mama36

The problem with getting a sponsor so soon in my recovery, and while being very skeptical at this point, is that this person is only going to do as is done anytime AA is brought up to a person who thoroughly believes in it, they are going to tell me the same things I have heard here...that I follow AA and do the steps or I am wasting my time. That is really what it comes down to. Like I said, you can't reason with somebody regarding something that they completely believe in like AA because from what I have seen, there is no reasoning on this subject. Yes, you have all said do what fits you best, but in the next words it is still stated that you do it and you do it all the way or you will fail. Really what is being said by AA followers is you have to choose what is best for you and go with that...but when your way fails come back to us and we will save you...and truth be told when some of you read that statement you will be shaking your head, "oh yeah".

I am sorry to say, but I feel that AA is a Religion all it's own that has little or nothing to do with God for a lot of people and it's not one that I care to follow.

Donna

Squizz

No, that's not what he said at all. Re-read my post. Or do I need to spell it out for you? He was saying that while SOME people who stop going to meetings can remain sober (and I *have* seen it) the vast majority do pick up. And he didn't mention anything about failing.

LexieCat

I don't agree that you will fail if you don't follow the Twelve Steps. I can't possibly know that. If you try and fail, repeatedly, using your own way of doing things, yeah, then I might conclude that working the Steps may be your only hope of staying sober. Even then I couldn't know for sure, but I certainly would recommend it at that point.

It sounds as if you've made up your mind for now, so I won't argue with you. I wish you every success--we all deserve to be happy and healthy.

mama36

I have learned an awful lot on this thread, some good, some bad. Thanks for all of the input and posts. I think that this thread will be something for me to go and look back on when I need to. It is very interesting to see the posts fly on a topic like this. Yowsers.

Thanks all, you give me a lot to think about. I was feeling very down about AA before this thread and quite honestly I am not feeling the least bit better about it now, but that is mine to work out.

It's so...I don't even know the word...almost scary how deep some are in the belief system of AA...maybe there is something to it that I am just not going to be able to pick up unless I go to a meeting in 3D...

LexieCat

OK, I think we can ALL chill. It's easy to feel insecure, or overly confident, in early recovery. Heck, we are still getting our marbles back! At one of my home groups, people who are not group members but are celebrating anniversaries are given a couple of marbles. We are promised that we will keep getting them back if we stick with it.

LexieCat

Actually, I never did question any of it, but that's because I know that it works because I was married to someone who's been sober 30 years. He is one of the most emotionally healthy people I know. Nobody's perfect, but he's about as un-cult-ish as you can get. Yet he sponsors a lot of people, is an avid photographer and climbs mountains in his spare time.

A lot healthier than MY current lifestyle, even sober!

Squizz

You know.............it never ceases to amaze me at just how riled up people get over words on a monitor.

LexieCat

And it is always amazing to me how much people enjoy pushing other people's buttons.

Don't worry, most of us grow out of it.

LaFemme

Whoa...I go away for a few minutes and come back to a completely different thread.

In my experience..take everything you read online with a grain of salt...you can't see tone or body language in an online post so it is easy to take offense when none is intended.

SweetCityWoman

Questioning things is part of my nature and my profession - so it has always been how I deal with my life. I realize not everyone is like that. Again, each person finds their own way - and this is true in life and in recovery.

Squizz - I think people here are talking about some very powerful feelings and experiences so I assume your comment about not getting why people are so riled up over words on a monitor was not serious. Words can be very powerful whether in person on on a forum because real people are behind these words, right?

Dee74

OK I just deleted a whole lot of posts.
Not my favourite job in the world.

Whatever your POV - if you're heated, get up now, go away, relax, and come back later.

Threads where the participants can't remain civil will be closed.

lets all move on.
D

LaFemme

I was wondering where the voice of sanity was:-)

mama36

Sorry Dee...

Thanks to all for your input.

Touchy subject but I have learned a ton tonight.

D.

zbear23

IMO the AA fellowship is a community of shared beliefs....which pretty much defines "community." The PROGRAM of AA is a plan to identify the problem and apply a solution, and since I am the problem, it is up to me to change. Not the world or AA. The 12 steps changed me.

I am not particularly dogmatic, and frankly, I agree with Bill W. that AA is a "spiritual kindergarten," which begs the question....after a "spiritual awakening," what then? Some people move on or out of AA. Others continue to participate, finding the recovery community a positive place to associate with those of like mind. As for myself, I have moved on to what I consider more intensive methods of spiritual advancement....but in that I also include my AA philosophy of "practicing these principles in all my affairs." My continuing spiritual journey adds to my AA foundation. It doesn't negate it. I still attend meetings, but not out of fear of picking up a drink if I don't. Rather, it is an opportunity for me to share the love I've experienced in AA.

And AA clearly provides a spiritual solution. That solution is described in great detail in the literature and the Steps explicitly reference what has worked for others, and what is suggested as a "program of recovery." The entire program is suggested....not bits and pieces of it.

I'd suggest that those who are unprepared to "let go of their own ideas completely," investigate alternative methods to stay sober. AA is not a no-drinking program, but a design for living program. If that design is unacceptable....why stay? If I had issues with a particular faith or church belief system, I'd simply move on to one better suited to me personally. It would be the height of egotism to think that I could change it to suit me.

A spiritual awakening does not depend on being an AA member. But IMO, true AA recovery does depend on a spiritual awakening as a result of doing the 12 steps.

And one of the things that I've learned in my 12 step program is that what I have to offer is my own experience, strength and hope. As AA says, if you can drink like a gentleman (or a lady) our hats are off to you. If you can be happy, joyous and free simply by sitting in meetings....good for you! My own heart's desire goes way beyond just not drinking. The essence for me is to "recover" the faculty for real love that I seemed to have misplaced somehow. AA...the fellowshp and the steps....provided a process for me to do this. It also reminds me that when I look for blessings I get blessings...when I look for problems....I get problems. For me, the only way to address any sort of resentment I may have against AA or a meeting is to attempt to find a way to improve it....not to criticize it.

And acceptance is STILL the answer to all my problems.

blessings
zenbear

keithj

Very true in my observation. Now ask, how many thoroughly follow the path and work the Steps as suggested? It's probably right around that same 5% number.

Every year, I see hundreds of people fail to stay sober in AA because they never take the Steps as suggested, or they work parts of them they agree with and skip the ones they don't like.

Half measures just don't work with this deal.

One the other hand, every single person I've seen thoroughly work the Steps and continue to live by those principles has stayed sober. Every single one.

Agree with it, don't agree with it, do it or don't do it. That's up to you. But don't expect the promise of being recovered if you haven't taken the actions required to get there.

Bamboozle

Let's be real: it's 100% if everyone never picks up again no matter what the method.

There's a reason why only 5% stay sober no matter what programs used or no programs used. 95% don't make it. That number gives me chills. In my opinion it's pointless to go back and forth arguing why people fail. What folks should be concerned about is staying sober. It comes down to picking up or not picking up. And I'm not talking about this lightly or trying to belittle anything. Staying sober is next to impossible--that's why people do whatever they can to stay sober. If someone goes to several meetings a week and stays sober then that's what it takes. If someone does the steps and stays sober then that's what it takes. If someone uses SR and stays sober then that's what it takes. If someone chooses to do ANYTHING BUT USE then that's what it takes.

Seeing the failure rate I say folks should do what they must to stay sober, which translates into 'whatever works do it'.

WakeUp

Finally the voices of reason showed up. Thanks zenbear and keith.

LaFemme

I've actually heard a stat that's more like 20% regardless of how you do it...that's bad enough for me. With stats like this there really should be more r&d invested in finding a 100% cure.

RobbyRobot

These threads are interesting. For me, what kept me drunk and wasting my life for years was the illness of alcoholism rampant in my life. What keeps me, and has kept me sober now and for many years, is that my alcoholism illness is now, and has been, spiritually arrested.

I've been to AA for years. And I've also not been to AA for years. Did I drink while going or not going to meetings? No. Nada. Zilch. Nothing. Did I have the best ever sobriety while going to meetings? No. Not. Nope. Not the case.

This thread mentions percentage points -- things like 5% [and what ever else], like as if some actual value will have some real meaning that is useful. Sobriety is such a personal journey which is very much beyond quantifying the quality of that sobriety as a percentage point. For instance, I've never drank a drink of alcohol since after my first AA meeting? How rare is that? Alot more rare then 5% I'm thinking. How many members get sober right from the first day of their adventure and stay that way for another 29 years? Again, even less members, I'm thinking, from what I've come to know within the rooms. Yup, even less. I'm for sure in a minority "percentage" of lifetime experiences with in AA.

And you know what? So what, is what I say about it! LOL. The numbers are meaningless when it comes to arresting my alcoholism. I didn't drink again after AA simply because my alcoholism was not able to get me drinking, its not anything special about me. I can't drink if my alcoholism is arrested and locked up totally within my sobriety. It's not rocket science, its living a spiritual sober recovered-from-alcoholism life. Why did so many other members, as a percentage compared to me, keep drinking after going into AA? Well, because their alcoholism still ruled their lives, is the only answer worth any value. Was it their personal choice to keep drinking while being ruled by alcoholism? No. Did they also want to not drink again from day one, just like me? Yes! And the many times they stayed out drinking, and coming back, while I just stayed sober, are we different alcoholics? No.

I sit here today with a great life; with all the promises as promised; with my alcoholism done for good and all; with my day to day life journey always worth living; and I KNOW from the deepest deep of my heart that I'm an alcoholic no different than any other alcoholic who has the illness of alcoholism. So if my alcoholism is from the same illness, why is my journey with AA without experiences of returning to more drinking? like has happened to so many other members in AA? Well, the simple truth is this: I just did not pick up the next drink and drink it. Just like that pure and simple. I just didn't drink again. That's what got me here today. What gives my life quality is of course an ever changing mixture of living a spiritual life and the program, the fellowship, meetings, service to others; everchanging yes, but all of these are essential to have that sober quality, for me I'm talking about.

The thing is, I only ever did [and still true today] I only ever did recovery, and a recovery program, to simply not ever get drunk again. All the sobriety, spiritual living, the promises, all of it <-- only became important and worthy to me AFTER I really understood I didn't have to ever get drunk again, that my alcoholism was not running the show anymore, that I could be myself without being a drunk alcoholic. With out the booze, eventually all the good stuff made sense, and so for me, it was all gravy, the good and the bad, after that last drink back in July 1981.

It breaks my heart to see so many fellow alcoholics have the solutions to their drinking be almost within their grasp, and yet because of the ravages of their unchecked illness of alcoholism, another drinking day gets written into their journey with AA. It also breaks my heart to see fellow AA members blame themselves, blame others, blame whatever they may say about programs and meetings and fellowships, and what-have-you... rarely, though do I see or hear those same drinking members blame their drinking on their own illness of alcoholism. period. Just alcoholism. alcoholism itself. --> I. Can't. Say. It. Enough. Alcoholics. Drink. Because. Of. Alcoholism. <-- It's nothing to do with anything personal, even though it sure seems personal to the drinking alcoholic. I know, I've been that drinking alcoholic too.

Our sobriety is personal to us. Our drinking as alcoholics is always alcoholic drinking, and so should never be put on the backs of the drinking alcoholic. For anybody else, they can choose whatever, but for alcoholics, drinking while being alcoholic is drinking to die, and being sober while alcoholic is so much more than just not drinking. When alcoholics stop drinking, and stayed stopped, they either flourish or they keep suffering because it's all about quality when we put down that last drink. Its all personal after that last drink. It's all about us and our sober lives if that last drink is to stay that last drink for good and all

FWIW, I do go to AA when I do, and when I don't, I don't. The program has always worked for me, the meetings have always worked for me, and the fellowship has always worked for me. My sobriety has always worked for me. The only thing which has never worked for me is my alcoholism, and my alcoholism has failed to get me drunk for many years now, and for that I'm a grateful alcoholic.



Cheers!

Robby

augustwest

I have no opinion on what program, or lack thereof, that someone uses to get clean & sober. I simply want suffering addicts to find relief and a happy and meaningful life, by whatever means they choose.

In the rooms we share experience, strength, and hope. When someone, regardless of their amount of clean time, isn't doing that they're not practicing the principles. I don't like preaching in the rooms, even if i agree with what the person is sharing. It's ineffective, especially to the newcomer.

But, that has not been my primary experience in the rooms. Such behavior has been an outlier in my experience.

And when someone shares that declining meeting attendance precedes relapse in members, dammit i believe them, because i've seen it too. Doesn't make it a finite truth and i don't have to like it, but that is the pattern.

Meeting attendance and belief in the program are a personal thing. That which appears like a "religion" or cult-ish to a newcomer appears that way because, well, it appears that way. Big whoop. It's entirely possible that the people engaged in these activities are actually enjoying themselves and doing it because they want to and it benefits their life. What difference does it make what it "looks like" to me?

I thought 12 steppers were morons, mindless drones, etc. etc.. at first. I had a plethora of judgments and opinions that were baseless. Eventually, i decided that it would be logical to actually attempt the program as suggested before i leave with strong opinions based on nothing more than appearances.

I'm grateful for NA today and it is a joy to attend meetings, do service work, and fellowship with other recovering addicts. I'm happy and content with it's place in my life.

Had i walked away without actually getting a sponsor, working steps, getting a homegroup i would've missed out on this beautiful experience.

But hey, everyones entitled to do as they wish and again i just wish everyone the best in their recovery. Anybody that shows up is going to be treated with love and respect by me, and most everyone else in the room.

But i don't think the rooms are a place to argue the merits(not saying anyone is suggesting this in this thread) of the program or place judgments on the manner in which people work their program.

The particulars are indeed personal, but a program is An ordered list of events to take place or procedures to be followed per Webster's. So there are things to do in this program. Attend meetings, STEP WORK, service, sponsorship etc... How we do those things is personal, and changes, but that is the program.

I can buy P90X and only do the exercises that i like. That's my right. But do i have an accurate experience of P90X or a basis for opinion of it's merit as an exercise program if that's the route i take?

Most meetings in my area are open meetings, so anybody is welcome to attend and that's a good thing. Anybody with the desire to quit can proclaim themselves a member. It requires action and work to make the program work for me. To feel and be a part of...

Whatever works, works. I do wish that those who don't try a 12 step program beyond attending a meeting or two would refrain from negative comments that go beyond their personal experience. Such ignorant opinions kept me out of the rooms for years. I finally decided to have my experience based on fact from personal experience and am glad that i did. I try to do this in life in general today.

This has been long and rambling, lol. Good day everyone! However you get clean and sober, i hope you do it! And that you find happiness!