Do all the lies and deceit make sense in an active alcoholics’ mind?
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Do all the lies and deceit make sense in an active alcoholics’ mind?
I’m new to posting in this forum, feel a bit uncomfortable as this is such an amazing place for people in need, struggling with recovery or family and close friends. I don’t want to take airtime from them.
My long time Ex BF (on and off for 20 years) is an alcoholic. He was told 7 years ago when in the hospital for alcohol that he would die if he didn’t stop. He hasn’t, rarely believes he has a problem, and of course have seen him go downhill fast over recent years. He has lost high powered jobs and seems unemployable, but looking.
I love him and stay in way too close contact as I am married with children. Many issues with this that I am working on....
I’m trying to understand if all the deceit and lies and headgames are logical in an AH’s mind. When sober, he seems to remember, but shows no remorse, says it’s all because I’m crazy, of course he is going to act that way....
I’m trying to understand if that reaction is actually what the AH believes, or is it a natural reaction so the fingers don’t point to him, or is it just covering up because they are generally wasted and making bad decisions.
every day I wake up and give hope that I can help him (and myself) find order and a plan to get him moving in the right direction (it doesn’t need to be with me) but it never, ever works. Something always happens. He either gets wasted, blames me screwing it all up (I texted too many times, I asked him to peomise he would be there, promise he would answer the phone) or actually does something terrible and I flip out. Always something.
is this purposeful in an AH mind or does this seem like normal and ok to an AH?
thank you for any insight and input. I read a lot on this site and try to educate myself to understand and inform, but just at a loss to truly comprehend.
My long time Ex BF (on and off for 20 years) is an alcoholic. He was told 7 years ago when in the hospital for alcohol that he would die if he didn’t stop. He hasn’t, rarely believes he has a problem, and of course have seen him go downhill fast over recent years. He has lost high powered jobs and seems unemployable, but looking.
I love him and stay in way too close contact as I am married with children. Many issues with this that I am working on....
I’m trying to understand if all the deceit and lies and headgames are logical in an AH’s mind. When sober, he seems to remember, but shows no remorse, says it’s all because I’m crazy, of course he is going to act that way....
I’m trying to understand if that reaction is actually what the AH believes, or is it a natural reaction so the fingers don’t point to him, or is it just covering up because they are generally wasted and making bad decisions.
every day I wake up and give hope that I can help him (and myself) find order and a plan to get him moving in the right direction (it doesn’t need to be with me) but it never, ever works. Something always happens. He either gets wasted, blames me screwing it all up (I texted too many times, I asked him to peomise he would be there, promise he would answer the phone) or actually does something terrible and I flip out. Always something.
is this purposeful in an AH mind or does this seem like normal and ok to an AH?
thank you for any insight and input. I read a lot on this site and try to educate myself to understand and inform, but just at a loss to truly comprehend.
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I’m new to posting in this forum, feel a bit uncomfortable as this is such an amazing place for people in need, struggling with recovery or family and close friends. I don’t want to take airtime from them.
I’m trying to understand if that reaction is actually what the AH believes, or is it a natural reaction so the fingers don’t point to him, or is it just covering up because they are generally wasted and making bad decisions.
every day I wake up and give hope that I can help him (and myself) find order and a plan to get him moving in the right direction (it doesn’t need to be with me) but it never, ever works.
I must ask, why do you continue to try to find plans for him when he obviously doesn't want to quit right now?
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I've often wrestled with this question myself. My own experience, and what I read here, is that As lie to protect their addiction, but their defensiveness makes me think that on some level they know it's a lie. What I don't know is whether that level is sub-conscious.
They can be so desperate to hang onto the addiction they'll say anything. Your EXABF lies when he talks to you, or denies, because he sees you as a threat to his drinking. Whether he knows the seriousness when he's alone is another matter - my guess is probably but the knowledge is shoved away somewhere.
Maybe you're thinking he lacks the information that this is very bad for his health, and that's why you point it out to him? He knows - the hospital told him. Like millions of smokers, he's willing to take that risk as long as it isn't happening right now.
They can be so desperate to hang onto the addiction they'll say anything. Your EXABF lies when he talks to you, or denies, because he sees you as a threat to his drinking. Whether he knows the seriousness when he's alone is another matter - my guess is probably but the knowledge is shoved away somewhere.
Maybe you're thinking he lacks the information that this is very bad for his health, and that's why you point it out to him? He knows - the hospital told him. Like millions of smokers, he's willing to take that risk as long as it isn't happening right now.
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My H lies by ommision. Even though I know what's going on he thinks he's getting away with it. It is a defense mechanism for him and he probably figures for our marriage. The question I ask myself is how much I can tolerate?
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I must ask, why do you continue to try to find plans for him when he obviously doesn't want to quit right now?[/QUOTE]
I don’t think my intentions are to help him quit drinking. I know I can’t control that. I think I am trying to help him with a plan for a better foundation. For example, getting a job- let’s just work on getting a decent job (not holding out for the high powered job he used to have). Let’s focusing on getting back in shape and exercizing. Finding a home (he goes back and forth between hotels and friends and his parents).
and when he does that, then my hopes is he will focus on his drinking. He knows he drinks too much and he knows it’s causing problems. I don’t believe he realizes the extent, since he blames others for life falling apart.
I wonder if someone like me is making it harder for him. Seems so simple in my mind, let’s just make a plan and do it. I know it’s not the same for an AH.
he rarely wants to talk to me when he is in a very bad place, and he will disappear. Which is of course when I double down trying to get in touch with him. he Will talk to me when he is in a good place or make it seem like he is in a good place. and as you all know that can change very quickly with an AH, so he will make plans and then change at the very last minute and blame me for it.
I don’t think my intentions are to help him quit drinking. I know I can’t control that. I think I am trying to help him with a plan for a better foundation. For example, getting a job- let’s just work on getting a decent job (not holding out for the high powered job he used to have). Let’s focusing on getting back in shape and exercizing. Finding a home (he goes back and forth between hotels and friends and his parents).
and when he does that, then my hopes is he will focus on his drinking. He knows he drinks too much and he knows it’s causing problems. I don’t believe he realizes the extent, since he blames others for life falling apart.
I wonder if someone like me is making it harder for him. Seems so simple in my mind, let’s just make a plan and do it. I know it’s not the same for an AH.
he rarely wants to talk to me when he is in a very bad place, and he will disappear. Which is of course when I double down trying to get in touch with him. he Will talk to me when he is in a good place or make it seem like he is in a good place. and as you all know that can change very quickly with an AH, so he will make plans and then change at the very last minute and blame me for it.
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I don't know if you are making it harder for him or not. But I can tell you that you can't want it for him. He doesn't need you to make a plan to eat better, exercise, get a job, make a better life. He's an adult and can figure all of that out himself. He's just clearly not interested in it at the moment.
For your own sake and his, I suggest you find a way to accept him for who he is right now, and let go of what you believe he can or should be. It is his life, and he gets to live it any way he chooses, even if you don't like it.
For your own sake and his, I suggest you find a way to accept him for who he is right now, and let go of what you believe he can or should be. It is his life, and he gets to live it any way he chooses, even if you don't like it.
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I don't know if getting a job will be the answer. I know people who tried that to help the alcoholic and besides going broke by buying them things like transportation the job wound up a source for more bar money and associated life.
Until he wants to change after he accepts he has a problem there's a chance he could change. From what I've read or observed longtime adult alcoholics and addicts are some of the hardest to change. Setting aside the substance they been living the same life for so long they don't know any other way.
The lies, deceit etc are common. The alcohol didn't manufacture them it just made them easier. Which could be an indicator of their true character.
Until he voluntarily asks for/goes into rehab doing it for someone else won't work. It would probably wind up being a timeout. Then right back to his old habits and haunts.
Until he wants to change after he accepts he has a problem there's a chance he could change. From what I've read or observed longtime adult alcoholics and addicts are some of the hardest to change. Setting aside the substance they been living the same life for so long they don't know any other way.
The lies, deceit etc are common. The alcohol didn't manufacture them it just made them easier. Which could be an indicator of their true character.
Until he voluntarily asks for/goes into rehab doing it for someone else won't work. It would probably wind up being a timeout. Then right back to his old habits and haunts.
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I asked a question like this to a panel of AA's at an Alanon convention; ie when in the addiction how did it make sense. One of the AA's related his story of using- the usual sordid details, but in the end when he could no longer hide it there was a part of him that was relieved it was now all out in the open. Which perhaps suggests some recognize the deceit and selfishness at some level, but others may not.
These days my concern is to mind my own boundaries and conduct. For my money the AA Big Book and 12&12 are the clearest answer to the agonized Why????!!! that I was feeling before I got into recovery. I think its likely my perceptions of "why" are biased by all the Alanon work I do OTOH I've not come across other explanations so eloquently corroborated by recovering addicts I've gotten to know personally.
These days my concern is to mind my own boundaries and conduct. For my money the AA Big Book and 12&12 are the clearest answer to the agonized Why????!!! that I was feeling before I got into recovery. I think its likely my perceptions of "why" are biased by all the Alanon work I do OTOH I've not come across other explanations so eloquently corroborated by recovering addicts I've gotten to know personally.
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this is the problem with trying to be a Life Coach to someone with an addiction, when there is little understanding of the nature of the illness.
getting a job, joining a gym, eating better - he doesn't WANT any of those things because they get in between him and his alcohol. and none of those things will "work" to help him suddenly desire a sober life.
i am curious - you state you are married with children. most consider that a full time job. how does your husband feel about all the time and energy you devote to your EX bf? how much time does this take away from your family - both in actual time, but also in mental direction.
your ex bf is perfectly with his life the way it is it's the easier softer way - couch surfin', no job, no expectations. all that shortens the distance between his hand and the next drink. he was told seven years ago that drinking would kill him - obviously that is irrelevant to HIM.
so what does all this focus on him DO for YOU? our choices, good and bad, always come with a pay off, also good or bad. it seems you hold onto some hope of you two having a life together again...
(it doesn’t need to be with me)
getting a job, joining a gym, eating better - he doesn't WANT any of those things because they get in between him and his alcohol. and none of those things will "work" to help him suddenly desire a sober life.
i am curious - you state you are married with children. most consider that a full time job. how does your husband feel about all the time and energy you devote to your EX bf? how much time does this take away from your family - both in actual time, but also in mental direction.
your ex bf is perfectly with his life the way it is it's the easier softer way - couch surfin', no job, no expectations. all that shortens the distance between his hand and the next drink. he was told seven years ago that drinking would kill him - obviously that is irrelevant to HIM.
so what does all this focus on him DO for YOU? our choices, good and bad, always come with a pay off, also good or bad. it seems you hold onto some hope of you two having a life together again...
(it doesn’t need to be with me)
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and when he does that, then my hopes is he will focus on his drinking. He knows he drinks too much and he knows it’s causing problems. I don’t believe he realizes the extent, since he blames others for life falling apart.
As SK said, really, with all people, you need to accept them just the way they are. He is a couch surfing alcoholic. If he wanted to change that then he would need to change it. How long have you been at this? Have you seen any progress?
The only help that would really help right now would be to give him a ride to an AA meeting, IF he asks you to.
At the end of the day, he is still a grown adult and gets to make that decision of how he lives.
I know that's probably not what you want to hear, but he is drinking while you are banging your head against the wall trying to solve something that isn't really required (ie: he hasn't asked you to solve it for him).
He obviously likes your attention. For your own sake perhaps focus more on yourself. If you are going to talk to him, unless he asks for a ride to an AA meeting, you are pretty much wasting your time with suggestions.
You might find these articles helpful: http://www.bma-wellness.com/papers/A..._Lies_Rel.html
"the addict begins to deny the truth to others as well as to himself. He becomes a practiced and profligate liar in all matters related to the defense and preservation of his addiction, even though prior to the onset of his addictive illness, and often still in areas as yet untouched by the addiction, he may be scrupulously honest.
First the addict lies to himself about his addiction, then he begins to lie to others. Lying, evasion, deception, manipulation, spinning and other techniques for avoiding or distorting the truth are necessary parts of the addictive process. They precede the main body of the addiction like military sappers and shock troops, mapping and clearing the way for its advance and protecting it from hostile counterattacks".
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I remember, quite late in our life together, seeing an ad for some clinic or spa to treat addiction on TV. AH watched it to the end and said, "I don't understand how someone gets addicted to drugs."
**facepalm**
**facepalm**
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Originally Posted by trailmix 
Welcome Izz4u, no need to feel uncomfortable at all, we are here to support!
It can be all these things and probably is. Yes, they can tend to live in their own "world" which doesn't necessarily make any sense to you.
You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it (the 3 c's). An alcoholic will quit when he is ready and not before.
I must ask, why do you continue to try to find plans for him when he obviously doesn't want to quit right now?
It can be all these things and probably is. Yes, they can tend to live in their own "world" which doesn't necessarily make any sense to you.
You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it (the 3 c's). An alcoholic will quit when he is ready and not before.
I must ask, why do you continue to try to find plans for him when he obviously doesn't want to quit right now?
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
this is the problem with trying to be a Life Coach to someone with an addiction, when there is little understanding of the nature of the illness.
getting a job, joining a gym, eating better - he doesn't WANT any of those things because they get in between him and his alcohol. and none of those things will "work" to help him suddenly desire a sober life.
i am curious - you state you are married with children. most consider that a full time job. how does your husband feel about all the time and energy you devote to your EX bf? how much time does this take away from your family - both in actual time, but also in mental direction.
your ex bf is perfectly with his life the way it is it's the easier softer way - couch surfin', no job, no expectations. all that shortens the distance between his hand and the next drink. he was told seven years ago that drinking would kill him - obviously that is irrelevant to HIM.
so what does all this focus on him DO for YOU? our choices, good and bad, always come with a pay off, also good or bad. it seems you hold onto some hope of you two having a life together again...
(it doesn’t need to be with me)
getting a job, joining a gym, eating better - he doesn't WANT any of those things because they get in between him and his alcohol. and none of those things will "work" to help him suddenly desire a sober life.
i am curious - you state you are married with children. most consider that a full time job. how does your husband feel about all the time and energy you devote to your EX bf? how much time does this take away from your family - both in actual time, but also in mental direction.
your ex bf is perfectly with his life the way it is it's the easier softer way - couch surfin', no job, no expectations. all that shortens the distance between his hand and the next drink. he was told seven years ago that drinking would kill him - obviously that is irrelevant to HIM.
so what does all this focus on him DO for YOU? our choices, good and bad, always come with a pay off, also good or bad. it seems you hold onto some hope of you two having a life together again...
(it doesn’t need to be with me)
my H does not know that I am in contact with him and I hide the mental energy spent worrying about him very well. Awful to admit that, but it’s the truth.
He has no reason (that I’m aware of) to be better, to stop drinking. Has told me that many times. He would slow down when he was living at home- so his parents did not see. But when he wanted to get drunk, he just wouldn’t come home. Doesn’t an alcoholic need a reason to be a better person?
I don’t know if it’s egotistical to think that could be me. Or just crazy. Or worthy of consideration.
it’s been half my life worrying about him- married or not.
I prob need the cold hard truth from folks here on how an AH thinks, when and how they desire help as I write this. I’m sure my needs and insecurities are tangled up in how I’m trying to approach it. 🙁
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Originally Posted by schnappi99
I asked a question like this to a panel of AA's at an Alanon convention; ie when in the addiction how did it make sense. One of the AA's related his story of using- the usual sordid details, but in the end when he could no longer hide it there was a part of him that was relieved it was now all out in the open. Which perhaps suggests some recognize the deceit and selfishness at some level, but others may not.
These days my concern is to mind my own boundaries and conduct. For my money the AA Big Book and 12&12 are the clearest answer to the agonized Why????!!! that I was feeling before I got into recovery. I think its likely my perceptions of "why" are biased by all the Alanon work I do OTOH I've not come across other explanations so eloquently corroborated by recovering addicts I've gotten to know personally.
These days my concern is to mind my own boundaries and conduct. For my money the AA Big Book and 12&12 are the clearest answer to the agonized Why????!!! that I was feeling before I got into recovery. I think its likely my perceptions of "why" are biased by all the Alanon work I do OTOH I've not come across other explanations so eloquently corroborated by recovering addicts I've gotten to know personally.
In short, the answer to your original question is yes. We do believe it- or do an amazing job at believing all the BS 99%. A critical piece of AA is that rigorous honesty is required to get sober. To paraphrase the Big Book, some people are incapable of this and cannot achieve lasting sobriety. "There are such unfortunates."
The things I did and said and the way I gradually adopted and behaved like while drinking are shocking and completely against the values and morals I have. There are reasons why everyone around us might say we are like two different people - we are, or certainly can be. Not everyone is as extreme a case as I was, but all alcoholics lie by omission or commission, or by being selfish or by ....
My last thought here is that no one but the alcoholic can make the change. No one else can make us stop and truly, unless we have decided to quit drinking and do something to stay sober (AA or other) then no support, financial or emotional, or efforts around jobs or housing or anything else will "work."
Al Anon is something I often hear spouses and exes of alcoholics say they use to stay sane, like we use AA to stay sober.
One absolutely true way to think of the situation you are in is that you didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it.
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As gently as I can, what is your hope here? That he gets sober and you leave your husband and kids for him and live happily ever after?
You’ve gotten some really good feedback here about the futility of trying to rebuild someone who has no interest in being built, let alone rebuilt.
It’s probably best for you to focus on you and why this “project” has become so important to you?
You’ve gotten some really good feedback here about the futility of trying to rebuild someone who has no interest in being built, let alone rebuilt.
It’s probably best for you to focus on you and why this “project” has become so important to you?
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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I don’t know if it’s egotistical to think that could be me. Or just crazy. Or worthy of consideration.
Men leave their wives, their children and their babies when a foot is put down asking that they stop drinking. Probably the best suggestion I have for you is to learn all you can about alcoholism (for you, not for him). No use googling "how do I help the alcoholic stop drinking" - you will just get a bunch of hits to sites that are selling - stuff. Instead perhaps read all the threads in this forum that you might find helpful. Read the stickies at the top of the forum, in particular:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...c-reading.html (Classic Reading)
I prob need the cold hard truth from folks here on how an AH thinks, when and how they desire help as I write this. I’m sure my needs and insecurities are tangled up in how I’m trying to approach it.
He has been an alcoholic for a long, long time. You love him, is he sober and in recovery? No. That's because only he can decide when he is ready.
Now you have probably been thinking (guessing here) if you two were together and looking after him and guiding him and talking to him he would be sober and working and looking after himself etc etc
Well many wives and husbands on this forum do that, doesn't make an iota of difference.
So what is the key? He has to decide he wants it for himself. You can't talk him in to that and it's a very, very tough road, which is why he needs to have that resolve that he wants his recovery - no matter what it takes.
The key here for you, perhaps is to think less of the "romanticizing" of this situation and look at the reality. He is who he is. You may want him to change and be different but he doesn't want to change and has shown zero sign of that. Most every alcoholic would like to "cut down" probably, when they start to feel unwell, that doesn't mean they are ready to quit.
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Originally Posted by Ariesagain
As gently as I can, what is your hope here? That he gets sober and you leave your husband and kids for him and live happily ever after?
You’ve gotten some really good feedback here about the futility of trying to rebuild someone who has no interest in being built, let alone rebuilt.
It’s probably best for you to focus on you and why this “project” has become so important to you?
You’ve gotten some really good feedback here about the futility of trying to rebuild someone who has no interest in being built, let alone rebuilt.
It’s probably best for you to focus on you and why this “project” has become so important to you?
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Originally Posted by August252015
Speaking as the alcoholic in recovery- and the adult child of an alcoholic, whose mom is now sober- this post is as close to spot on as a non-alcoholic can share! Bravo.
In short, the answer to your original question is yes. We do believe it- or do an amazing job at believing all the BS 99%. A critical piece of AA is that rigorous honesty is required to get sober. To paraphrase the Big Book, some people are incapable of this and cannot achieve lasting sobriety. "There are such unfortunates."
The things I did and said and the way I gradually adopted and behaved like while drinking are shocking and completely against the values and morals I have. There are reasons why everyone around us might say we are like two different people - we are, or certainly can be. Not everyone is as extreme a case as I was, but all alcoholics lie by omission or commission, or by being selfish or by ....
My last thought here is that no one but the alcoholic can make the change. No one else can make us stop and truly, unless we have decided to quit drinking and do something to stay sober (AA or other) then no support, financial or emotional, or efforts around jobs or housing or anything else will "work."
Al Anon is something I often hear spouses and exes of alcoholics say they use to stay sane, like we use AA to stay sober.
One absolutely true way to think of the situation you are in is that you didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it.
In short, the answer to your original question is yes. We do believe it- or do an amazing job at believing all the BS 99%. A critical piece of AA is that rigorous honesty is required to get sober. To paraphrase the Big Book, some people are incapable of this and cannot achieve lasting sobriety. "There are such unfortunates."
The things I did and said and the way I gradually adopted and behaved like while drinking are shocking and completely against the values and morals I have. There are reasons why everyone around us might say we are like two different people - we are, or certainly can be. Not everyone is as extreme a case as I was, but all alcoholics lie by omission or commission, or by being selfish or by ....
My last thought here is that no one but the alcoholic can make the change. No one else can make us stop and truly, unless we have decided to quit drinking and do something to stay sober (AA or other) then no support, financial or emotional, or efforts around jobs or housing or anything else will "work."
Al Anon is something I often hear spouses and exes of alcoholics say they use to stay sane, like we use AA to stay sober.
One absolutely true way to think of the situation you are in is that you didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it.
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Originally Posted by Izz4u
thank you. And appreciate, need the direct feedback. I don’t know what I Hope for but I agree focusing on why this is important to me will give some clarity. I also know that people have had happy marriages and tight relationships and family which alcohol has ruined. It’s immature for me to think I can help someone on this path become better. I agree with you.
If therapy is available to you, it could be a big help resolving why this is so important to you. A lot of us who grew up with messed up family relationships find ourselves as adults re-creating those dynamics in the futile hope of making it turn out better this time...I did that, many times.
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"Sounds ridiculous to write it out, but hope I can be a reason for him be better. He has said it multiple times, he has no reason to stop, no one to share life w, or get on the right path."
You sound like an ex girlfriend I once had. I had to figure this stuff out myself and absolutely no one in my life had any influence whatsoever in what I did.
You sound like an ex girlfriend I once had. I had to figure this stuff out myself and absolutely no one in my life had any influence whatsoever in what I did.
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