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Sometimes there are no limits to their bottoms.

Old 07-12-2013, 01:14 PM
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Sometimes there are no limits to their bottoms.

My ex addict bf lost his job, lost his relationship, has received 2 DUI’s in the last 4 weeks, crashed his truck twice, paid to have it repaired then smashed it again. While the truck was being repaired he rented a vehicle – which he lost. Can’t remember where he left it. The police are now looking for it. And his brother has hidden his truck not to control him but to attempt to control his hurting or killing someone. He appeared in court on Wed under the influence – took 6 xanax prior to court and couldn’t stay awake and his head hit the seat in front of him. His attorney asked him to leave the courtroom and the police had to baby sit him. 2 DUI’’s and a charge of having a controlled substance was postponed until mid Aug. His brother pleaded with the judge to take his license before he kills someone and the judge said his hands were tied.

The night before the state police had picked him up walking on a major highway at 1 or 2 in the morning, he was looking for his car he lost. He thinks he may have left it at the drug store…really??

Logic…..there is NONE when it comes to active addiction. Trust me when I tell you it is a progressive disease and one that they DO NOT CHOSE to have but it certainly does have them.

Someone with already low self esteem has no limits to their bottoms. They feel bad about themselves and about what has happened and the lower they feel the lower they will allow the disease to take them.

I have detached physically and for the most part emotionally and I am surviving!! Hearing about what happened in court has made me feel NUMB, not sure what to feel and if it’s just a bunch of emotions all jumbled up that equal NUMB.

I truly am doing ok, working my own recovery, trying to stay strong and thinking back to the first time he relapsed and how much better I am handling it this time. I have to thank SR and so many wonderful people here who have truly helped me along the way. Al-anon has also been a big part as well as just focusing on ME.

Is it heart wrenching seeing someone you love self destruct, you bet it is but today I can say I am a stronger person and I will handle what ever life puts in my path from now on. I am far more prepared for this today then I ever was.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:30 PM
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I've always been confused about the expectation that we hit 'rock-bottom' and turn around. I think I hit 'rock-bottom' and drank more to deal with it!!!

Really, there is no hole so deep that we can't dig deeper!! If we hit a layer of rock, we can always find some sort of tool to dig through that, too. A little dynamite and you can always go lower!!
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DG0409 View Post

Really, there is no hole so deep that we can't dig deeper!!
I do believe this. Every time we think our daughter's situation can't get worse, it really does. We took her to the ER last week so high on meth she had to be restrained and sedated. She said she took it to keep from doing heroin, which is her drug of choice. Says she can't stand to be alone with her brain and thoughts, but won't get help for any chemical imbalance she might have that makes it seem impossible to her to live in her head.

We talked to the ER Doc about her addiction and they've seen her several times. He said that unfortunately her bottom might be death, and that's the horrid reality of it.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DG0409 View Post
I've always been confused about the expectation that we hit 'rock-bottom' and turn around. I think I hit 'rock-bottom' and drank more to deal with it!!!

Really, there is no hole so deep that we can't dig deeper!! If we hit a layer of rock, we can always find some sort of tool to dig through that, too. A little dynamite and you can always go lower!!
I think this is why so many medical professionals now say that "hitting rock bottom' is such a dangerous concept to promote, since addiction is progressive if not treated. The mind under the constant influence of drugs can reach a point where all of the negative and horrible just becomes the norm, and there is no sense of bottom.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:03 AM
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I think the show Intervention popularized the "rock bottom" theory, that all addicts have to hit it before seeking treatment, which IMO is a crap term used by only amateurs. Again just my opinion- there is only one real "rock bottom" and that is when a toe tag is needed.

However, I do believe all addicts and codies hit a bottom of sorts before wanting to find a better way...which of course is different for everyone. For an addict a bottom may be as high as spending too much money on a one-time weekend binge, or as low as selling ones body. For a codie it may be as high as a one-time snooping incident or as low as being unfaithful or compromising your own morals.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:08 AM
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Sometimes, rock bottom is death. My father died from cirrhosis of the liver but he never would admit that he was an alcoholic. Denial. It's pretty much part and parcel of addiction.
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Old 07-13-2013, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cynical one View Post
I think the show Intervention popularized the "rock bottom" theory, that all addicts have to hit it before seeking treatment, which IMO is a crap term used by only amateurs.
I think rock bottom comes from AA's book. It makes sense sort of because it was established a long time ago and I dont think they understood as much about addiction then. The more I read about AA, a lot of it seems archaic and conflicting with what is known about addiction today.
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Old 07-13-2013, 05:31 AM
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It's been a few since I've read the Big Book. So, I used the Big Book search engine. Not only could I not find "rock bottom", but I couldn't find where it mentions bottoms at all. And, while I do agree that medicine and science has greatly advanced over the years...a hole in the soul is still a hole in the soul.

AA® BIG BOOK® SEARCH ENGINE

If you find AA archaic and conflicting, you may want to check out other forms of recovery like SMART, AVRT, or CRAFT.

I was reading about AVRT the other night. They say the program is effortless. All an addict has to do is to make a Big Plan and say "I will never use again. And, I will never change my mind" and then they are completely recovered.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:32 AM
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For anyone who doubts that at the time the Big Book was written, the knowledge and understanding of addiction was somehow sparse or lacking, I suggest they read The Doctor's Opinion - I believe it describes the affliction quite clearly.

Big Book Online - the doctor's opinion
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:16 AM
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Atalose, your post makes me think of my best friend. She spiraled like this, down, down, and down some more. She died last fall. It is heartbreaking to have front row seats to someone's self destruction. And the effects on everyone close to her are still profound.

Prayers from me today,
~T
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:28 AM
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The big book says its is Spiritual the whole book talks about a power greater than ourselves which to me is god !! There is no other way that I have seen work for this we are spiritual sick no human power could reveal are addictions but god could and would if he were sought !! People don't get that or want to hear about god !! But when the pain is so great that is the only time we cry out to god for help !! It had to be that way for me and especially again with my codependency we don't know god is all we need til he is all that is left then we ask him for help
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:41 PM
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2 DUI's in a month??!! Going to court high?? Wow, he's lucky not to be in jail already. He seems like he knows he is hitting a legal bottom and may just stay high to avoid the issues. Of course, eventually he will have to stop using and deal with the legal drama that he surely will find himself in.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:32 PM
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OMW sounds like he is in a whole lot of trouble. I am sorry that you have to go through this it is devastating to watch a loved one go through active adiction. You are so brave and so strong.
Lots of Huggs your way
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:51 PM
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I don’t want to derail your thread onto another topic, but since the tiny comment I made has been under attack I feel like I should clarify so as to not mislead people who reading this.

I have been doing a lot of reading over many weeks now trying to understand about addiction and about what it takes for people to recover. Im sorry if you found my comment to be offensive about AA being somewhat archaic, but I do see this in many aspects and I was only being truthful. Im not in any specific recovery program at the moment but I am trying to learn. I cant commit myself to things when I don’t know what they are about, or if I believe in what they are promoting. I know one thing though, if addiction is a disease then I wouldn’t tell someone sick with it that their problem is a hole in their soul. Its not about the soul, they may have mental issues or emotional issues, but I don’t see it being a problem with their soul.

Yes there are references to rock bottom in AA and they have been said by the founders themselves. Maybe it wasn’t in the big AA book, but it is in other writings and teachings of AA. I have a feeling some of you already know this though and only latched onto the fact I maybe referenced the wrong document. This is from one of the founders Bill W:

http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-6_threetalkstomed.pdf

“ But deflation is just what we A.A.’s are looking for…more utterly we can smash the delusion that the alcoholic can get over alcoholism “on his own,” or that someday he may be able to drink like a gentleman, the more successful we are bound to be.

In fact we aim to produce a “crisis,” to cause him to “hit bottom” as A.A.’s say. Of course you will understand that this is all done by indirection. We never pronounce sentences nor do we tell any alcoholic what he must do. We don’t even tell him he is an alcoholic. Relating the seriousness of our own cases, we leave him to draw his conclusions. But once he has accepted the fact that he is an alcoholic and the further fact that he is powerless to recover unaided, the battle is half won. As the A.A.’s have it, “he is hooked.” He is caught as if in a psychological vise. If the jaws of it do not grip him tightly enough at first, more drinking will almost invariably turn up the screw to the point where he will cry — “enough.” Then, as we say, he is “softened up.” This reduces him to a state of complete dependence on whatever or whoever can stop his drinking. He is in exactly the same mental fix as the cancer patient who becomes dependent, abjectly dependent if you will, on what you men of science do for cancer. Better still he becomes “sweetly reasonable,” truly open-minded, as only the dying can be. Under these conditions, accepting the spiritual implications of the A.A. program presents no difficulty even to the sophisticate. “


Originally Posted by cynical one View Post
It's been a few since I've read the Big Book. So, I used the Big Book search engine. Not only could I not find "rock bottom", but I couldn't find where it mentions bottoms at all. And, while I do agree that medicine and science has greatly advanced over the years...a hole in the soul is still a hole in the soul.

If you find AA archaic and conflicting, you may want to check out other forms of recovery like SMART, AVRT, or CRAFT.
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Old 07-13-2013, 03:06 PM
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I have known several people whose only bottom was death. It is terrible to watch someone destroy themselves. It sounds very painful to continue to watch this spiral. Is it possible for you to step away and stop watching him spiral? I've been there where I keep watching even though it is painful. My addicted step-daughter continues to spiral. I kept thinking she'd finally reached her bottom. I thought maybe jail was her bottom. (It wasn't.) it is obvious that homelessness isn't a bottom for her either. (She's been homeless for several months now.) sometimes, I find myself checking up on her--I look her up on the Internet to see her latest arrest. It just leaves me thinking about how awful it is. I don't know if I'm watching for something that seems hopeful? I guess part of it is I feel some relief when they put her in jail for a couple of days because I know where she is and that she is safe.

It's good that you feel detached, but it's still hard to watch. For me, I may feel detached for awhile, and then something will set off a wave of emotions. Take care.
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Old 07-13-2013, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by OneNightAWeek View Post
... but since the tiny comment I made has been under attack...
You give bad information and when corrected your comment is "under attack". Really?
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Old 07-13-2013, 07:38 PM
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That is really sad. I am sorry. My x has lost his wife, child, job, business, family...and still keeps on going. My sister use to say "wow, he just keeps on digging. And while he digs he says, I'll show you!" and he just kept and keeps digging. Where and when it will end is yet to be seen. It drives me crazy not to know.

I have said this many times, but I will never understand the pull of drugs. EVER!

Hang in there, and best wishes on YOUR recovery.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:18 PM
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I have 5 close friends in recovery. I only knew one of them when they were using. Some have been in prison, lost children, prostituted themselves, lived on the streets and they all tell me that a person will not get better until they are just tired of it and want to. I can't even imagine any of them doing any of these things. I wouldn't even guess that they had this stuff in their past. They don't talk really of a bottom but more of a getting personally really tired of the life and the drain that it is. I tried to ask if they enjoyed doing it or if it was fun or what. It is just really hard for someone who has never been involved in it to "get it". Anyway I have seen many turn things around but it only happens when that person has had enough and as they all tell me "they are done". Like it runs its course or something. One thing for sure is that no one can make a difference in making an addict want to stop from what they all tell me it is a decision they come to on their own when they are ready.
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Old 07-13-2013, 08:25 PM
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I agree. Until they get sick and tired of being sick and tired, nothing changes. Same for the codependent.
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Old 07-14-2013, 07:04 AM
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(((((Atalose)))))

What an excellent description of the downward spiral of addiction!!! In AA it is referred to as "being sick and tired of being sick and tired."

(((((ONAW)))))

Yes, 'rock bottom' is referenced in other writings, but not in the Big Book of AA. And because of this, many treatment rehabs do talk about Rock Bottom and it has taken on a meaning of its own.

Bottom is bottom, I have seen many A's reach bottom after bottom and hit the final one, never having found recovery.

I have seen others (myself) included dig the hole so deep that it looks like they can never get out, but they do find recovery and live a sober productive life.

I do believe that what happened above is those of us who have been around for a long time do try to keep information on here as accurate as possible.

As to the BB of AA being archaic I TOTALLY AGREE. I am one of those who tell newcomers, when they are having the insomnia of early recovery that a sure way to fall asleep is to read the BB of AA, works every time. HOWEVER, that being said, archaic or not, it does show a program of recovery, and how to work that program through the 12 Steps that has and continues to work for many.

The BB of AA is about what WORKED for them. A very simple program for VERY COMPLICATED people. And it still works today for those that grasp on to others that have recovered.

Yes, there are a lot of other programs now that seem to be having some positive results with addiction and I applaud them. However, for those like myself, that found recovery before the '90's AA and NA (and NA was fairly young then, compared to AA) were really the only game in town!

Read other books written back in 1935 to 1940 and they too will seem archaic. Two that immediately come to mind are Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead" and yet they do make sense to this day (maybe more so with the current political situation, lol) as does the AA Big Book for those that have reached the point where they WANT recovery as much or more so than they NEED recovery.

Love and hugs,
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