2018LizAnon

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...t-in-your-life

trailmix

Hope? Because you want what he was offering you? This is just a smattering of a few things you have posted:

So you start with the fact you had some history together.

And enter hope! You thought he had cut down on his drinking, so why not proceed?

Turns out he wasn't "over" alcohol at all and that he is in fact an alcoholic, but what about that guy from a few weeks ago?

Enter hope again!

Lose hope, enter hope again etc

It's a real pattern here and this is just a small sampling.

Why wouldn't you be hopeful? He is showing caring and love, he is crying to you that you mean the world to him.

The truth is, he may well want what you want, that loving caring, equal, mature, kind relationship, but he cannot function within it. First it was the drinking, now he is attempting to not drink without addressing any of the issues at all. So nothing has really changed.

That's what I mean by, loving to the best of his ability.

He also mentioned at one point that being with you was too much pressure for him. He could probably cope if you expected nothing from him (and I don't mean that in a snarky way, i'm serious).

Why wouldn't you want the great part of the relationship? That's not what's on offer here though, what's on offer is both, the good and the bad, you can't have one without the other right now. Even if you agree to do that, will he just keep ending he relationship whenever he finds it too stressful? I guess that is what you were asking the other day about explaining the "all in" to him.

2018LizAnon

Surfbee,

Just another thought. When I was going through this cyclical thing with my ex, I was very hung up on does he really love me or does he not love me. It was like I thought that if I could convince myself that he really did love me, that it was worth sticking it out in the relationship.

But what I realized is that it didn't really matter, because my concept of love was very different than my ex's. He may have and probably did love me in the way that he could. But we were on two different pages. It took a long time for me to accept that. It's so painful to know that you love someone and they love you but it just won't work.

dandylion

"Did he use me" "Do you think he really didn't love me"

That is a frequently asked question, around the forum.
Here is my take on that question---
Of course, I don't even know him....so, I don't want to make an individual assumption....so, I will speak in generalities....
Even when a person does have very strong romantic and emotional feelings for another person (lets call that "love")…..they may not be able to translate that into the kind of caring actions toward that person, that the recipient may want/need. For a variety of their own reasons.
Alcoholism is one reason that this might happen. Alcoholics learn to use alcohol to deal with feelings...all kinds of feelings...good and bad feelings.

A relationship requires sooo much of a person....and, it will, eventually require the entire spectrum of human emotions--it will trigger them all.
Those strong emotions call for a drink--a craving. To cope. (of course, an alcoholic can't have just one drink).
Alcoholism is to a relationship, like, pouring gasoline on a fire....

A mature love calls for loving behaviors that someone who is controlled by the alcohol can't measure up to....as the disease spirals over time....
I think that many alcoholics "know" this...deep, inside...and they struggle terribly with this knowledge.....and go through their own kind of war, inside, as they struggle to balance their feelings and fears for the relationship...and their powerful ties to the demands of the disease....
I will say that I have seen lots of alcoholics who don't even try to establish traditional kinds of relationships because of the internal conflicts that it can cause....

Sadly, for most alcoholics, who don't face the problem and seek real recovery, their relationships....even when they might begin with the usual human emotions and desires...eventually, implode.....

Surfbee….I think that the important thing for you, and those who have been hurt, is, that, YOUR feelings were real! You put in your best...real and sincere....
So, you don't have to doubt your own honesty or motivations.....
We can never know, for sure, everything that is inside of another...we can only go by what they show us....

Surfbee

I reached out to him a couple of days ago saying i'm hurting and would be good to talk this out ... he said yes that would be good sometime this week..."mid-week so he has time to gather his thoughts". he was guarded, in control, but he still wants to meet and there was 'x' at the end so that gives me hope... I sense that he's working up towards goodbye...Last night he's been active on social media appearing very sociable and positive... meanwhile I wait in despair for a confirmed date... And if he were to suddenly shower me with affection i'd feel happy and i'd start to defend him and the relationship...i'd call it love. and i'd most likely not have the brass neck to return to this forum.

With distance I see that I love him more... it is trauma bonding... I accept blame because I feel I can handle it, i'm strong enough to take whatever, because his validation is so sweet and i'm addicted to it...the wise thing to do for my peace is to let this go....but I'm terrified....I feel like i'm going to hang on forever.

A mature love calls for loving behaviors that someone who is controlled by the alcohol can't measure up to....as the disease spirals over time....
I think that many alcoholics "know" this...deep, inside...and they struggle terribly with this knowledge.....and go through their own kind of war, inside, as they struggle to balance their feelings and fears for the relationship...and their powerful ties to the demands of the disease....
I will say that I have seen lots of alcoholics who don't even try to establish traditional kinds of relationships because of the internal conflicts that it can cause....

Sadly, for most alcoholics, who don't face the problem and seek real recovery, their relationships....even when they might begin with the usual human emotions and desires...eventually, implode.....

This is him Dandylion... i remember one morning after he got really wasted at new year, I found him curled up on the floor and crying so hard it sounded like he was physically injured...he was in some kind of trance, still messed up with the amount of drugs and booze in his system,.. and the things he was rambling to himself on repeat ..."i hate myself, i'm a disgusting human being i don't deserve anythng..." things like that - i asked him if this is what he thinks of himself, really? he said "all the time , every day"...i'm so fcking sad right now...

madness is what I grew up with, this is what i'm used to , what i'm comfortable with ...i don't know how to get away from this... feel so messed up right now.

fightingfair

Oh goodness yes! IRL I was a litigator for many years and now am a compliance officer at a major financial institution so I can definitely come across as very hardnosed and ready to win an argument. And the terrible blowups we would occasionally get into often stemmed out of me suggesting to do something a different way because I happened to know how. I still remember my mea culpa over these type of episodes ... apologizing for being such a know it all and making a concerted effort to step back at other times when it was clear he was doing something his way ("DID I ASK FOR YOUR HELP??' I now remember him screaming at me once when I was helping him tie trees down for a hurricane and then he thought I would jsut be okay as I sat and tried not to cry through dinner.)

I am a bit of a know it all and kind of a strong personality at times, I'm sure but it's true that in the healthier relationships I had in the past (even though they ended) this was considered an asset and attirbute by my partners - not a flaw.

Still, your question makes me pause for a second, teary-eyed, because I genuinely felt like aspects of this relationship "softened" my edge a bit in response to a lot of the tenderness he showed me, including the day before we broke up. In a way, I don't want to second guess that because it showed me a capacity to love that I honestly did not think I had and that I had even told him as he was breaking it off. Made it the harder to be rejected, of course and I do still have a flat feeling left of whether I will ever be able to tap into that again.

fightingfair

This is the harsh truth I've been struggling with too the last few days. I don't doubt that my xab wanted exactly that but when things got hard or he felt shamed by the knowledge I knew of his drinking, he scrapped it all to start over. I doubt he has the capability to really have this relationship but of course what he does going forward is none of my affair. He didn't have the capability in our relationship, though, and that's what I need to remember.

fightingfair

This was also my xab. I never met a man so sensitive (well, in his own reality). When I talk about deeply and almost physically I feel things, I know we had this commonality. I spent a lot of my life running from my feelings or disguising them because I thought I couldn't bear them. The past few days - as well as me being sober for some time now and refusing to reach for anything except the sleeping pills I need to keep my sleeping cycle and me sane - have taught me it may feel unbearable but I'm going to grieve. I'm going to cry when a beloved uncle reaches out and tells me how he went through this with his first marriage and still finds himself bringing flower's to her grave. I'm going to cry at the love and hope my friends are giving me and that from strangers on the internet. I'm going to cry at the kindness and compassion of my parents who have had their own awful struggles with this disease. I'm going to cry for my xab because I know he is hurting and he drinks it away but this is what I lost him to and he is gone the same as if he were dead.

I need to feel all of it, even though right now it feels like a bottomless pit of tears but I need to get all the poison out. I hope this is the grieving that dandylion is talking about and I hope it has an expiration date. But it's a step in the right direction. I already know what it looked like back there. All was lost and I was losing myself in it. I have to let go. I hope you find the strength within you to make the right decision for you. Peace and hugs!

dandylion

fightingfair….yes, it definitely has an expiration date. Generally,it will come in fits and starts....the first few weeks being the most free-falling....and, as the months pass...it seems to plateau, at certain times--as one feels more functional at those times....like, at 3months and 6months, 9 months, etc....
For me, and, I have observed in others....the one year mark seem to be a big transition. I think that is, because, after that, it feel more like it was past history.....rather than in the present tense.


there are definitely things that can help one navigate through....if one is willing to do it. Grief takes it's own time...and, each person is individual in their experience.
I feel like grief is the beginning of the healing process....and, I know that this sounds completely wacky...but, one is healing as they are grieving.....
If one can hold on to the faith that, once again, the sun will come out and there will be laughter and joy, again...that helps a lot!

dandylion

In reading this thread.....I would like to say that for anyone who has had alcoholism in their caretakers, or just had a dysfunctional family due to mental illness, or other reasons....I believe that the group--Adult Children of Alcoholics-is a good support group to consider...even if the parents have passed on. This is in addition to any other therapy, of course.
One can find their literature...the Big Book...on amazon.com

FireSprite

I'm sorry you're hurting Surf, but glad you're thinking things through. There is no "right" answer, we're just challenging your old thought process with new ideas.

Yes - by my question I meant - is he offering you things like compassion? empathy? respect? partnership? compromise? ...things like that. I believe anyone can get healthy & become better but only when they WANT it & are willing to do the hard work. Is he? Be careful with words like Narcissist if he hasn't been officially diagnosed - this is one of the most overused & misapplied labels getting thrown around today & the truth is that a lot of people display narcissistic qualities without BEING one. True Narcissists are actually pretty rare. This does not sound like the ranting of a True N, drunk or sober:

The joke goes - if you want to know if someone if a Narcissist, just ask them... because a true Narc will likely own it. They see nothing wrong with their lack of empathy or self-centeredness. (and remember, a true Narc literally CANNOT feel empathy)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...hos-narcissist


Yes - be careful with those generalizations..... the majority of addicts I've known have been high functioning hard workers with all kinds of talents & positive qualities. I've literally known more than I can COUNT in every single relationship except for my child. (fingers crossed & all that...) I sincerely tried to count once - I ran out of fingers & toes before I scratched the surface & stopped - it was an overwhelming realization.

You are the intermittent chicken then? If you haven't read this one, please do - I think it strikes a chord with your situation. (I'm going to bump it for everyone again anyway):

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...-chick-en.html (Don't be his chick(en)!!!)


In my experience, the healthiest couples grow together, separately. They are able to hold space for each other to thrive & soar as much as they are able to support through the bad. Unconditional means "warts & all" - someone who allows you to be imperfect & still feel safe & worthy.

But that secure base HAS to come from inside each of you - you can't BE that FOR each other.... otherwise it all goes down like a house of cards eventually. You stand separately, firm in your foundations, alongside one another/together. When my "base" is reliant on an external variable, I'm handing my power over to that person whether I mean to or not.

Dandy's suggestion to dig into ACOA work is spot-on - when we fix ourselves, everything else either falls in line or falls off our radar.

YOU are the most important person in your story Surfbee. You also get to write your own ending - it's completely up to you & your story is far from over.

Surfbee

Firesprite

yes I really do love and appreciate everyone here for that...even though I have felt myself react with some anger, i'm aware this is a good indicator to scan a bit deeper.

Yes makes sense, thanks for clarifying this! He's actually very empathetic and sensitive... and he has ADHD too which makes him restless and hyper....

I read that your ex also has ADHD? How would you say this disorder added fuel to the fire in your experience?


I'm seeing them everywhere too...! Very surreal and eye opening!

haha! Just read the thread! It seems I am a bit like that! :/

"when we fix ourselves, everything else either falls in line, or falls off our radar"....




I'm going to keep digging, keep loving myself every day...

and will continue to read the book that Dandylion suggested a while ago too...

dandylion

surfbee…..the following website for those living with someone with ADHD, might be very useful for you....
Personally, I think it can be very hard to live with someone with ADHD...(not a partner)…..and, I think that learning all about the condition is essential....

this website has forums, similar to SR forums for friends and family...
CHADD - The National Resource on ADHD

Surfbee

Thanks Dandylion, It was only until I read Firesprite's post in the intermittent chicken thread that it struck me as something to look into.

Surfbee

Fightingfair, I really understand your situaiton... and I send you a huge hug! I think you really have your head screwed on... and although you're hurting, you're acutely aware and this tells me that you're so much more mature and evolved than your ex.... ! You'll be better off in the future...


lol listen to me dishing out the advice -always easier to give than apply it to myself.

When I (semi) broke up with my ex about 2 months ago... we lasted three weeks without contact ...it was painful as hell but in that time I started weekly therapy and went to alanon...so as hard as it was, the time apart helped me discover new ways to heal and grow ..... however in the back of my mind I was still very hopeful for a reunion with bf... then after three weeks he practically begged me back... he said I was his "motivator for change" and how "running away from me was him running away from himself " ... I think he genuinely meant it, but look at what happened... the first wobble and he ran like hell!

It feels like his biggest run to date - total forrest gump style - because this time he knows we've both crossed THE line ....he knows I'm well aware of of his issues now .... so if he chooses to go forward now, it'll mean he needs to truly face the music... AA and all that.

OR he'll refresh and start over...choose the easy route with some new party time-loves a bevvy- girlfriend.

If we break up this time...I know it will be done. The grieving will commence... and there will be no going back. I'm dreading it... but I know the pain won't last forever.

But still.... I live in hope...!

FireSprite

We are still together (but we separated a couple of times), so I mean it when I say - "no judgment".

ADHD is the #1 issue in our relationship, hands down. I always struggled with addiction being his primary "diagnosis" because I really don't see it that way - for me, the behaviors associated with alcohol are secondary & only exist because of the ADHD. It is the primary, prevailing issue. 12 steps cannot fix ADHD.

Dandy helped me A LOT with this way back when & when I read "Is It You, Me or ADHD" by Gina Pera, it confirmed everything I'd already been witnessing plus tons of stuff I hadn't connected to ADHD.

In the end it still ends up in HIS lap to fix but it does help me to have an understanding of it from his side - it sometimes helps me step back & rephrase something before engaging for instance.

Getting that diagnosis, managing his meds & other tools (meds aren't enough for him - ADHD requires awareness & active management) is all on his side of the street. I will help when asked, but I refuse to micromanage it in any way or give allowances when he chooses to mismanage himself.

I've shared a lot about it all here:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...adult-add.html (Semi O/T - Adult ADD)

2018LizAnon

Do you want to meet with him to break up with him again or were you hoping to get back together? I thought you emailed him last week that it was over, and he sort of emailed you back saying fine and blaming you for everything. I'd just maybe caution you a bit here. So I think there are a couple possible outcomes:

1.) He apologizes and makes promises that he will be sober and in active recovery, tells you he loves you, etc.
--Do you believe him? At this point, is anything he says going to make you feel ok?

2.) He doesn't apologize, continues to blame you, but doesn't suggest ending things.
--So if he plants himself more firmly in his position, are you going to follow through with the break up, or are you going to accept him the way he is? You will probably have to apologize for your behavior (being demanding, controlling, etc.).

3.) He comes to say it's over and he wants to move on.
--Is this going to make you feel even worse?

4.) You both talk about it, agree the relationship is over, and amicably part ways.
--It could happen, but it seems unlikely given everything that has happened. Do you feel like you need this closure?

Surfbee

I'm glad you're still together Firesprite, and learning all that you have!

This is an incredible eyeopener... ! I"m listening to the videos in your thread......I'm saying mmhmm to everything she's saying... he's so hard on himself...pessimistic...avoiding...moody...talente d...great at fixing things...but struggles to finish projects....super observant, notices things most people don't...rationlising and blaming...controlling....thinks
very abstractly ...super intelligent...creative... very lively nature... . aaah !! This explains so much. Thank you!

Edit - not that I'm looking for excuses to justify his behaviour... but good to learn more.

Surfbee

Hey Liz , thank you, I'm reflecting on those questions you asked me... and will get back on this tomorrow...

Tonight I've been realising the opportunity I have here, and that's to be more gentle on myself, and feel excited about all the new (self)love to come... ..and every time I think I need him, I'm reminding myself that the best affection I can get from anyone, is from myself.

Today was day 10 of my yoga plan. Yoga every day for 90 days with yoga fightmaster on youtube ... the teacher has a very soothing voice and at the end of each session she reads a mantra or an extract from a book.... it's like a little reward after each workout.... Today she shared the wisdom of an old lady at 95 years old : life is long and rich when you enjoy it one day at a time I'm not sure of her words exactly but been reflecting on this sentiment tonight...

One day at a time as Mango says too...

and give my mind a break from him for the next day.

Also - newly introduced to Abraham Hicks ....so will listen to her tonight as I sleep x