Narcissistic Entitlement
To thine own self be true.
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
There are several disease models used to describe alcoholism. The disease concept of alcoholism is not accepted by everyone, however. Though nowadays, it is pretty widely accepted that alcoholism is an inheritable disease, and they have even found the genes that code for it. The disease model of alcoholism does not mean we excuse the alcoholic for their behavior. The disease of alcoholism means that if the person with the disease drinks alcohol, they become addicted to it. The disease is incurable but it can be halted, but only by complete abstinence.
The disease of alcoholism is NOTHING like the disease of depression. I am both an alcoholic and a person who has struggled with chronic, recurring depression throughout my entire life. I choose to control my alcoholism by abstaining completely from ANY alcohol intake. This is a CHOICE. I CANNOT control my depression by abstaining from anything except perhaps negativity and things that depress me. I seek medical attention from doctors and therapists for treatment of my depression.
The disease of alcoholism is NOTHING like the disease of depression. I am both an alcoholic and a person who has struggled with chronic, recurring depression throughout my entire life. I choose to control my alcoholism by abstaining completely from ANY alcohol intake. This is a CHOICE. I CANNOT control my depression by abstaining from anything except perhaps negativity and things that depress me. I seek medical attention from doctors and therapists for treatment of my depression.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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I've seen Dr. Amen speak and have also read two of his books. I have a clinically depressed close friend who goes to him for treatment. He does clearly talk about the physical damage - perhaps using "holes" was the wrong word. There is definite physical changes and deterioration of the organ. Healing can happen but it takes a lot of time, up to 2 years.
On the Amen image scan gallery it showed a brain in the midst of addiction and also a follow-up around 2 years later - the difference is stunning! And actually hopeful! (not sure if those photos are still up there - )
Nobody is talking about excuses but knowledge goes a long way.
The addicted brain is not a healthy organ. In the same way that depression, or many other mental illnesses, is not a choice, living with the disease called addiction is not a choice. Not drinking is but when your brain, especially in the few years after quitting, is unable to think rationally making a good decision is affected. Which is why - they are told it is incurable and to live one day at a time. Baby steps. There are also stages of this disease -
We may decide that the healthiest choice is not to live with or associate with someone with this disease - but it is a disease none-the-less. I sincerely doubt that any healthy brain would "choose" to live the absolute hell of addiction.
Appreciate your thoughts!
On the Amen image scan gallery it showed a brain in the midst of addiction and also a follow-up around 2 years later - the difference is stunning! And actually hopeful! (not sure if those photos are still up there - )
Nobody is talking about excuses but knowledge goes a long way.
The addicted brain is not a healthy organ. In the same way that depression, or many other mental illnesses, is not a choice, living with the disease called addiction is not a choice. Not drinking is but when your brain, especially in the few years after quitting, is unable to think rationally making a good decision is affected. Which is why - they are told it is incurable and to live one day at a time. Baby steps. There are also stages of this disease -
We may decide that the healthiest choice is not to live with or associate with someone with this disease - but it is a disease none-the-less. I sincerely doubt that any healthy brain would "choose" to live the absolute hell of addiction.
Appreciate your thoughts!
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 378
From Dr. Amen >
"There is really quite a bit of scientific literature on the physiological effects of drug abuse and alcohol on the brain. SPECT Scans have demonstrated a number of abnormalities in substance abusers in brain areas known to be involved in behavior, such as the frontal and temporal lobes. There are some SPECT similarities and differences between the damage we see caused by the different substances of abuse. I’ll discuss the differences in drug abuse patterns below. There tends to be several similarities seen among classes of abused drugs. The most common similarity among drug and alcohol abusers is that the brain has an overall toxic look to it. In general, the SPECT Scan studies look less active, more shriveled, and overall less healthy. A "scalloping effect" is common amongst drug abusing brains.
Normal brain patterns show smooth activity across the cortical surface. Scalloping is a wavy, rough sea-like look on the brain’s surface. I also see this pattern in patients who have been exposed to toxic fumes or oxygen deprivation. My research assistant says that the drug brains she has seen look like someone poured acid on the brain. Not a pretty site."
If anyone would like to see these scans and info, here is the link - shows a 1 year follow-up.
Alcohol and Drug Abuse
"There is really quite a bit of scientific literature on the physiological effects of drug abuse and alcohol on the brain. SPECT Scans have demonstrated a number of abnormalities in substance abusers in brain areas known to be involved in behavior, such as the frontal and temporal lobes. There are some SPECT similarities and differences between the damage we see caused by the different substances of abuse. I’ll discuss the differences in drug abuse patterns below. There tends to be several similarities seen among classes of abused drugs. The most common similarity among drug and alcohol abusers is that the brain has an overall toxic look to it. In general, the SPECT Scan studies look less active, more shriveled, and overall less healthy. A "scalloping effect" is common amongst drug abusing brains.
Normal brain patterns show smooth activity across the cortical surface. Scalloping is a wavy, rough sea-like look on the brain’s surface. I also see this pattern in patients who have been exposed to toxic fumes or oxygen deprivation. My research assistant says that the drug brains she has seen look like someone poured acid on the brain. Not a pretty site."
If anyone would like to see these scans and info, here is the link - shows a 1 year follow-up.
Alcohol and Drug Abuse
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 198
L2L, thank you for the links. My STBXAH is the epitome of a covert-aggressive. Those examples above appear to be taken straight from my r/s. I used to think AH was just being difficult. Nothing I suggested was ever good enough for him, it was constant bickering type shite where resolutions werent quite ever reached. Asking for more in a husband than just a bank account, forget it. I was the ungrateful wife!
Now that we've been separated I realize the abuse I took and that my boundaries were consistently over-ridden by my husband. I'm angry at him, but angry at myself more for putting up with it all.
I have a lot of healing to do. Some days I am strong and feel great, but on days like today where one email from him can bother me all mf day and derail my productivity. I stopped taking his calls over a month ago.
Now that we've been separated I realize the abuse I took and that my boundaries were consistently over-ridden by my husband. I'm angry at him, but angry at myself more for putting up with it all.
I have a lot of healing to do. Some days I am strong and feel great, but on days like today where one email from him can bother me all mf day and derail my productivity. I stopped taking his calls over a month ago.
To thine own self be true.
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
That's where I am too MMK11. I would be completely derailed if I allowed him to call or text me. That's why I cut him off completely when I realized what was going on. It's been hard these past couple months but I know I'll get through this. I just have to keep reminding myself to breathe.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 198
L2L, I don't know about you but I can't differentiate the man from the disease. I saw STBAXH on Tuesday for the first time in over a month. I didn't feel anything for him I don't think. He is a ball of anger and has done nothing but annoy me with self-serving rants and BS since he filed for divorce. I just feel disgust for him. He came into my/our house and he's pissy and wanting to complain and make me feel bad for what my attorney is doing in the legal proceeding, aka what I'm paying him to do. He mentioned how "unfair" he's being treated. That's is at least the tenth time he's brought up fairness. I said, "let's not open up the discussion in what we each think is fair bc I know for damn sure you don't want to hear my opinion; you can see yourself out." the look on his face was pure shock. He slammed the door and left.
I'm just ready for my divorce to be final. I'm tired of dealing. You're fortunate that you can decide to be done and that's that. I'm sorry for your pain though hon. It's like getting the rug taken out from underneath you once they completely cut us off from the attention they showered on us. They make it look easy. But the also underestimate our strength in not remaining under their control.
Today's a new day.
I'm just ready for my divorce to be final. I'm tired of dealing. You're fortunate that you can decide to be done and that's that. I'm sorry for your pain though hon. It's like getting the rug taken out from underneath you once they completely cut us off from the attention they showered on us. They make it look easy. But the also underestimate our strength in not remaining under their control.
Today's a new day.
To thine own self be true.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 5,924
Originally Posted by mmk11 
L2L, I don't know about you but I can't differentiate the man from the disease. I saw STBAXH on Tuesday for the first time in over a month. I didn't feel anything for him I don't think. He is a ball of anger and has done nothing but annoy me with self-serving rants and BS since he filed for divorce. I just feel disgust for him. He came into my/our house and he's pissy and wanting to complain and make me feel bad for what my attorney is doing in the legal proceeding, aka what I'm paying him to do. He mentioned how "unfair" he's being treated. That's is at least the tenth time he's brought up fairness. I said, "let's not open up the discussion in what we each think is fair bc I know for damn sure you don't want to hear my opinion; you can see yourself out." the look on his face was pure shock. He slammed the door and left.
I'm just ready for my divorce to be final. I'm tired of dealing. You're fortunate that you can decide to be done and that's that. I'm sorry for your pain though hon. It's like getting the rug taken out from underneath you once they completely cut us off from the attention they showered on us. They make it look easy. But the also underestimate our strength in not remaining under their control.
Today's a new day.
I'm just ready for my divorce to be final. I'm tired of dealing. You're fortunate that you can decide to be done and that's that. I'm sorry for your pain though hon. It's like getting the rug taken out from underneath you once they completely cut us off from the attention they showered on us. They make it look easy. But the also underestimate our strength in not remaining under their control.
Today's a new day.
AXBF divorced his wife and complained constantly about having to pay her child support. Nevermind that she paid the mortgage on the house, had full physical custody of the kids, etc. In his mind (and, tiringly, in his words) she was a piece of crap. He just wanted to get out of paying child support! I didn't realize it at the time but his family member told me that truth after we split.
Yes, I am grateful that I did not have children with AXBF. The longer I am away from him, the more I realize I did not know the person he truly was, because yes, he showered me with so much love and affection I had NO IDEA. The pain is lessening but it is still difficult. Thanks mmk11. Your post really helps me today.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 490
My XAH came to my house today to collect some more of his crap.
He asked if he could take one of the office chairs. I asked him which one. He gestured towards our teenage son's office chair. The office chair our teenage son was using, actually sitting on while he was using his computer. He would whip the chair out from under his own kid FFS!
I didn't let him take the damn chair.
He asked if he could take one of the office chairs. I asked him which one. He gestured towards our teenage son's office chair. The office chair our teenage son was using, actually sitting on while he was using his computer. He would whip the chair out from under his own kid FFS!
I didn't let him take the damn chair.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: rural Germany
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Originally Posted by Learn2Live
The disease concept of alcoholism is not accepted by everyone, however.
The problem is that addiction does not behave like a disease. There has not yet been any specific gene found that can be pointed at to say "this child is almost certain to develop the disease." There is no test that can be done to diagnose the disease either. Even a post-mortem examination is not able to show specific evidence pointing to the "disease" of alcoholism.
The problem inherent in classifying alcoholism as a disease becomes easier to show when we use the example of cigarette smoking. How many people view smoking as a disease?
So we either have to change the medical definition of "disease", or change the popular definition of alcoholism. Otherwise the split in opinion between the public, (which includes self-help groups), and the professionals will continue.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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I don't care who defines it and which definition is the most popular. It makes not one iota of difference to me.
I want my children's father to be healthy. I want him to stop calling me a f@#$ing c@#t b@#ch in front of my children. I want him to wake up one day and realise that the blood coming out of his arse and into the toilet is due to what he drinks and drugs and then to find something, ANYTHING that will get him off the ride before he slides into an early grave.
I want my children's father to be healthy. I want him to stop calling me a f@#$ing c@#t b@#ch in front of my children. I want him to wake up one day and realise that the blood coming out of his arse and into the toilet is due to what he drinks and drugs and then to find something, ANYTHING that will get him off the ride before he slides into an early grave.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: rural Germany
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The hardest thing to accept is that it doesn't matter what we want for the alcoholic. All that matters is what the alcoholic wants.
Once we accept those all important Three Cs (didn't cause, can't control or cure), then we can start working on our situation so that we no longer have to listen to insults in front of our children, or deal with blood in the toilet.
But first we have to let go.
Once we accept those all important Three Cs (didn't cause, can't control or cure), then we can start working on our situation so that we no longer have to listen to insults in front of our children, or deal with blood in the toilet.
But first we have to let go.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Originally Posted by Hypatia
Once we accept those all important Three Cs (didn't cause, can't control or cure), then we can start working on our situation so that we no longer have to listen to insults in front of our children, or deal with blood in the toilet.
Originally Posted by Hypatia
But first we have to let go.
When he left I was too afraid to ask him to hand over his set of house keys because he would have caused a major scene.
When he was here today, to collect more of his crap, I asked for his house keys to my house.
At first he said NO.
I said to him that not only did I not have keys to his place I did not even know his address. He handed the keys to my house over. At first he said that I could have a set of keys to his place. LMFAO! :rotfxko I said I wasn't interested.
I have wondered if he may have had my house keys copied but, because he is useless at even putting the garbage out on the right day, and also because to get the keys copied would require some effort on his part, and he can't do effort, I think I am safe.
I have his set of my house keys safely hidden, now.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
Originally Posted by Lulu39
Well, I made him move out so I don't have to listen to the insults in front of the children. I only hear the insults when we discuss the children.
I'm trying. And now I'm venting. Can I let go tomorrow?
When he left I was too afraid to ask him to hand over his set of house keys because he would have caused a major scene.
When he was here today, to collect more of his crap, I asked for his house keys to my house.
At first he said NO.
I said to him that not only did I not have keys to his place I did not even know his address. He handed the keys to my house over. At first he said that I could have a set of keys to his place. LMFAO! :rotfxko I said I wasn't interested.
I have wondered if he may have had my house keys copied but, because he is useless at even putting the garbage out on the right day, and also because to get the keys copied would require some effort on his part, and he can't do effort, I think I am safe.
I have his set of my house keys safely hidden, now.
I'm trying. And now I'm venting. Can I let go tomorrow?
When he left I was too afraid to ask him to hand over his set of house keys because he would have caused a major scene.
When he was here today, to collect more of his crap, I asked for his house keys to my house.
At first he said NO.
I said to him that not only did I not have keys to his place I did not even know his address. He handed the keys to my house over. At first he said that I could have a set of keys to his place. LMFAO! :rotfxko I said I wasn't interested.
I have wondered if he may have had my house keys copied but, because he is useless at even putting the garbage out on the right day, and also because to get the keys copied would require some effort on his part, and he can't do effort, I think I am safe.
I have his set of my house keys safely hidden, now.
Make sure that you document that he has moved out for legal reasons... if he left any belongings get them out of the house. He has the right to be there unless he has vacated. In Florida, if you let someone stay with you for an extended period of time they are considered residents and have legal rights and require being evicted if they won't voluntarily leave. The legal test for law enforcement is often whether there is a toothbrush on property for the alleged resident! Make sure you throw that away in case he changes his mind and wants to move back in against your wishes.
It's hard to shake an alcoholic and ususally them come crawling back trying to get back in the safe, comfy codie homebase.
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,175
In my experience it was after my exAH got sober that I reaized that his narcissism was not about being an alcoholic, but that his alcoholism was about managing his controlling narcissistic behavior.
He is so controlling and narcissistic that he has panic attacks and fearful episodes when things are not within his control.
Narcissism in a pathological sense arises oout of a severe lack of sense of self. For my exAH this comes out of a terribly abusive and dysfunctional childhood.
Its as if he is extrememly insecure, and he compensates.
NO excuse, though.
I came from a terirbly abusive and dysfunctional FOO, also.
I am not a narcissist.
But this leads to the question of why we as CoDependents are drawn to such narcissitic folks.
There is much to be read about how these two fit together.
For myself, t has been about changing my tapes and my plugs to not fit into that dance anymore. I cant change him after all, and know that now, but I do not want to attract yet another Narcissist in sheeps clothing, and that condition is in no way exclusive to addicts.
He is so controlling and narcissistic that he has panic attacks and fearful episodes when things are not within his control.
Narcissism in a pathological sense arises oout of a severe lack of sense of self. For my exAH this comes out of a terribly abusive and dysfunctional childhood.
Its as if he is extrememly insecure, and he compensates.
NO excuse, though.
I came from a terirbly abusive and dysfunctional FOO, also.
I am not a narcissist.
But this leads to the question of why we as CoDependents are drawn to such narcissitic folks.
There is much to be read about how these two fit together.
For myself, t has been about changing my tapes and my plugs to not fit into that dance anymore. I cant change him after all, and know that now, but I do not want to attract yet another Narcissist in sheeps clothing, and that condition is in no way exclusive to addicts.
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