Saw This On FaceBook
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Originally Posted by fairlyuncertain 
Maybe I can't be the kind of love that a particular person needs. But I still have a lot to offer to my community and family. And so do you all!
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allforcnm -
Do you have any resources that describe what you talked about? Any books or articles?
I think the new research being done is exciting and I'm happy to see that people are trying different approaches and getting good results.
I agree with what you said about "rock bottom" not working. But it's a method that has been used for so long that many don't question its effectiveness. Hopefully with more stories like yours, people will start to see that there are other more beneficial methods out there.
Thank you!
Do you have any resources that describe what you talked about? Any books or articles?
I think the new research being done is exciting and I'm happy to see that people are trying different approaches and getting good results.
I agree with what you said about "rock bottom" not working. But it's a method that has been used for so long that many don't question its effectiveness. Hopefully with more stories like yours, people will start to see that there are other more beneficial methods out there.
Thank you!
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Sooooo glad others have had reactions similar to mine.
Oh! Blame the parents for not making one's environment enriching enough! Blame the spouse for not loving the addict enough!
Great.
Guess what? I don't know many drug addicts, but I've known a number of alcoholics. Every single one of them had families and friends who tried desperately to deflect, distract, love, encourage the addict into sobriety. I've spent five years on a board for widows and widowers to know that many of the addicts had meaningful jobs, loving spouses, adored children, and still OD-ed, died of liver failure, wrapped a car around a tree...
It's bad enough what some go through, thinking "If I'd known my husband was drinking, I could have saved him." Some in-laws blame the surviving spouse for creating the addict or not doing all possible. Now along comes this article. Bonus point for implying that all addicts are homeless, jobless, individuals who have been abused, neglected and abandoned by everyone who should have tried to help them.
Oh! Blame the parents for not making one's environment enriching enough! Blame the spouse for not loving the addict enough!
Great.
Guess what? I don't know many drug addicts, but I've known a number of alcoholics. Every single one of them had families and friends who tried desperately to deflect, distract, love, encourage the addict into sobriety. I've spent five years on a board for widows and widowers to know that many of the addicts had meaningful jobs, loving spouses, adored children, and still OD-ed, died of liver failure, wrapped a car around a tree...
It's bad enough what some go through, thinking "If I'd known my husband was drinking, I could have saved him." Some in-laws blame the surviving spouse for creating the addict or not doing all possible. Now along comes this article. Bonus point for implying that all addicts are homeless, jobless, individuals who have been abused, neglected and abandoned by everyone who should have tried to help them.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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Just an interesting aside:
I've had addicts/alcoholics tell me that sometimes the support and kudos from family members/loved ones just for not drinking/drugging was enough to send them back to drinking/drugging. Apparently, in some, it can produce shame for being complimented on just doing what they feel they should already be able to do, and, an overwhelming fear of being unable to hold up to those expectations.
I've yet to hear a recovered alcoholic/addict, with a good amount of time in recovery, while speaking in terms of helping an active alcoholic/addict, say to love them more or that they need more social interaction to kick their addiction. Nope. Never. I have heard them say, over and over again, that there is not a single thing that anyone can do except let them fall and hope they eventually find the internal strength to decide to want recovery for themselves.
I still love many of the A's in my life. My mother being the most significant. She's never been socially isolated or unloved. She has an enormous support network. She has a very large group of friends that she engages with often. She has a wonderful husband that couldn't be a better person than he is. She has a beautiful home and vacation house. Her children love her, her grandchildren love her, her nieces and nephews and brothers and sisters love her. She basically wants for nothing... at least externally. Internally, who knows? But nothing that we do can change what she feels inside. We couldn't love the woman any more than we all do. And, she's still an alcoholic. She's been an alcoholic since I can remember. She readily admits that she'll always be an alcoholic and at this point, we all accept her for who she is and accept that it'll probably never change.
So, I guess my mom's the one rat that continued to choose the cocaine/heroin laced water in the beautiful, social rat park.
I personally just can't agree with this study at all. Too much life and work experience that proves otherwise.
I've had addicts/alcoholics tell me that sometimes the support and kudos from family members/loved ones just for not drinking/drugging was enough to send them back to drinking/drugging. Apparently, in some, it can produce shame for being complimented on just doing what they feel they should already be able to do, and, an overwhelming fear of being unable to hold up to those expectations.
I've yet to hear a recovered alcoholic/addict, with a good amount of time in recovery, while speaking in terms of helping an active alcoholic/addict, say to love them more or that they need more social interaction to kick their addiction. Nope. Never. I have heard them say, over and over again, that there is not a single thing that anyone can do except let them fall and hope they eventually find the internal strength to decide to want recovery for themselves.
I still love many of the A's in my life. My mother being the most significant. She's never been socially isolated or unloved. She has an enormous support network. She has a very large group of friends that she engages with often. She has a wonderful husband that couldn't be a better person than he is. She has a beautiful home and vacation house. Her children love her, her grandchildren love her, her nieces and nephews and brothers and sisters love her. She basically wants for nothing... at least externally. Internally, who knows? But nothing that we do can change what she feels inside. We couldn't love the woman any more than we all do. And, she's still an alcoholic. She's been an alcoholic since I can remember. She readily admits that she'll always be an alcoholic and at this point, we all accept her for who she is and accept that it'll probably never change.
So, I guess my mom's the one rat that continued to choose the cocaine/heroin laced water in the beautiful, social rat park.
I personally just can't agree with this study at all. Too much life and work experience that proves otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Chantal88
allforcnm -
I agree with what you said about "rock bottom" not working. But it's a method that has been used for so long that many don't question its effectiveness.
I agree with what you said about "rock bottom" not working. But it's a method that has been used for so long that many don't question its effectiveness.
I'm unsure as to exactly who is upset in this thread? I see an interesting and lively discussion, but nobody seems particularly upset to me. Maybe I'm missing something?
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Originally Posted by LvWrAM123
I am active in the adoption community and have studied a lot about attachment, and incidentally, my RAH was adopted, and yes, I think there are some attachment/abandonment issues that have played a role in his issues.
But here is the thing-attachment is a 2-way relationship. Most health and mental health related issues are "caused" by a combination of genetic AND environmental factors. If a person is in an environment where there is no one to attach/connect to, that will have an impact on them, and I can see how it could be one contributing factor to developing an addiction or other mental/behavioral disorder.
But here is the thing-attachment is a 2-way relationship. Most health and mental health related issues are "caused" by a combination of genetic AND environmental factors. If a person is in an environment where there is no one to attach/connect to, that will have an impact on them, and I can see how it could be one contributing factor to developing an addiction or other mental/behavioral disorder.
Have you by chance seen the documentary "The Dark Matter of Love"? It deals with abandonment and the attachment disorders that develop. Very good doc and very hard for me to watch. It's about a family that takes in 3 orphans from Russia. Very enlightening and it also has a good ending.
I think that addiction is very complex and like you said, one person loving an addict is not enough. But attachment and bonding does seem to play some part that we're only beginning to understand.
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Originally Posted by happybeingme
Chantal- if you go to the secular connections for friends and family forum you will find all four is doing a thread on the book she has mentioned in this thread. It is interesting.
I will check it out!
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Originally Posted by Chantal88
Mostly I think it tried to advocate building a loving and supporting community for the alcoholic to recover in.
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Originally Posted by Needabreak
I used to try to do this with my addicted ex. After a few years I saw the futility of it, and the damage I was incurring to my own life, and I realized I was far better off ending that relationship and using my energy to build a loving and supporting community for myself.
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Originally Posted by Chantal88
One person cannot build a loving and supporting community for anyone. I think that was kind of the point of the article if I am not mistaken. Community means many people coming together.
We don't live in a world full of community support & "love thy neighbor" in many areas of the country & world. We live in a world full of liability & lawsuits & where basic needs like standard healthcare or whole foods can be out of reach for many families. A loving & supportive community would help all kinds of things & all kinds of people -but that doesn't make it a realistic possibility, does it?
And to play Devil's Advocate, don't we already have that to some extent - and to the extent that a person has to want to reach out for that support? AA, Al-Anon, Mommy Groups, Counseling, Tutoring, SHARE clubs, Co-ops, etc?
Maybe I'm missing the point entirely.
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Consider the source........
READERS of the Independent were in for a surprise this morning: a lengthy apology from that newspaper's star columnist Johann Hari, admitting to plagiarism and the online harrassment of rival journalists (via pseudonymous assaults on their Wikipedia entries), and announcing that he was off to take a course of journalism training at his own expense.
Allegations of quote-stealing and factual embellishment by Mr Hari have been swirling for months, at first in the blogosphere and then in the mainstream media. I have not posted about the whole sorry saga to date because—at the end of the day—a hack is only a hack, and the press already spends too much time talking and thinking about itself.
READERS of the Independent were in for a surprise this morning: a lengthy apology from that newspaper's star columnist Johann Hari, admitting to plagiarism and the online harrassment of rival journalists (via pseudonymous assaults on their Wikipedia entries), and announcing that he was off to take a course of journalism training at his own expense.
Allegations of quote-stealing and factual embellishment by Mr Hari have been swirling for months, at first in the blogosphere and then in the mainstream media. I have not posted about the whole sorry saga to date because—at the end of the day—a hack is only a hack, and the press already spends too much time talking and thinking about itself.
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Fire -
I think you're right. But most studies done on animals (monkeys, rats, etc) are about idealized ways of interacting. Humans are social animals like primates and rats, so we operate at our best when we are in communities that nurture and support us.
Studies done for addiction also show that alzheimers and dementia symptoms are improved with supportive, stimulating environments. I'm sure there are many other disorders (depression, bipolar, etc) that would improve as well.
I'm not sure if these support groups meet the same need that a community does. I have been apart of different organizations and clubs in the past. But for the most part I spent my time working and at home (like I am now, on my computer). The unique thing about being part of a community versus a club or support group - is that the community is always there. You're always connected to others. In my mind I'm imagining a small communal town, where everyone knows everyone sort of thing.
Like you said, is it realistic? Maybe not. But at least we have the info available so we can build towards that if we chose.
But now I understand why I prefer small, community towns over big cities. It fills a need.
I think you're right. But most studies done on animals (monkeys, rats, etc) are about idealized ways of interacting. Humans are social animals like primates and rats, so we operate at our best when we are in communities that nurture and support us.
Studies done for addiction also show that alzheimers and dementia symptoms are improved with supportive, stimulating environments. I'm sure there are many other disorders (depression, bipolar, etc) that would improve as well.
I'm not sure if these support groups meet the same need that a community does. I have been apart of different organizations and clubs in the past. But for the most part I spent my time working and at home (like I am now, on my computer). The unique thing about being part of a community versus a club or support group - is that the community is always there. You're always connected to others. In my mind I'm imagining a small communal town, where everyone knows everyone sort of thing.
Like you said, is it realistic? Maybe not. But at least we have the info available so we can build towards that if we chose.
But now I understand why I prefer small, community towns over big cities. It fills a need.
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Good work, Flyboy! It amazes me how many people read and disseminate stuff as gospel without doing their due diligence. Sounds like the author of this article is a real piece of work.
Hacking his competitors' Wiki articles, yeah that's really loving and nurturing......
Hacking his competitors' Wiki articles, yeah that's really loving and nurturing......
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As we have all learned through our collective experiences our loved ones in addiction can range from the most severe of addicts to problem users with both creating chaos in their families and society. As has been noted advances in brain science has been unraveling the mysteries of why addicts react so differently to chemical substances and even how their brains "trigger" when subliminal images unseen to the eye are flashed before them.
How many rats were addictive? Problem users? Normies? I have a history of addiction in my family yet I am one who did quit cocaine and marijuania cold turkey 30 years ago while everyone else partied on...many became severely addicted. (It was the seventies) Yet I am a known workaholic...go figure.
Quittting is not a problem for a normie rat especially in ratopia. Quiting as a problem user rat would not be a problem in ratopia. How many rats were addictive as we know our loved ones in severe addiction?
And it is well known that humans or rats or most creatures for that matter suffer terribly if isolated. That is why it is used in prisons and even a means of torture... it is not surprising that these rats got high when subjected to isolation.
It is nonsense. And turns out the writer is a fraudster too. Not surprised.
How many rats were addictive? Problem users? Normies? I have a history of addiction in my family yet I am one who did quit cocaine and marijuania cold turkey 30 years ago while everyone else partied on...many became severely addicted. (It was the seventies) Yet I am a known workaholic...go figure.
Quittting is not a problem for a normie rat especially in ratopia. Quiting as a problem user rat would not be a problem in ratopia. How many rats were addictive as we know our loved ones in severe addiction?
And it is well known that humans or rats or most creatures for that matter suffer terribly if isolated. That is why it is used in prisons and even a means of torture... it is not surprising that these rats got high when subjected to isolation.
It is nonsense. And turns out the writer is a fraudster too. Not surprised.
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Originally Posted by FlippedRHalo
Except that we come here to reach out to others who've been in our shoes. Most of us haven't been in our A's shoes. Recovered A's have, which is why they're encouraged to reach out to them in groups such as AA and in various other support groups dealing with addiction/alcoholism, etc...
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The point is that I don't think there is a single person here that's been involved with an addicted/alcoholic loved one that wouldn't do just about anything to end the cycle of addiction and help that loved one if we could. And most of us have tried everything.
It's an indescribably relentless kind of pain to watch the person you love, be it a spouse, child, parent, sibling, etc.., slowly destroy themselves and know that you've tried every trick in the book, yet, you just can not reach them.
It's the kind of hurt that scars your very soul when you come to the realization that you can't reach them and know that for your own (and often for your children, too) mental well being, stability, and sanity, you have to let go. Not many of us get to this point, or do this easily. I know I fought for all I was worth to hold on and help him, and it wasn't until I absolutely knew I was sinking with him that I had to cut the safety rope and run for my life. It's heart-wrenching to see someone sink. It's ever more heart-wrenching to watch two go down because one refused to save themselves and the other refused to let go.
Unfortunately, and especially for those of us with children, we can't allow ourselves to go down with the ship.
Addiction/alcoholism is one of the cruelest diseases I've ever been witness to. Life altering not only for the A, but for everyone that loves and cares about them.
Like I've heard so many times on this board - sometimes we have to let go or be dragged. Doesn't mean we love them any less or that we don't care tremendously. It just means we can't fix them and we realize that.
It's an indescribably relentless kind of pain to watch the person you love, be it a spouse, child, parent, sibling, etc.., slowly destroy themselves and know that you've tried every trick in the book, yet, you just can not reach them.
It's the kind of hurt that scars your very soul when you come to the realization that you can't reach them and know that for your own (and often for your children, too) mental well being, stability, and sanity, you have to let go. Not many of us get to this point, or do this easily. I know I fought for all I was worth to hold on and help him, and it wasn't until I absolutely knew I was sinking with him that I had to cut the safety rope and run for my life. It's heart-wrenching to see someone sink. It's ever more heart-wrenching to watch two go down because one refused to save themselves and the other refused to let go.
Unfortunately, and especially for those of us with children, we can't allow ourselves to go down with the ship.
Addiction/alcoholism is one of the cruelest diseases I've ever been witness to. Life altering not only for the A, but for everyone that loves and cares about them.
Like I've heard so many times on this board - sometimes we have to let go or be dragged. Doesn't mean we love them any less or that we don't care tremendously. It just means we can't fix them and we realize that.
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