FireSprite

I understand, I honestly do. But I'm going to say this anyway because you aren't legally bound to this man & you have no kids to worry about getting twisted up in this mess....

You don't have a problem, you have a solution you don't like.

The first time I encountered this saying, I felt like I'd been slapped. Not because it was harsh (although I WANTED it to be for that reason).... but because it was True.

Think Surf - what is he even OFFERING you?

Of course we only share our dysfunction here on SR but then again, when things are "off" enough so that we reach out anonymously online for help..... is that "normal"? We all have good & great moments with our Qualifiers - but you have to decide individually what you're capable of tolerating & then accept life around whatever that is.

Surfbee

I was feeling very negative, hopeless and somewhat dramatic when I typed up those two options. "pander to him" for example, was being facetious. I've never been a panderer. I express myself when I feel like I've been wronged. This is a big part of why we clash the way we have - I don't hold back my opinions ! I'm quite a force in that area lol

He can be arrogant and callous at times as you've all witnessed here in the contents of that email he sent me. He can also be very caring, and generous.

Firesprite said something before about him throwing the toys out the sandbox because he can't cope with painful emotions... that resonated. This is where my negativity stems from... not sure how to manage myself in reaction to his spitting the dummy out patterns... but I know that from the times I don't over-react to it, and just say hang on, not fair... and put attention back on me, and leave him to come out of his mood in his own time... I've ended up feeling empowered... and then he's the one that comes back and apologises.

But I generally don't do this - generally I get defensive ! And can be just as reactive to triggers as he can, hence why I'm learning all this new stuff about emotion management.

Someone here said "dysfunctional marriage" - he has never been married. He had a brief relationship with the mum around 6 years ago - they were friends for a couple of years before that. The mum (bf's ex) got pregnant with her first child to a guy who was engaged to be married to his pregnant fiance.... he abandoned bf's ex whilst she was pregnant - he cut her out completely. My bf helped her out, helped her find a new home, went guarantor for her (codependency stuff here right ? ) she told him it would be "impossible to get pregnant again due to birth complications". And so they had unprotected sex, and she got pregnant again. Shockerooony. He broke away, did not want a child... did not want a long term relationship with her. But when his baby was born he stepped up. Not only for his own, but for BOTH girls. He's a very loving dad. And how many men do you know that would do that? Yes he's an alcoholic - and a big baby at times ! But also a decent good human being. And baby Mama is also a decent human being - but has her issues too - she's a pot head and takes drugs and parties every other weekend. Neither are angels. But the kids are turning out amazing - very smart, strong, funny and thoughtful. The issue now between bf and mum is that mum doesn't want my bf to see them because I believe she is a control freak. But I think so is my BF so both as bad as each other in my view.

After relationship with baby mama... he had a four year relationship with another girl... and then me.

Trailmix, I think the third option you suggested is more balanced....

Dandylion - I want to feel safe, loved, understood... all of that... and I have felt this way with him... but not when we fall out obv... but does anyone feel safe or loved or understood in the midst of a fight?

I'm aware that we've had a LOT of fall outs - and this is destructive... we are in a repetitive boxing match (as trailmix described) ... we are in a dance of come here and go away....both insecure, both sensitive, both struggle to handle our emotions in the heat of the moment... difference between us is that I got my art to lean on... my bf got his booze. He's at least trying to cut that out...maybe the AA will come next.

As for for what next for us,my expectations are low... I think we will broken up for good if we can't be fair, and communicate with kindness now that the waters have calmed...

Surfbee

Right now he's offering me space to think... to get that clarity...

When we are together he offers me a whole lot. I love being around him - he's helpful, caring, passionate, funny ! Very caring... problem solver, hard worker, creative thinker, supports me with my work...and unlike all the alcoholics I read about here - he works hard every day and saves his money.

Every relationship is unique - yes, maybe we are destined to end - but there are two parts to every relationship and I'm no doubt just as messed up as him. But aren't we all messed up. We love each other at the end of the day.....So who knows ! Maybe we're ****** ! Or maybe we're going to work out!

I came here to SR because of the stress I was under - not having a clue about alcoholism... thanks to this forum it's lead me to therapy, and al-anon .... and more wisdom than I can imagine... I love everyone's inputs here..... and so grateful... I'm just trying to take a good hard look at myself as much as him. I'll survive without him, I do intrinsically know this. I just want to know if what we have, the good core of who we are can be salvaged.

dandylion

Surfbee……
This is just for the sake of discussion.... You ask..."does anyone feel safe or loved or understood in the midst of a fight?"
I contend that you can. Yes, couples do have conflicts on issues, of course...because no two people are going to see, eye to eye, on every single thing...and, therefore need to communicate u ntil it is worked out....The thing is...while communicating about these things does NOT feel like one is fighting for their emotional life....One feels safe in the knowledge that things will get worked out, and all will be well....not like there is a big rip in the fabric of their relationship.
You ask..."isn't everyone messed up?" Well...define "messed up"....lol...
In this context, that we are discussing...I would say that "messed up: is having deep seated issues that interfere with the normal functioning in a relationship....So, no, I would not say that everyone is messed up all the time...
I think we can all have a serious issue....but, some can get to the bottom and resolve them....

Funny, true story....My husband and I had our first, what I would call a "fight", when we had been married, almost 2 years. I was directing a play (The Importance of Being Earnest)….and he was an actor that I was directing. I was telling him that he needed to work harder on his accent (he is American who was raised in the South)….and he took offence---he actually raised his voice as he stomped up the stairs to the bedroom and yelled down to me--"Your accent isn't so hot!!"....I yelled up to him "That doesn't matter...I am not the actor!!"....
Within a half an hour...I was apologizing that I was being hard on him, when he was already tired...and he was accepting my apology...and, saying that I was correct that the accent did need some work....

trailmix

My Father was an alcoholic, never had recovery and he worked hard. We didn't miss any meals and in fact we had quite a cushy life. He wasn't one to not work hard. Ever independent.

While the "pandering" comments may have been factitious there is maybe some truth in there? The truth being that is what he would like, very much! His thoughts on that would have to change though because that is not you and therefore there will always be a huge clash.

One other thing that comes to mind is that you have talked before about your self-esteem and about how you take on the blame. This is a pretty big concern? How do you hold on to your self esteem when it is constantly being challenged.

How do you not start to think you are to blame when you are constantly being blamed?

When you first got back in to this relationship you mentioned that you had been in some good relationships and overall it seems like you were in a pretty good place?

ffwd through dealing with this and now you are not. Look at that shift. You were probably ok self-esteem wise, you were pretty happy in general?

One other thing you posted one day during no contact was that you felt all this love/joy bubbling up inside you. That is funny because I have experienced that (post-narcissistic relationship), isn't that a great feeling? Don't know why that happens and I don't care, all I know is that it's great and probably comes about when your emotions start to feel "safe" perhaps.

Just last week was it? He emailed you and blamed you again for wanting what you want when you want it. I think I said at the time he has probably heard that a lot (if I didn't say it I thought it).

Sorry for the rambling, I'm just thinking that self-blame, his gaslighting and yes that's exactly what it is, intentional or not are hugely destructive.

I watched this TedTalk on youtube the other night about that, it's very heartfelt, I don't know if you are interested but this is the link if you want to check it out:

Surfbee

You are all getting into my head...lol

Love is a safe space...it should be...

​​​​​​I watched the video... I'm not sure he fits into that category...but this one (respond not react to narcissist) relates: https://youtu.be/qima6k2Jnhk (came on automatically after the ted talk)

The relationship I was in before bf really hurt me...I think I was still a bit vulnerable before bf.. But felt clear on who I was, and my worth, and always actively seeking to grow through daily journalling, meditation, exploring spirituatilty....

And through this current relationship I feel like I've went inside out...I'm grateful for the deeper learning but it's like a double edged sword...the blaming, punishing, coldness has hurt my confidence more than any other relationship I've been in...or it could be that it has triggered old wounds from previous relationships...

fightingfair

This is exactly what happened to me. I had taken a long break from relationships to sort some other things out and was in an amazing peaceful place when I met XAB. He actually was the last in a series of blind dates when I had started looking again because I had almost already decided I was going to take a break from it since I was not finding what I was looking for.

I'm not a hollowed out shell of a woman, but I was only with him for six months - three of which I was fully aware of what was happening, even if I did not want to admit it and often tried to find tiny exceptions in every internet article I clicked on which was pointing to the source of his problematic behaviors. INstead, I zeroed in on me and my own mental issues, and what I had to do better to make the relationship work. My xab did play the blame game on the rare occasions where we overtly argued but there was an odd and controlling tenseness he had at other times that made me turn on a self-critical voice that I thought I had silenced. I think the worst is sometimes I would voice my self-critique and he would try to sooth me, but then not remember the conversation or it just felt weird and in some cases more like a prelude to physical intimacy.

I don't know. I think in many ways there were definitely some incompatibilities that I missed that were enhanced by the drinking. Other days I was convinced he was my partner forever and the drinking was just a small obstacle I could deal with because he treated me well most of the time. Switching between the two left me with a fuzzy sense of self-identity that honestly made me feel crazy and was very noticeable to people close to me. Which made it feel all the more humiliating as I would brightly try to cover up my concerns constantly. (I'm so sure everyone is tired of hearing about my amazing boyfriend, and yet I praised him to the heavens to the people who I knew would be the most likely to see through my act.

In the end, he was done and I'm realizing I should've been earlier. I am hurting but reading your posts is actually making me realize that no one deserves to be put below a bottle. I also experienced what I still believe were real and beautiful experiences of love with him - at times even transcendant. But whether or not that was my own illusion, even having the knowledge that it could possibly be an illusion each time I smelled the booze on his breath was slowly killing me.

Thank you for posting. I support you and hope I can add some insight into my own similar struggle toward the end of our relationship.

Surfbee

Messed up to me means we all got issues aka some degree of dysfunction...but i want to get inside this at least ... and want a relationship where we can both grow together and be a secure base for each other...I believe he wants this too, at least likes the idea of it.....but the reality is that it is easier to stay on a surface level for him.. and me wanting to talk about things, get to the bottom of things for clarity, and also failing at pandering to him are probably all off putting qualities to him. I wonder about that and think it could also be a male versus female issue...?
​

Hawkeye13

Sounds like you're talking yourself into getting back together.


We're here to support you, not judge your choices.


One thing I do want to respond to was your statement that "all alcoholics don't work hard".

I've worked since age 15, and I'm 54 now. Even when I was a full-blown alcoholic, I went to work and worked hard and didn't call in sick.

Lots of alcoholics do this, and they step up and take care of their family.

In fact, I started abusing alcohol because I was caregiving my alcoholic mother, who was abusive when drunk and always demanding. So both of those qualities aren't particularly exceptional in him. It's just being a decent person who meets their bills.

If you aren't ready to let go, that's fine. We all wish both of you every success.
Our stories are born of hard experience, which we hope to spare posters who come here in the early stages of dealing with an addict.

But I had to keep touching the hot stove and getting burned over and over with my addict because I wanted it to work out because I loved them.
So I understand. But go back in (if you do) with your eyes open and be a strong advocate for yourself--you will need every bit of strength you can gather if you stay engaged with this person.

Surfbee

Fightingfair, i really get your experience... Thanks for sharing this... It helps me recognize that the criticizing and blaming is not fair... Not right... My bf is bad for this... He's recently recognized where it comes from - his very "critical and aspiring snob mother" hmmm... He goes all out to impress his mum but you can feel a sort of tension between them too, like he's needing reassurance and approval all the time... the critical thing is noticed... And that's down to how harsh his own inner critic is....a lot of self loathing going on...

I read somewhere recently that narcissists are very drawn towards light and bright strong people...people with strengths in their personalities, talents, or social circles....

You were strong and together before you met him so maybe he wanted to be around that positive energy... To help him... To give him hope he could share those traits...But in the end he knew he knew he couldn't really live up to you...

trailmix

What I saw in the video that made me think of this was how you blame yourself and how he blames you.

Now you could say, well that is his reality, which in fact it may well be (blaming you for some wrong he perceived was your fault). His thinking though may well be skewed. That is not your reality, however you can come around to his way of thinking and take the blame.

That's gaslighting. He is denying you your reality. That's wrong. Now, I know you are a smart person and I know you can deal with that. Gaslighting doesn't have to be intentional.

I will check out that video you posted!

fightingfair

My xab also had that weird attenuated relationship with his mother. One odd thing is that she really liked me! I wonder a little bit now if his family knew the extent of his problem and was hoping that I would fix him ... Not to too my own horn but I was quite a catch for him (although I felt the same way about him). There was always something a little "off" in the interactions, though that bothered me - at least in contrast to my own family. Like a lot needed to get on the table but everyone just seemed to tired to try.

I also noted your comment about man versus women dynamic - we struggled with the same thing! One night my xab held me when I was crying because I told him I was feeling weak (when I started feeling depressed and anxious) and he said "You are so strong. You are so strong it makes it difficult for me." one other night he got angry at me for disagreeing with something he said and actually said "and you would act like this as my WIFE." it was odd and possessive and scary. It was one of those early fights he seemed to forget about in the morning or I assumed had blown over (and full disclosure, I had had a few that night myself so we were both missing each other's signals definitely.) Funny to think about it in context. I kept telling myself "well, maybe he just needs to feel like the man in the relationship, maybe I should let go and let him."

Hm.

Surfbee

Yes I hear what you're saying hawkeye, thanks, and sorry did not mean to offend re my statement on "all alcoholics" not working hard every day - that was unfair - I should have said "most" ... but that could be wrong too. From the material I'm researching on alcoholics, being unable to hold down a job seems to be a common trait amongst them. I should have remembered though that my mum was also a total grafter - worked every day from 15 years old, so what I said was definitely an oversight. But being a good provider should be commended, no matter how commonplace it is.

Surfbee

Yes this makes total sense... thanks for putting it across like that.

God I fell in love with a real catch didn't I ! A narcissistic gaslighting alcoholic !

Surfbee

I could have written this part myself ! lol...wow... I too believe his family were aware of his problem and hoped I'd fix him.... And yet his mum actively buried her head in the sand after the one and only time I called her... stressed out my box... to tell her how worried I was about him... she admitted that he is struggling and she was aware... and she even related to my stress because her ex husband (my bf's dad) was also an alcoholic (whom eventually committed suicide) ... but she didn't mention a word to my BF about it.... evidently her coping mechanism is to detach and avoid... more like neglect ...

yea, sounds like your ex's family wanted to unload the burden onto you...

yea I know what you mean...it sounds like he was feeling inferior ... but a stronger , more secure guy would love your strength... i'm sure your ex did too...and a big reason why he was drawn towards you, but probably really only enjoyed it when he himself was feeling strong and more secure himself? Did you ever feel yourself 'weakening' to him.... kinda like 'dumbing your strengths down' in order to make him feel better?

Surfbee

Sorry to you also T for my comment !

yes there is truth in there... he respond better to pandering.

It is very hard...

Makes sense... and then I miss him in the "safe"...

Did he use me? Do you think he didn't really love me?

trailmix

So I watched part of that video, I hope he doesn't fit in to that category at all!

I guess if you have to work with one or they are on your volunteer committee or they coach the little league at your child's school, this might be valuable information.

If you are actually in a relationship with a narcissist it is truly a waste of time as there is nothing to be achieved (I don't mean you SB, just talking about the video in general).

trailmix

No worries about the comment!

From what you have told us he does seem to genuinely care about you/love you. That is love to the best of his ability as an alcoholic. Of course alcoholism is a symptom of other issues (although I am sure some become alcoholics just because they love the taste of beer as well, not saying each alcoholic has underlying issues).

Surfbee

I'm feeling so anxious just now... 4am can't sleep ...

FireSprite asked question "what is he OFFERING you?"

My answer right now is... No love, no care, no reassurance...no safety. Why am I holding on so tightly? I'm so afraid to let go of him 😢

2018LizAnon

What makes you think this? Based on the way he's been acting and the things he's said to you, it seems that he doesn't want that at all. More like he just wants to be able to do whatever he pleases without regard to your feelings and then wants you to be there for him when he needs you. I'm really not trying to sound harsh, but it seems like you think you know what he wants better than he does. Maybe I'm way off base here but it still seems like you believe that if you just said the right words or did the right thing that he would change. But you don't have that power. You cannot control him.

So, your off-putting qualities are:

1.) You like to discuss and resolve conflict.
2.) You don't like to be a caregiver or babysitter to your adult partner.

No, I think most emotionally healthy people, male or female, have those qualities.