. A warm feeling coursed down my neck and into my fingers and legs. I was alive for the first time in years. It was as if a weight had been lifted and I could release all inhibitions to the wind. Consequence and time became meaningless in the inebriated moment. The night ended anyway. I had her number and the time of my life. All the years of marriage, work and study never felt like this. It was one thing to work in order to continue living. It is one thing to study about life and liberty. It is one thing to live alone in a marriage hoping for a better life. It is altogether different to possess such feelings of godlike elation in the time it takes a lazy evening to pass. I had what I wanted! How many have slaved for so long a time to have what I had in just 4 hours. That night, I was king and a conqueror-nothing seemed impossible to me. I wasn’t aiming to live-I was alive!
But in that mud filled ditch I was helplessly lost! Unable to move. There was no swaying to the music. There was no sound at all. The buzz was wearing off and my skin was feeling increasingly cooler. I was far from that night years ago. Far from all that I had ever worked to attain. Far from those who have loved and sacrificed so much for me. Far from alive. I was dying and in that moment of earthen touch- I was alive enough see my own grave. The night sky possessed no light for me! The earth was no friend to me. People I walked away from that night in the bar didn’t want my number or to know me. They asked me to leave. There wasn’t anything they found desirable about me that night. For them, I could just as well drift away into the night forever. I was an ass. A buffoon that was neither funny nor liked. The feeling that had inspired me years before was almost all I had left. Here is where I am. In this ditch-broken to pieces and reduced to rubble. Nothing but cold earth to trap me and suspend my life for the moment. My life I had known was gone. I was no longer the college student or the good son or the good boyfriend. I am something different.
I heard some noise coming from my right coat pocket. It was my girlfriend. She had watched me walk off thinking I would somehow reach home soon enough. But I never showed up. She was finally looking for me. Shortly thereafter, just over the ridge the night sky wasn’t silent any longer. I heard her voice. Like a miracle of resurrection my legs could move and the cold hand that seemed to hold me to the bendy pasty earth was gone.
For such a long time I have denied what I was. I always made excuses for myself. But the next morning was a sunny one. The light seemed different somehow and the pain and worry that I inflicted had finally been realized. Much like my unmovable legs in the ditch, my tongue would never allow my mouth to say it. “I’m an alcoholic.” When I finally said this with all sincerity, when that confession came tumbling off my lips, I felt a peace that I haven’t had in years. I had avoided that truth for so long because I had thought it meant that I was weak and full of fear. I thought such an admittance would deny me the times I felt I needed to have in order to feel free. The truth, however, freed me that day. The fears and the defenses melted away into a subtle peace. I know the struggle ahead. But this time life has sent me the message that there may not be another chance.
On the one side, I reason that the attempt to negotiate with my challenge is a logical possibility. Yet, on the other side, I feel the power of the need biting at me even as I sit here and type away. In me are two impulses engaging separate and unequal parts of myself. In the space between these impulses is a wisdom that knows the difference between the known and the unknown. ‘Knowing’ that there can be no abiding peace unless change is forced. ‘Unknown,’ in what this journey will make of me. Yet, it is this unknown future that must be travelled if I ever hope to be king and conqueror on my own terms. To govern again with understanding and forgiveness will be my greatest obstacle and my greatest fear! Yet, this is a journey that must be chanced if I’m ever going to create and discover the place I’ve neglected for so long: Myself!
Thanks for reading.
A letter from an alcoholic,
Eric D.
It wasn’t lived long ago! Nor was it seen with another’s eyes. I awoke moving my legs and arms but going nowhere. I tried to move but the earth beneath me seemed to shift all around me- and like some invisible hand on my chest holding me down in the soft watery mud, I was trapped only free enough to stare up into the night sky! I pressed my hands down into the earth hoping to regain control of my limbs. But the mud swallowed them-denying me any hope of recovery. All I could seem to do is lie there as the cold night surrounded me and began to seep into my skin. I looked up and all I could see was the darkness staring back at me. Lifelessness surrounded me and all that I was even in the best of my days meant nothing now. I had every desire to free myself, but I could not! I tried to move, but I was confined. Nothing I had done—ever done—seemed to matter in this moment.
I remember when I began to drink. In fact, I remember the month and year. It was back in February of 2006. I had just learned that my wife of nearly six years had been unfaithful for almost half of the entire marriage. She also slept with my best friend-who also happened to be the one who told me about my wife’s infidelity. Well, maybe that’s a story for another time. The point is that I was partially glad and oddly somewhat confused by the whole thing. In the past when some horrible thing would befall me I would seek out some sage advice or simply try to fool myself into thinking that all I could do is but “move on” and time would make the pain eventually pointless. At first I felt free from her and all the lies she ever offered up. I was also told that I wasn’t a bad looking guy and that it was time for me to have fun. I eventually convinced myself that “fun” is what I deserved, indeed! I convinced myself that I could bear the burden of having had a cheating wife-and the years I invested in us meant nothing. It was the first set of lies in a long series. Lying to myself was the easiest thing to do. It somehow became even easier with help.
That first night out in February I recall that I had no idea what to even order. I told the bar waitress to please give me a bud-lite, I happened to see it advertised in a commercial or something. At any rate, as I stood there holding up the wall-this beautiful woman walked up to me and asked me if I could dance. At the time, and besides being speechless, I couldn’t. But I eventually told her that I was willing to learn-hands on if necessary. As the night passed I was introduced to her friends and my first shots of Vodka. Everything came alive! The lights that flickered around the dance floor were brighter. The music filled me in ways unknown to me before and I could sway my hips just like she wanted me to. Her friends laughed at my jokes and stories from way back when. Their friends copied my number on little torn pieces of beer stained napkins. I felt lifted out of my body-happy without having to work at it. A warm feeling coursed down my neck and into my fingers and legs. I was alive for the first time in years. It was as if a weight had been lifted and I could release all inhibitions to the wind. Consequence and time became meaningless in the inebriated moment. The night ended anyway. I had her number and the time of my life. All the years of marriage, work and study never felt like this. It was one thing to work in order to continue living. It is one thing to study about life and liberty. It is one thing to live alone in a marriage hoping for a better life. It is altogether different to possess such feelings of godlike elation in the time it takes a lazy evening to pass. I had what I wanted! How many have slaved for so long a time to have what I had in just 4 hours. That night, I was king and a conqueror-nothing seemed impossible to me. I wasn’t aiming to live-I was alive!
But in that mud filled ditch I was helplessly lost! Unable to move. There was no swaying to the music. There was no sound at all. The buzz was wearing off and my skin was feeling increasingly cooler. I was far from that night years ago. Far from all that I had ever worked to attain. Far from those who have loved and sacrificed so much for me. Far from alive. I was dying and in that moment of earthen touch- I was alive enough see my own grave. The night sky possessed no light for me! The earth was no friend to me. People I walked away from that night in the bar didn’t want my number or to know me. They asked me to leave. There wasn’t anything they found desirable about me that night. For them, I could just as well drift away into the night forever. I was an ass. A buffoon that was neither funny nor liked. The feeling that had inspired me years before was almost all I had left. Here is where I am. In this ditch-broken to pieces and reduced to rubble. Nothing but cold earth to trap me and suspend my life for the moment. My life I had known was gone. I was no longer the college student or the good son or the good boyfriend. I am something different.
I heard some noise coming from my right coat pocket. It was my girlfriend. She had watched me walk off thinking I would somehow reach home soon enough. But I never showed up. She was finally looking for me. Shortly thereafter, just over the ridge the night sky wasn’t silent any longer. I heard her voice. Like a miracle of resurrection my legs could move and the cold hand that seemed to hold me to the bendy pasty earth was gone.
For such a long time I have denied what I was. I always made excuses for myself. But the next morning was a sunny one. The light seemed different somehow and the pain and worry that I inflicted had finally been realized. Much like my unmovable legs in the ditch, my tongue would never allow my mouth to say it. “I’m an alcoholic.” When I finally said this with all sincerity, when that confession came tumbling off my lips, I felt a peace that I haven’t had in years. I had avoided that truth for so long because I had thought it meant that I was weak and full of fear. I thought such an admittance would deny me the times I felt I needed to have in order to feel free. The truth, however, freed me that day. The fears and the defenses melted away into a subtle peace. I know the struggle ahead. But this time life has sent me the message that there may not be another chance.
On the one side, I reason that the attempt to negotiate with my challenge is a logical possibility. Yet, on the other side, I feel the power of the need biting at me even as I sit here and type away. In me are two impulses engaging separate and unequal parts of myself. In the space between these impulses is a wisdom that knows the difference between the known and the unknown. ‘Knowing’ that there can be no abiding peace unless change is forced. ‘Unknown,’ in what this journey will make of me. Yet, it is this unknown future that must be travelled if I ever hope to be king and conqueror on my own terms. To govern again with understanding and forgiveness will be my greatest obstacle and my greatest fear! Yet, this is a journey that must be chanced if I’m ever going to create and discover the place I’ve neglected for so long: Myself!
Thanks for reading.
A letter from an alcoholic,
Eric D.
now what?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by edelker
On the one side, I reason that the attempt to negotiate with my challenge is a logical possibility. Yet, on the other side, I feel the power of the need biting at me even as I sit here and type away. In me are two impulses engaging separate and unequal parts of myself. In the space between these impulses is a wisdom that knows the difference between the known and the unknown. ‘Knowing’ that there can be no abiding peace unless change is forced. ‘Unknown,’ in what this journey will make of me. Yet, it is this unknown future that must be travelled if I ever hope to be king and conqueror on my own terms. To govern again with understanding and forgiveness will be my greatest obstacle and my greatest fear! Yet, this is a journey that must be chanced if I’m ever going to create and discover the place I’ve neglected for so long: Myself!
That was one heck of a first post, mate.
Thanks so much for taking the time to address my question in detail. I'm beginning to understand what people mean when they say they can't quit on their own. I may never grasp it fully--it's rather like someone trying to convince me that liver is a tasty treat when I'm simply not wired that way--but every effort to express this situation by those who have lived it brings me a bit closer to understanding, and if I never understand it won't be for lack of trying.
Perhaps my problem is that I'm just too literal. I keep thinking that we can control our own impulses, no matter what those impulses are, given the right motivation. For example, if I were convinced that I'd die the moment I ever had sex again, I'm quite sure I'd be able to never have sex again with no trouble at all. The problem is that we generally don't have such powerful motivation to quit drinking, so it's easy to see quitting as impossible.
Or impossible to do alone. Or something like that.
Hence the notion of "powerlessness" over alcohol--it isn't real powerlessness; it's effective powerlessness. At least, that's how I see it at the moment.
d
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hamilton, Ohio
Posts: 6
Hey there!
Hello Huntress,
It is interesting how alcoholism makes genuine philosophers of us all. We see things we never thought possible or, at the very least, we seem to experience ‘ourselves’ in ways that fling us into asking the bigger questions—what we more academic philosophers may call the meta-questions of life.
For me, as I peer ever deeper into the meaning of power vss. powerlessness I first reflect on what it means to be a ‘self’ or ‘me’ in the light of my own experience as an alcoholic. I remember one week I got ridiculously drunk, and, for me, that was saying a lot! Afterwards, friends told me about the nuisance I had become: Kissing five girls in the space of one hour. Falling down on the dance floor and having my right boot shift halfway off my leg. At the end of the night I had collapsed down some steps-only to rise ever slowly in the crowd of people attempting to lift me up with the silliest grin that only we drunks could make. I yelled at my friend and the bar-waitress who were simply trying to help me pay for the tab. Neither they nor I could understand what I was saying. They think it was something along the lines of, “Donya fink aye cun put the ole dollar dog down there.” Who knows. The point is that “I” had no clue what happened the next day. None! It was all a blank to me. There was some moment between the one drink that I could still sort of see the people in front of me while being the metaphorical Dr. Jekyll and the total inebriated Mr. Hide I eventually turned into.
Well, the next day my friends let me have it with full verbal vigor! Then an interesting thing happened. I didn’t stop and question whether or not that maybe I have a drinking problem. It never occurred to me that I just embarrassed myself in front of my friends and nearly one hundred other people. It never came to mind that I hurt them with my willingness to lose all volition. Instead, and most oddly enough, I merely thought that all I needed to do was curb the total number of drinks I usually consume and maybe change up my menu of selected drinks a bit. “I” now look back and see two ‘selves’ that “I” now do not understand. The one that didn’t let go and the other that foolishly thought that this whole matter was nothing more than statistical games. The next week came and I cooled it on the consumption as skeptical eyes evaluated my every ‘choice.’ I actually pulled it off that night. The night was well managed and I made it home fine enough. Did my will make some minimal change in my behavior? Was I now able to alter the course of action by full concentration, support from friends and family and sheer force of will? Nope! The next week, because I had convinced myself that all was well, I gave in a little more with each drink. The buzzes left me more quickly. I had no sustaining feelings of euphoria as I did prior. I snuck away to the other bar on the other side of the nightclub. Even then I knew what I was doing was likely going to take me down some unknown and undesirable path-but I was willing to chance it. It was a gamble, needless to say, I lost. Badly!
I see separate and conflicting motives battling inside me. I see and feel the wars rage on while I’m helpless to call for peace or even know how to declare peace with irreconcilable differences. I had countless negotiations I assure you. I tried everything that one could to moderate, manage, and convince myself of another way. All failed when the test of time came to call for the final results. I could recall hating my hand, fingers, and arm holding the drink to my face. I can recall tears streaming down my face as I wept for the very thing I was doing to myself. Wanting to stop was eventually what I desired most of all.
That night in the weeds and mud taught me that there is power within-and that one’s volition can be revived by the slow-but patient willingness to survive the next bout of drunken desire. But these truths didn’t come to me by me seeing it first so clearly or as some true “individual.” I saw the route to empowerment didn’t come through the self picking itself up by the proverbial bootstraps. One, what did self even mean in all of this? What am I when I can be so many things struggling at once? When I change who am I? What am I? Am I all of these things—mere contradictions and fragmented pieces of a puzzle that cannot fit all together? I don’t think so. I learned that so-called “self-empowerment” begins in humility. Drinking gives us the illusion that the self is all important! It says that the material-feel of the moment is what is. It deceives one into acting that what we are- are independent things seeking to fulfill our own desire principally-all else is secondary at best. But in bottom muddy ditch moments this illusion of self-control came to light. It is an illusion. Alcoholics know this best. We see through the façade of self-reliance as equal to self-interests. In moments of helplessness-we need others. In those moments we realize that we are not alone. Our actions carry effects far beyond ourselves and we stand to cultivate or ruin what we and others have built. For me, we see that power through conscious choice is something we are not just born with knowing and doing. We often are actors merely following the parts played out for us by family and culture. To choose in the way I mean it here-is to come to the end of yourself as truly helpless- and know that through others and one’s version of higher power do we earn and know of the full power of our “soberly” thought out choices. When we recover, it is because others AND ourselves worked together. But this had always been the truth. It is the truth that knocks away the fake pretense of our material-bent culture. We lost ourselves because we never had the full genuine experience of knowing what it was like to need others even when we were in our darkest of moments.
We can choose! We can make better choices! We did just that when we decided to change! Yet, I know I didn’t do it alone-nor can I. This isn’t irony—that we become better self-rulers through otherness. Rather, this is the way it has always been. Alcoholism is something that we and our society share in. It is also something that we and our supports share in. From time immemorial, and in all cases, we have leaned on the good graces of nature, others, and our understanding of spirituality to make it through. So, ‘yes,’ we have power-but only when we see it as the result of first realizing our humble connectedness to others and our responsibility to them. In this case, and in this project, we find ourselves. It is truly a beautiful thing to behold! I write that it is beautiful because finding ourselves is seeing our power and others as they are and not as others may wish us to think of them!
Just some thoughts:
Eric D.
It is interesting how alcoholism makes genuine philosophers of us all. We see things we never thought possible or, at the very least, we seem to experience ‘ourselves’ in ways that fling us into asking the bigger questions—what we more academic philosophers may call the meta-questions of life.
For me, as I peer ever deeper into the meaning of power vss. powerlessness I first reflect on what it means to be a ‘self’ or ‘me’ in the light of my own experience as an alcoholic. I remember one week I got ridiculously drunk, and, for me, that was saying a lot! Afterwards, friends told me about the nuisance I had become: Kissing five girls in the space of one hour. Falling down on the dance floor and having my right boot shift halfway off my leg. At the end of the night I had collapsed down some steps-only to rise ever slowly in the crowd of people attempting to lift me up with the silliest grin that only we drunks could make. I yelled at my friend and the bar-waitress who were simply trying to help me pay for the tab. Neither they nor I could understand what I was saying. They think it was something along the lines of, “Donya fink aye cun put the ole dollar dog down there.” Who knows. The point is that “I” had no clue what happened the next day. None! It was all a blank to me. There was some moment between the one drink that I could still sort of see the people in front of me while being the metaphorical Dr. Jekyll and the total inebriated Mr. Hide I eventually turned into.
Well, the next day my friends let me have it with full verbal vigor! Then an interesting thing happened. I didn’t stop and question whether or not that maybe I have a drinking problem. It never occurred to me that I just embarrassed myself in front of my friends and nearly one hundred other people. It never came to mind that I hurt them with my willingness to lose all volition. Instead, and most oddly enough, I merely thought that all I needed to do was curb the total number of drinks I usually consume and maybe change up my menu of selected drinks a bit. “I” now look back and see two ‘selves’ that “I” now do not understand. The one that didn’t let go and the other that foolishly thought that this whole matter was nothing more than statistical games. The next week came and I cooled it on the consumption as skeptical eyes evaluated my every ‘choice.’ I actually pulled it off that night. The night was well managed and I made it home fine enough. Did my will make some minimal change in my behavior? Was I now able to alter the course of action by full concentration, support from friends and family and sheer force of will? Nope! The next week, because I had convinced myself that all was well, I gave in a little more with each drink. The buzzes left me more quickly. I had no sustaining feelings of euphoria as I did prior. I snuck away to the other bar on the other side of the nightclub. Even then I knew what I was doing was likely going to take me down some unknown and undesirable path-but I was willing to chance it. It was a gamble, needless to say, I lost. Badly!
I see separate and conflicting motives battling inside me. I see and feel the wars rage on while I’m helpless to call for peace or even know how to declare peace with irreconcilable differences. I had countless negotiations I assure you. I tried everything that one could to moderate, manage, and convince myself of another way. All failed when the test of time came to call for the final results. I could recall hating my hand, fingers, and arm holding the drink to my face. I can recall tears streaming down my face as I wept for the very thing I was doing to myself. Wanting to stop was eventually what I desired most of all.
That night in the weeds and mud taught me that there is power within-and that one’s volition can be revived by the slow-but patient willingness to survive the next bout of drunken desire. But these truths didn’t come to me by me seeing it first so clearly or as some true “individual.” I saw the route to empowerment didn’t come through the self picking itself up by the proverbial bootstraps. One, what did self even mean in all of this? What am I when I can be so many things struggling at once? When I change who am I? What am I? Am I all of these things—mere contradictions and fragmented pieces of a puzzle that cannot fit all together? I don’t think so. I learned that so-called “self-empowerment” begins in humility. Drinking gives us the illusion that the self is all important! It says that the material-feel of the moment is what is. It deceives one into acting that what we are- are independent things seeking to fulfill our own desire principally-all else is secondary at best. But in bottom muddy ditch moments this illusion of self-control came to light. It is an illusion. Alcoholics know this best. We see through the façade of self-reliance as equal to self-interests. In moments of helplessness-we need others. In those moments we realize that we are not alone. Our actions carry effects far beyond ourselves and we stand to cultivate or ruin what we and others have built. For me, we see that power through conscious choice is something we are not just born with knowing and doing. We often are actors merely following the parts played out for us by family and culture. To choose in the way I mean it here-is to come to the end of yourself as truly helpless- and know that through others and one’s version of higher power do we earn and know of the full power of our “soberly” thought out choices. When we recover, it is because others AND ourselves worked together. But this had always been the truth. It is the truth that knocks away the fake pretense of our material-bent culture. We lost ourselves because we never had the full genuine experience of knowing what it was like to need others even when we were in our darkest of moments.
We can choose! We can make better choices! We did just that when we decided to change! Yet, I know I didn’t do it alone-nor can I. This isn’t irony—that we become better self-rulers through otherness. Rather, this is the way it has always been. Alcoholism is something that we and our society share in. It is also something that we and our supports share in. From time immemorial, and in all cases, we have leaned on the good graces of nature, others, and our understanding of spirituality to make it through. So, ‘yes,’ we have power-but only when we see it as the result of first realizing our humble connectedness to others and our responsibility to them. In this case, and in this project, we find ourselves. It is truly a beautiful thing to behold! I write that it is beautiful because finding ourselves is seeing our power and others as they are and not as others may wish us to think of them!
Just some thoughts:
Eric D.
now what?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85
Yeah. She is, well, brilliant.
And I'm not biased in the least. Not me. Nope. Pure objectivity here.
Well. I'm on the morning of day 35. No problems. Enjoying my guitar, getting my buttocks kicked regularly in chess, and feeling great every morning and all day. This is truly amazing.
Why did I put it off so long?
d
And I'm not biased in the least. Not me. Nope. Pure objectivity here.
Well. I'm on the morning of day 35. No problems. Enjoying my guitar, getting my buttocks kicked regularly in chess, and feeling great every morning and all day. This is truly amazing.
Why did I put it off so long?
d
HappyHeartJoy
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Sydney NSW Australia
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by sugarbear1
I can't stop, I'm a real alcoholic. Take alcohol away, I'm the problem.
For you, it seems alcohol was the problem. Big difference.
For you, it seems alcohol was the problem. Big difference.
Huntress, congratulations on your 35 days. I look forward to your posts, keep them coming.
now what?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85
Originally Posted by sugarbear1
I can't stop, I'm a real alcoholic.
I call No True Scotsman.
So much for that.
So why can't you stop? I've heard this claim a lot. It is what I seek to understand. Alcohol doesn't pour itself down your throat.
d
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hamilton, Ohio
Posts: 6
Hello all
Hello Huntress,
Huntress wrote,
“I think addiction is wanting your substance of choice more than you want to change. What do y'all think?”
Well, there’s ambiguity in what you mean by “…addiction is wanting…” By ‘ambiguity’ I mean that addiction is typically defined as “a state of physiological or psychological dependence on a potentially harmful drug.” It's not clear what you would mean by "dependence," for example. What could it mean? Given this, you can mean (1) that ‘wanting’ means something like one’s mere desire to abuse above and beyond non-abuse. Or -(2) that such abuse of the drug(s) of choice has somehow been merely conditioned by one’s own volitional states- and of the action predicated thereupon. As a result, by mere choosing one can alter this ‘conditioning.’ Hence, one may just as well “choose” another course of action and condition himself otherwise. Neither one of these interpretations seem to make much sense.
For one thing, both of these approaches seem to assume a fully functional psychology of volition as ALWAYS ‘properly functional.' Yet, if this is the case, then addiction isn’t at all a psychological or physiological dependency, which implies the absence of control. If an ‘addict’ had full control over his/her actions, then we could freely choose to continue to use the drug of choice MORE responsibly. Moreover, if there’s NOTHING BUT one’s own wanting, and such a wanting is wholly up to the individual, then this implies that one WANTS to be an addict. Yet, both medical and case studies clearly reveal that addicts report WANTING to control their behavior and cannot! So, if we’re to buy into this rather odd notion of choice, then we must assume that there’s some moral failing of those who say that they want to change but do not—for example, we must assume they’re all just lying about their internal experiences. As a consequence, if this is the case, then addicts are not truly dependent, they’re really just morally and mentally deplorable individuals who do not, for any number of potential reasons, desiring to change at all. Naturally, this hardly seems likely.
Choice appears to be conditioned on numerous internal states and externalities—not all of which are wholly clear. A homosexual is said to choose his or her behavior. Yet, many who have attempted heterosexual relationships do not report being happy and, in fact, contemplate either separation from their spouse or worse. It seems rather odd to assert that all decisions are somehow qualitatively equivalent. My choice as an addict or a heterosexual male do not feel or are experienced the same by me as me choosing ice cream or preferring to walk one night instead of run. I have compulsions and temperaments that are not fully in some sort of inner-person’s control. In fact, most of us have to work hard to condition ourselves away from certain undesirable behaviors that we may exhibit at point X. This isn’t to say that all of these behaviors or orientations are equal! Rather, it is to point out that it become overwhelmingly obvious that not all experiences are up to a little inner observer pulling the levers and pushing the buttons.
I think part of the problem here is that we have this view of self as somehow being this monolithic thing that operates in the brain-controlling all. Yet, we have both excellent philosophical and scientific reasons for doubting this picture: (1) we are often many things at once. Sometimes we are happy-other times we’re angry. We behave in many ways differently, and at times, in contradictory ways, all within the same day. Who are we? Which feeling(s) are we? One might say we are all the above. However, all this would amount to is saying that we are an incoherent bundle of confused and confusing emotions, thoughts, and actions. (2) We know that brain functions operate in numerous ways that evade, and often, give rise to our conscious thoughts. We can even view these brain patterns as preceding one’s acknowledgment of a given set of stimuli. Certain brain functions may often physiologically function in ways opposite of other brain functions as we see in many brain-disorder patients. In other words, there isn’t this simple soul encased in mere flesh and bones producing some psychic-phenomenon known as ‘choice.’ Rather, we are lots of processes a-work simultaneously. The brain centers responsible for slow-deliberative thought and action must and will contend with other brain centers—affecting or influencing decision making processes. Naturally, genetics have some important influence on the bio-engineering of certain proclivities.
This perfectly explains why some of us are more inclined than others towards addictive behaviors. It also allows us to take seriously the claims that addicts cannot or have enormously complicated challenges changing their abusive behaviors. Your point, then, would seem obvious and acceptable if we were merely one thing always in possession of our rational faculties AND it was just that obvious that we were. Evidently, it is hardly that obvious. This archaic view of self is what Dennett refers to as the ‘theater of the mind’ view: like a little person is somehow living in our minds viewing the outside world. However, and again, we have good reason to doubt this rather ancient view.
For addicts-wanting to change is certainly important. However, given the numerous internal and external influences on our behavior, we require far more than sheer will alone. This is why we are often asked by mental health professionals whether or not we have strong supports and whether or not we’re a part of some organized community that supports change—like AA and/or group therapy treatments.
There have often been times that I wished to change. There have been times that my “will” to change was greater than my will to remain in the old ways-so to speak. But the process of change is a hard path to follow for most addicts because it requires re-conditioning of mental behaviors, incorporating a different worldview related to one’s addiction, and re-creating different lifestyle choices and behaviors. Again, if this sort of thing could be reducible to mere wanting, then I’d still be drinking! After all, I could will to change at any time-or simply revise how I drink. Quite obviously, I cannot hope to choose to allow alcohol to be in my life as a part of my lifestyle choices. If I could in any way, I would love to. Choice and one of its consequences—‘wanting’ is not an option to me as it concerns alcohol if I wish to remain sober and ‘in control.’ We are complex system indeed!
Eric D.
Huntress wrote,
“I think addiction is wanting your substance of choice more than you want to change. What do y'all think?”
Well, there’s ambiguity in what you mean by “…addiction is wanting…” By ‘ambiguity’ I mean that addiction is typically defined as “a state of physiological or psychological dependence on a potentially harmful drug.” It's not clear what you would mean by "dependence," for example. What could it mean? Given this, you can mean (1) that ‘wanting’ means something like one’s mere desire to abuse above and beyond non-abuse. Or -(2) that such abuse of the drug(s) of choice has somehow been merely conditioned by one’s own volitional states- and of the action predicated thereupon. As a result, by mere choosing one can alter this ‘conditioning.’ Hence, one may just as well “choose” another course of action and condition himself otherwise. Neither one of these interpretations seem to make much sense.
For one thing, both of these approaches seem to assume a fully functional psychology of volition as ALWAYS ‘properly functional.' Yet, if this is the case, then addiction isn’t at all a psychological or physiological dependency, which implies the absence of control. If an ‘addict’ had full control over his/her actions, then we could freely choose to continue to use the drug of choice MORE responsibly. Moreover, if there’s NOTHING BUT one’s own wanting, and such a wanting is wholly up to the individual, then this implies that one WANTS to be an addict. Yet, both medical and case studies clearly reveal that addicts report WANTING to control their behavior and cannot! So, if we’re to buy into this rather odd notion of choice, then we must assume that there’s some moral failing of those who say that they want to change but do not—for example, we must assume they’re all just lying about their internal experiences. As a consequence, if this is the case, then addicts are not truly dependent, they’re really just morally and mentally deplorable individuals who do not, for any number of potential reasons, desiring to change at all. Naturally, this hardly seems likely.
Choice appears to be conditioned on numerous internal states and externalities—not all of which are wholly clear. A homosexual is said to choose his or her behavior. Yet, many who have attempted heterosexual relationships do not report being happy and, in fact, contemplate either separation from their spouse or worse. It seems rather odd to assert that all decisions are somehow qualitatively equivalent. My choice as an addict or a heterosexual male do not feel or are experienced the same by me as me choosing ice cream or preferring to walk one night instead of run. I have compulsions and temperaments that are not fully in some sort of inner-person’s control. In fact, most of us have to work hard to condition ourselves away from certain undesirable behaviors that we may exhibit at point X. This isn’t to say that all of these behaviors or orientations are equal! Rather, it is to point out that it become overwhelmingly obvious that not all experiences are up to a little inner observer pulling the levers and pushing the buttons.
I think part of the problem here is that we have this view of self as somehow being this monolithic thing that operates in the brain-controlling all. Yet, we have both excellent philosophical and scientific reasons for doubting this picture: (1) we are often many things at once. Sometimes we are happy-other times we’re angry. We behave in many ways differently, and at times, in contradictory ways, all within the same day. Who are we? Which feeling(s) are we? One might say we are all the above. However, all this would amount to is saying that we are an incoherent bundle of confused and confusing emotions, thoughts, and actions. (2) We know that brain functions operate in numerous ways that evade, and often, give rise to our conscious thoughts. We can even view these brain patterns as preceding one’s acknowledgment of a given set of stimuli. Certain brain functions may often physiologically function in ways opposite of other brain functions as we see in many brain-disorder patients. In other words, there isn’t this simple soul encased in mere flesh and bones producing some psychic-phenomenon known as ‘choice.’ Rather, we are lots of processes a-work simultaneously. The brain centers responsible for slow-deliberative thought and action must and will contend with other brain centers—affecting or influencing decision making processes. Naturally, genetics have some important influence on the bio-engineering of certain proclivities.
This perfectly explains why some of us are more inclined than others towards addictive behaviors. It also allows us to take seriously the claims that addicts cannot or have enormously complicated challenges changing their abusive behaviors. Your point, then, would seem obvious and acceptable if we were merely one thing always in possession of our rational faculties AND it was just that obvious that we were. Evidently, it is hardly that obvious. This archaic view of self is what Dennett refers to as the ‘theater of the mind’ view: like a little person is somehow living in our minds viewing the outside world. However, and again, we have good reason to doubt this rather ancient view.
For addicts-wanting to change is certainly important. However, given the numerous internal and external influences on our behavior, we require far more than sheer will alone. This is why we are often asked by mental health professionals whether or not we have strong supports and whether or not we’re a part of some organized community that supports change—like AA and/or group therapy treatments.
There have often been times that I wished to change. There have been times that my “will” to change was greater than my will to remain in the old ways-so to speak. But the process of change is a hard path to follow for most addicts because it requires re-conditioning of mental behaviors, incorporating a different worldview related to one’s addiction, and re-creating different lifestyle choices and behaviors. Again, if this sort of thing could be reducible to mere wanting, then I’d still be drinking! After all, I could will to change at any time-or simply revise how I drink. Quite obviously, I cannot hope to choose to allow alcohol to be in my life as a part of my lifestyle choices. If I could in any way, I would love to. Choice and one of its consequences—‘wanting’ is not an option to me as it concerns alcohol if I wish to remain sober and ‘in control.’ We are complex system indeed!
Eric D.
now what?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 85
I haven't read the whole thing yet, as it's been a long day already, but this bit caught my attention: I'm quite certain you're oversimplifying a very complex phenomenon here.
Perhaps "in denial regarding" would strike closer to home.
d
So, if we’re to buy into this rather odd notion of choice, then we must assume that there’s some moral failing of those who say that they want to change but do not—for example, we must assume they’re all just lying about their internal experiences.
Perhaps "in denial regarding" would strike closer to home.
d
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hamilton, Ohio
Posts: 6
Huntress wrote,
“I'm quite certain you're oversimplifying a very complex phenomenon here.”
Actually the portion you cited was part of a response I had to the logical outcome of a point that you had been making. The whole citation of mine was:
“Well, there’s ambiguity in what you mean by “…addiction is wanting…” By ‘ambiguity’ I mean that addiction is typically defined as “a state of physiological or psychological dependence on a potentially harmful drug.” It's not clear what you would mean by "dependence," for example. What could it mean? Given this, you can mean (1) that ‘wanting’ means something like one’s mere desire to abuse above and beyond non-abuse. Or -(2) that such abuse of the drug(s) of choice has somehow been merely conditioned by one’s own volitional states- and of the action predicated thereupon. As a result, by mere choosing one can alter this ‘conditioning.’ Hence, one may just as well “choose” another course of action and condition himself otherwise. Neither one of these interpretations seem to make much sense.
For one thing, both of these approaches seem to assume a fully functional psychology of volition as ALWAYS ‘properly functional.' Yet, if this is the case, then addiction isn’t at all a psychological or physiological dependency, which implies the absence of control. If an ‘addict’ had full control over his/her actions, then we could freely choose to continue to use the drug of choice MORE responsibly. Moreover, if there’s NOTHING BUT one’s own wanting, and such a wanting is wholly up to the individual, then this implies that one WANTS to be an addict. Yet, both medical and case studies clearly reveal that addicts report WANTING to control their behavior and cannot! So, if we’re to buy into this rather odd notion of choice, then we must assume that there’s some moral failing of those who say that they want to change but do not—for example, we must assume they’re all just lying about their internal experiences. As a consequence, if this is the case, then addicts are not truly dependent, they’re really just morally and mentally deplorable individuals who do not, for any number of potential reasons, desiring to change at all. Naturally, this hardly seems likely.” [Emphasis mine]
The citation you referred to IS stating that the version of choice that your position seems to imply (outlined by logical inferences in the above first paragraph) IS INDEED an oversimplification. That was my whole point. If it is a mere issue of one’s will/choice-then the issue with addiction isn’t a psychological and/or physiological one, rather it becomes an issue of moral—mental failure. Obviously, I reject this analysis of ‘choice’ and ‘will.’ I reject the notion that addiction is a mere moral-mental failing! However, if we take seriously the implications in your position, we must accept that interpretation as possible. I, however, do not think that ‘will’ or ‘choice’ is THE central issue to addiction and other lifestyle-related questions.
When we posit that one’s will and choice is the central element here, and that such a thing is somehow the most relevant factor, then when those who say they cannot change on their own-we must assume that they are wrong! One implication is that they are lying. If you say that they could be self-deceived-or their emotional wherewithal is somehow compromised and as a result they cannot think clearly—or some other internal thing is ‘causing’ them to think wrongly—and such an internal thing is not a moral choice, then you’re making my argument! Self-deception, being somehow psychologically crippled or mentally compromised affects choice and one’s own ability to ‘choose’ clearly or rightly. The only way you could make addiction to be only- or mainly- about choice or will to change is if one knows and has full ability to alter his/her behavior at any and all times. Therefore, the failure to alter one’s behavior MUST BE a moral failing and not an internal inability to stop the addiction. This is a difficulty with the vague and catchy phrase: ““I think addiction is wanting your substance of choice more than you want to change.” The implications tied into this assertion are oversimplifying a complex phenomenon-indeed.
Eric D.
“I'm quite certain you're oversimplifying a very complex phenomenon here.”
Actually the portion you cited was part of a response I had to the logical outcome of a point that you had been making. The whole citation of mine was:
“Well, there’s ambiguity in what you mean by “…addiction is wanting…” By ‘ambiguity’ I mean that addiction is typically defined as “a state of physiological or psychological dependence on a potentially harmful drug.” It's not clear what you would mean by "dependence," for example. What could it mean? Given this, you can mean (1) that ‘wanting’ means something like one’s mere desire to abuse above and beyond non-abuse. Or -(2) that such abuse of the drug(s) of choice has somehow been merely conditioned by one’s own volitional states- and of the action predicated thereupon. As a result, by mere choosing one can alter this ‘conditioning.’ Hence, one may just as well “choose” another course of action and condition himself otherwise. Neither one of these interpretations seem to make much sense.
For one thing, both of these approaches seem to assume a fully functional psychology of volition as ALWAYS ‘properly functional.' Yet, if this is the case, then addiction isn’t at all a psychological or physiological dependency, which implies the absence of control. If an ‘addict’ had full control over his/her actions, then we could freely choose to continue to use the drug of choice MORE responsibly. Moreover, if there’s NOTHING BUT one’s own wanting, and such a wanting is wholly up to the individual, then this implies that one WANTS to be an addict. Yet, both medical and case studies clearly reveal that addicts report WANTING to control their behavior and cannot! So, if we’re to buy into this rather odd notion of choice, then we must assume that there’s some moral failing of those who say that they want to change but do not—for example, we must assume they’re all just lying about their internal experiences. As a consequence, if this is the case, then addicts are not truly dependent, they’re really just morally and mentally deplorable individuals who do not, for any number of potential reasons, desiring to change at all. Naturally, this hardly seems likely.” [Emphasis mine]
The citation you referred to IS stating that the version of choice that your position seems to imply (outlined by logical inferences in the above first paragraph) IS INDEED an oversimplification. That was my whole point. If it is a mere issue of one’s will/choice-then the issue with addiction isn’t a psychological and/or physiological one, rather it becomes an issue of moral—mental failure. Obviously, I reject this analysis of ‘choice’ and ‘will.’ I reject the notion that addiction is a mere moral-mental failing! However, if we take seriously the implications in your position, we must accept that interpretation as possible. I, however, do not think that ‘will’ or ‘choice’ is THE central issue to addiction and other lifestyle-related questions.
When we posit that one’s will and choice is the central element here, and that such a thing is somehow the most relevant factor, then when those who say they cannot change on their own-we must assume that they are wrong! One implication is that they are lying. If you say that they could be self-deceived-or their emotional wherewithal is somehow compromised and as a result they cannot think clearly—or some other internal thing is ‘causing’ them to think wrongly—and such an internal thing is not a moral choice, then you’re making my argument! Self-deception, being somehow psychologically crippled or mentally compromised affects choice and one’s own ability to ‘choose’ clearly or rightly. The only way you could make addiction to be only- or mainly- about choice or will to change is if one knows and has full ability to alter his/her behavior at any and all times. Therefore, the failure to alter one’s behavior MUST BE a moral failing and not an internal inability to stop the addiction. This is a difficulty with the vague and catchy phrase: ““I think addiction is wanting your substance of choice more than you want to change.” The implications tied into this assertion are oversimplifying a complex phenomenon-indeed.
Eric D.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hamilton, Ohio
Posts: 6
One Note:
You could mean something else by 'wanting' than one merely making a choice or a series of choices. If by 'want' you mean that one's wanting is a combination of internal and external factors of which one's ability to "choose" is only one factor, then we are most likley agreed. However, 'wanting' in the sentence you used implies a specialness about 'choice.' If by wanting you mean that one follows one's desires instead of 'choosing' to follow other desires--or what have you, then the above implications still apply.
Again, if 'in denial regarding' you mean 'choice' or choosing to ignore, then obviously moral wrong can well be assigned here. If you mean that numeorus internal factors 'cause' or influence choices, then my argument seems justified in that mere choice isn't enough! If there are non-moral elements contributing to one denying-then it seems odd to argue that such denial is an issue of choice!
Eric D.
You could mean something else by 'wanting' than one merely making a choice or a series of choices. If by 'want' you mean that one's wanting is a combination of internal and external factors of which one's ability to "choose" is only one factor, then we are most likley agreed. However, 'wanting' in the sentence you used implies a specialness about 'choice.' If by wanting you mean that one follows one's desires instead of 'choosing' to follow other desires--or what have you, then the above implications still apply.
Again, if 'in denial regarding' you mean 'choice' or choosing to ignore, then obviously moral wrong can well be assigned here. If you mean that numeorus internal factors 'cause' or influence choices, then my argument seems justified in that mere choice isn't enough! If there are non-moral elements contributing to one denying-then it seems odd to argue that such denial is an issue of choice!
Eric D.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Hamilton, Ohio
Posts: 6
One last note LOL!
You have to clarify how you connect denial or wanting to choice and 'other factors' more clearly than this if you want to make this more about personal responsibility. Those who've said that they cannot change are not arguing that choice has NO play here. Rather, they're arguing that it isn't the dominant force or that it is wholly sufficient FOR change. If you say otherwise, then you place addiction at the feet of the will. As a result, it would become, by logical necessity, a moral issue.
You have to clarify how you connect denial or wanting to choice and 'other factors' more clearly than this if you want to make this more about personal responsibility. Those who've said that they cannot change are not arguing that choice has NO play here. Rather, they're arguing that it isn't the dominant force or that it is wholly sufficient FOR change. If you say otherwise, then you place addiction at the feet of the will. As a result, it would become, by logical necessity, a moral issue.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: North America
Posts: 1,628
Hi Huntress, and welcome.
An important thing to note, where you are now, and how long you expect your professional life to be...you have noted a problem now, that you can still function with. Eventually it will catch up to you, and could destory your life. At that moment, with clarity you will look back and say "if only." Your awairness is key to not letting this happen to you.
There are confidental resources and information available to you, two sites that might be of interest are as follows (put http colon slash slash w w w dot before the rest of the items before putting them into your address bar):
npr.org/2011/07/13/137824872/army-tests-confidential-alcohol-abuse-program
and
hooah4health.com/default.htm
Best of luck to you, and thank you for your service. I look forward to hearing more from you.
An important thing to note, where you are now, and how long you expect your professional life to be...you have noted a problem now, that you can still function with. Eventually it will catch up to you, and could destory your life. At that moment, with clarity you will look back and say "if only." Your awairness is key to not letting this happen to you.
There are confidental resources and information available to you, two sites that might be of interest are as follows (put http colon slash slash w w w dot before the rest of the items before putting them into your address bar):
npr.org/2011/07/13/137824872/army-tests-confidential-alcohol-abuse-program
and
hooah4health.com/default.htm
Best of luck to you, and thank you for your service. I look forward to hearing more from you.
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