Hammer

These results may just apply to the "rat" portion of the Human A brain.

Who knows.

Meanwhile for a wider view, we present, once again this stunning animal research study.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHzdsFiBbFc

davenport

I'm going to be generous with my words and call that video hilarious with a touch of sterotyping on the crack spider. I read that article in the early morning before work and it triggered me to the point where I almost posted a snarky comment on someone's FaceBook. Thanks to you guys and your really insightful posts I kept my co-dependent drama off FaceBook. I can't thank all of you enough for that. Your responses really made me feel like I belong to one of the greatest and most supportive communities I've ever known but not really known.

Hammer

Some other good Animal Science in keeping with the Substantial Nature of this Thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHs5POy8-8Y

allforcnm

Hi Chantal,

Wanted to clarify the book I mentioned in my post was called In the Realm of Hungry Ghost by Dr Gabor Mate. This is a book my husband and I (my qualifier here) have both read. I would recommend it. I mentioned it because the author was referenced in the beginning of this article. But we are not doing a book review on it at this time.

The book we are reviewing in the Secular Family Forum is called: Beyond Addiction, How Science and Kindness Help People Change by Dr Jeffrey Foote Phd, Nicole Kosanke PhD. This book is based on the CRAFT method I mentioned in my earlier post.

If you want some info on CRA and CRAFT just start with Wikipedia... send me a p.m. if you want more.. LOL

Community reinforcement approach and family training - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also encourage everyone to read from the National Institute of Drug Abuse.. in fact I may have the highest record of writing the word NIDA on the SR site.. LOL… but its very educational site and even has areas specifically designed for family. I reference it a lot because it agrees with what I was taught by my therapist. I always suggest looking at their section on Principles of Effective Treatment.

Others here have commented on the HBO addiction series.. this was a venture done in partnership with the National Institute of Drug Abuse.. and here is a link to the page where it discusses CRAFT.. this approach is supported by NIDA, NIH, SAMHSA, etc...

HBO: Addiction: Treatment: Getting Someone into Treatment

If I missed anything, just send me a p.m.

allforcnm

these are cute Im going to share on our animal planet thread.

LLLisa

Most of us here tried that and it didn't work. That's why we are here.

Because we tried being loving and supportive. That led to us being taken advantage of. We made it easier for the addicts we loved to do whatever they wanted to do. And they did. Because alcoholism is progressive.

You wrote that you left your X addict/alcoholic for reasons not related to their using, so your perspective will most likely be and does appear to be very different to many of us on this forum.

Spacegoat

Yeah I seen the article on Facebook and its an interesting one. A quote springs to mind;

So, nature or nurture…

...You decide...

CodeJob

I didn't get too irked about this until My sibling posted this on their FB feed with a positive comment like they know WTH they are talking about. So thanks Hammer dear for the spider video. I stuck that on their feed under the article. I love the cushy environment represented with the various webs and how the master manipulator wins! Pops the one spider and turns another into their B... Yep that's how it is so often. For a long time addicts manage to 'win'.

Seriously I hate spiders and it was hard to watch.

PinkCloudsCharley

I am confused by the anger in this thread.

The article talks about an addict's environment, or "cage". I don't know about your addicts, but I am not the only person in my addict's environment. He has his family (huge problems with them), his job, his friends, his life growing up without me, his interests outside of me...

Nowhere in his article did I take it to say "Wife, you are the reason your husband drinks" instead I took it to mean we are all products of our environment. My husband's environment lead him to take that first drink. My husband's environment encouraged him to continue.

Yes, there are genetic components. I don't think the article goes much into that and perhaps should.

My husband created an environment that allowed his addiction to continue. I allowed that environment to continue. Once we changed the environment, he was able to quit. We are creating positive memories and engagements that give him something to grab onto when he feels like slipping.

Are we not all products of our own environments?

FlippedRHalo

Laughing so hard over the spider video.... it brings a dose of humor to a sadly accurate situation.

FlippedRHalo

And many others have done the exact same thing and their A's still weren't able to quit.

Some quit for a period of time and relapsed.

Some have experienced the same hard environments, by choice or involuntarily, and never started using.

Some addicts/alcoholics have put down drugs/alcohol permanently without ever seeking help.

Some addicts/alcoholics have had wonderful lives, have wonderful families and great community support with the best rehabilitation programs available to them and don't stop using.

Barring some magical vaccine or other drug, there will never, ever be one modality that will work for every addict, and unfortunately, there are some addicts that will NEVER find recovery regardless of community support, approach, treatment.

If they can't find it within themselves to seek, and then embrace, recovery, no amount of community support, treatment modalities or family love will get them sober.

What aggravates me to no end is the notion that again, others should be doing more for the addict to take the work off of them. NO. Just as a diabetic didn't ask to become diabetic, they must still embrace a proper diet, take their medication and work at staying as healthy as possible. The addict may not have asked to become addicted, but it is still ultimately their responsibility to seek recovery and do what is necessary to stay in recovery.

It just amazes me how many look for more ways to take the responsibility and work necessary away from the addict when that is exactly what they need NOT taken from them.

HopefulinFLA

Well said Flipped!

Flavia2

My husband had a GREAT job, a mother and father who doted on him, a wife(me) who let him come home after he abandoned us repeatedly and SCADS of friends, many from childhood, to socialize with.

He still became an addicted, broke, recluse with multiple close calls that required emergency room visits in the end. Because he's an addict.

Needabreak

Are you saying that people should be given a pass for their bad choices because of the environments they lived / grew up in?

I disagree with that. We have choices in how we respond to our environments. Some make bad choices. If they are children, we try to correct them.

But adults...nah, I hold adults accountable for their bad choices. I don't say "oh, you ran someone over and killed them because you were under the influence, but you had a terrible upbringing / family / nagging wife so I forgive you and will pay your legal bills so that you don't need to suffer any consequences and can concentrate on your recovery instead." Unfortunately all too many people on these boards do exactly that -- or they feel tremendously guilty when they don't.

I make decisions every day about who I will interact with, who I will hire, who I will network with, etc. etc. It's called discernment. I choose not to interact or do business with people who I don't trust. It's good business sense and I make no apologies for it. We only get one life, and a bad judgment call on trusting someone else can really do a number on our own lives.

Seren

I must admit that I have been very hesitant to walk into this fray, but I felt compelled to share what I do know because I am a scientist.

First, I’ll qualify any and all comments I make and my own views on all this by stating that I am neither a sociologist nor a medical researcher. I am an oceanographer and earth scientist.

1) Karl Popper’s Hypothesis of Falsification. This is the basic premise that if a hypothesis is made, many experiments may support that hypothesis, but a single experiment may falsify it. In other words, it can no longer be considered to be universally true.

In my own experiences with addiction I will state that my stepson was always treated with love. When he came out of the hospital from his first detox from alcohol, we all pitched in to make sure his room was clean and organized, instead of cluttered and depressing. We bought him a new bicycle so that he could get some exercise to improve his overall health and keep himself active and involved with the ‘outside world’. He had free cable TV, free food, and free cell phone. He was invited along and included, as always, in family events and outings. My stepson then turned to crack and threatened to kill his father, his sister, and one of his brothers. This is just one story, but I have read many similar ones here. This, in my opinion, falsifies the universal applicability that when the family provides a loving and supportive environment, the addicted individual will stop using/drinking, will never use again, or that the addiction would not develop in the first place.

Now, to be clear:

Do I think it makes recovery for an addict harder if they are constantly criticized or are constantly having the past thrown into their faces? Yes, I do. Do I think that addicts don’t deserve loving, supportive environments? No, of course not. But to state something as universal when it is clearly not misrepresents the complexity of addiction, in my experience.

2) The Rat Park experiments. I have not read the “Rat Park” manuscript that was published, so I cannot speak to any of the criticisms the study received regarding methodology or data manipulation. Sometimes methodology issues arise due to the nature of the experiment. These are not necessarily insurmountable, but must be clearly stated when presenting the results. I would, however, be more concerned with data manipulation. If a scientist purposefully excludes some data while including other data in order to obtain the desired result, then this is a serious charge, indeed. Again, I have not read all of the literature pertaining to this, so I am merely discussing the nature of methodology, data fabrication, and data manipulation issues.

3) Subsequent experiments on community support. The finding by more recent studies that social animals thrive with community support is, in my opinion, not that newsworthy. It seems an obvious finding that social animals need social interactions in order to be happy and well-adjusted.

4) Scientific Language. Scientific language is something that is often not well understood by the general public. When you read an abstract or manuscript published in a scientific journal, you will notice that scientists usually say things like “Our findings indicate…”, or “The results of this study suggest….”, or even “This may mean that….”. If you think about it, these words are sort of ‘wishy-washy’, and they have to be. The scientific process works from hypothesis to theory to law. There are very, very few actual scientific laws. Scientific data is often subjected to statistical tests, with the Pearson or other correlation tests being the most frequently utilized. Unfortunately, even scientists overstate their results if they find a significant correlation among their data. Correlation is not causation, and a very good article which highlights the difference is this: Sewall Wright (1921). Correlation and Causation, Journal of Agricultural Research, Vol. 20 (7). Although an old paper, the author does an excellent job explaining the basic difference between the two. A significant correlation does not necessarily mean there is a cause and effect between two phenomena.

5) Scientific research presented by popular media. Our news outlets are an openly acknowledged source of error in reporting scientific research by the vast majority of scientists. The reporters themselves are not entirely at fault here, although Mr. Johann Hari clearly cannot be trusted. Often, the reporters are under a tight deadline, have neither the training, the time, nor the word space to fully digest, understand, and relay all the subtleties a new piece of research. So, science reported in the popular press is often a misinterpretation of the research. In some cases, this is merely annoying. In other cases, it can be dangerous.

6) Scientists as infallible and superior beings. There are just as many scientists who are ego-driven and unscrupulous as you could find in any other segment of society. The falsification, manipulation, and fabrication of data to present the desired outcome does happen. The desired outcome often being driven by funding. If you read about a scientist or medical researcher who has been censured or disciplined in some way or whose work has been retracted, then there were grave and outright dishonest actions taken on the part of that scientist. In a way, I believe that scientists, like any well-adjusted human, should be honest, transparent, and humble.

Scientific research performed at universities and institutes is also very much guided by the sort of research desired by the funding agencies (typically governmental agencies). Scientists will frequently try to find ways to spin their research proposal in such a way that it seems as though their work is a good fit with the desired research of the funding agencies.

The bottom line for me, as a scientist, is that all scientific research should be considered carefully, and if you read about something that interests you in the popular press—please go find and read the primary research.

The bottom line for me, as someone who is surrounded by addicted family members, is that I tell them I love them, I support them in doing what they need to do for their own recovery, and I love myself enough to protect myself and my health and happiness from the chaos and sometimes abuse and violence that can come with active addiction.

I also hope that scientific research will continue into understanding the causes of addiction and improving treatment successes.

Peace, S

Hammer

Used to work with a Farmer.

He used to laugh and say . . . .

Please DO NOT confuse me with Facts.

My mind is made up.

===========================

Something even simpler I have taught the kids (due to largely to Mrs. Hammer's Lying Addiction) . . . .

"Is That True?"

Really it is often that simple.

Look at one of the Grossly ******** claims in the Facebook (omigod) "Research."

Quothish: 20% of Vietnam Veterans were Heroin Addicts.

Now the "test" question . . . Is That True?

PinkCloudsCharley

Nope. Not saying that at all. In fact, if you read ALL my post, I say my husband CREATED his environment. He created an environment that allowed his addiction to continue.

Not seeing a free pass in there anywhere.

What I am saying is, we are products of our environment. He is a product of the environment he created. I am a product of the environment I created. We changed our environment and it's working. I am excited about that.

Not sure where I said it wasn't his responsibility. In fact, he will tell perfect strangers it was his fault.

Please do not read what isn't there.

Chantal88

Alcoholism is progressive if the alcoholic continues to drink. It is not an inevitable progression.

But yes, I do agree, that different experiences do effect a person's perspective and may make certain material hard to read or listen to.

My ex got sober after going into rehab that his family and I set up for him. He now has a good life for himself and we remain in touch. Would he have gotten sober without the support and planning that we provided? I don't know. It certainly didn't seem that way at the time. It seemed like he was on a way ticket to the grave to be honest.

I didn't listen when people told me to let him get sober on his own. I didn't listen when people told me that if he died, he died. I didn't - because I loved him, because I'm stubborn and because I trusted my intuition more than I trusted another person's advice. Do I regret any of that? No. I know I made the right choice.

We're not together anymore, but I'm proud of how far he's come. I still love him deeply. The same friends who used to put him down and tell me that he was a "loser", are now impressed with the fact that he's attending one of the top law schools. I saw that potential in him all along.

So, just like these threads are personal for you, they're personal for me too. A lot of people close to me have been addicted. But I try not to paint all addicts with the same brush. They're not all losers. They're not all deadbeats. They're not all hopeless. And no, progression is NOT inevitable. I maintain HOPE because I know hope works. I've seen it work and I can testify to that.

I try not to be cynical and angry because when I'm like that, I'm not happy. Plain and simple. I still love my ex despite his betrayal. I have forgiven him. I don't do it for him, I do it for me. Loving him and letting go of the anger brings me peace and contentment. I'm not trying to be a saint or trying to show anyone up, I'm just maintaining the outlook and attitude that brings joy into my life.

So do I think the studies (more than one, may I point out) are valid? From what I have read, it seems they are. No evidence has been brought forth that contradicts them. And it does validate what I have experienced.

Do I think that people should feel bad or ashamed? Even guilty? Of course not. Guilt and shame are a form of self-hate, I would hope that people would recognize those emotions for what they are. No one should beat themselves up over what they couldn't control, or what they weren't able to do. I would never advocate that and I hope that wasn't interpreted from my posts.

PinkCloudsCharley

Well said, Chantal.

ladyscribbler

I like how you said that about creating and environment that allowed his addiction. I also helped my ex create that environment by living in denial and enabling him. I thought I was helping him and that my love would save him.
When I removed myself from the environment, he replaced me with someone who continued to enable him.
Until they are ready to change (like your husband) they are going to create those circumstances that allow them to continue in their addiction.
My ex will tell perfect strangers that it is THEIR fault, lol.