trublnshangrila

I could've written that, l2l. In my case, I consistently choose unavailable men who don't love me (my latest alcoholic) and then bend over backward and chase to "win" them. Got really burned this time.

EnoughEnough

I thought about this last night while talking to abf and realized every time I talked about something (work, my son, the weather) he would respond with something that invariably involved the words I and/or ME.

Me: We (my son and I) had a lot of fun in the car on the drive home memorizing state capitals - you should have heard all the funny word associations we came up with.
Him: You have fun with me too.
.....
Me: Boy, it's really chilly out tonight.
Him: But you're hot for me right?
.....
Me: The dogs sound like they need to go out, they're getting restless.
Him: I'm not restless, can we snuggle?

Me: (trying to see if he really does it EVERY TIME - it was either laugh about it or get peeved by the end of the evening) mumble mumble TWINKIES mumble
Him: That sounds good, go get me one.



Day 7 of no alcohol for him, 2 days till I move. Serenity now!
Jen

PohsFriend

This one is tricky. After many years with someone who I now understand to have many characterisitics of a cerebral narcissist I escaped that and fell in love with an alcoholic. There are some parallels and codies (crap, recently came to understand that this is a big part of what is wrong with me) could easily be attracted to both.

Classic NPD is a big deal and the prognosis for them is probably worse than for an alcoholic. Just because you go through the list of characteristics and can find something in your sig other in each of them is not sufficient to make a diagnosis. Diagnosing people requires testing and observation from a trained person who is qualified to do that. It's always nice to play amateur pshrink but to tell someone they are NPD would be verbal abuse if you are not such a person. I know, I was told by the ex who exhibited those signs that I was one according to her therapist (who had never met me) as related by her. That scared me to death when I read about NPD until I had a chance to ask my therapist - he laughed because if I had it, I would not be so upset about the possibility that I am terrible for my loved ones. That would never occur to a narcissist. It does occur to an alcoholic though. My wife is terrified of not being a good enough mom or wife because of her disease now that she is sober. If she wasn't sober, the capacity to see it or be bothered by it might not be there.

The diagnostic criteria are easily googled but the key thing really is that an NPD person lacks empathy. They literally lack the ability to understand how the things they do hurt those around them. Classic examples are when they put you down for 'your own good' or to 'motivate you'. Then when you are hurt and tell them that is abusive or a therapist does thay are annoyed at your weakness. Healthy people are bothered when their actions hurt others.

Addicts exhibit a similar behavior and it makes some sense. A narcissist uses their 'perfect' family to hide their issues - they generally know they are 'different' and show 'normalcy' by having that perfect family. Woe unto the family member who embarasses them by being imperfect. An addict knows full well that they can't function and take care of themselves when using and need someone who will handle things while they are checked out and incapacitated. On the surface, both are knowingly or unknowingly using those around them and doing a lot more 'taking' than giving.

...but unless you are dealing with a dual diagnosis it is not the same thing. The addict hates that they do damage to their loved ones and it adds to the guilt and depression that feeds their need to escape. I don't believe that they don't care though.

The good news I guess is that you (i) don't need to figure that out. We need to simply understand what is and is not reasonable and acceptable to us and set appropriate boundaries. If we are always giving and never making even the most basic and reasonable demands then well, it's our problem. I figured out that this was an issue for me after 40 years and have really been working to recognize it and change myself for the past year or so.

Just a caution and food for thought... it is easy to swing too far the other way. One boundary that any good codie really needs to focus on is owning and accepting their own feelings, asserting their right to have those feelings and express them honestly and not feeling guilty for having them. Once I figured that one out I swung too far the other way - when someone tells me what I feel or should feel or how much or for how long or passes judgment on how I feel I get very angry and slam that door hard. It would be better if I could just say "Look, you do not have the right or my permission to tell me what to feel or pass judgment on how I feel". ...and then walk away.

The toughest thing for me to accept lately is that sick attracts sick. I would not be where I am facing these issues and trying to solve them if it were not for the fact that I am just as messed up as my alcoholic wife but in different ways. My hope is that if we are both focusing on our own issues then we can eventually get to a point where we recognize our own issues and each others and can work through them together without either of us feeling like the 'bad person' in the relationship. Nobody is going to be healthy if they are always feeling (or being told) that they are the not only screwed up, but that they are screwing up life for the other.

LOL, nobody has to drive us nuts... if we are here thinking about these things it is a short walk :-) Now that I get that, I am trying to walk the other direction.

Learn2Live

Thanks for sharing this trublnshangrila. Because I always feel like I am the only one with my issues and I'm constantly beating myself up about things I did and did not do, blaming me, yadayada.

You know, it doesn't matter whether or not you are the one to have done the chasing. Their M.O. is the same as so many hundreds of stories I have read here on SR. AXBF pursued me like MAD. He just would not let me be. I've learned from Dr. Simon's book that this is called "Aggression." I never understood it or put this word to his behavior, but once I did, I understood. And now reading about Narcissists, it is beginning to make more sense. It's like a fricking GAME to them, and they don't give a rat's ass who gets hurt.

ZiggyB

It is very difficult to get people into treatment who don't want to go - I understand narcissists are very reluctant to admit anything is wrong with them or they might need help. In any case I could never convince my ex that he needed counseling even thought he suffered from depression and anger problems, so that was pretty difficult for me. Sometimes we have no choice but to play amateur shrink which is actually pretty unfair when you are that person's partner and they dump all their issues on you. I understand your point though.

PohsFriend

That's because we have a need for things to make sense Ziggy :-)

That whole helplessness thing don't sit well, does it?

ZiggyB

I was not good at helplessness, I think that explains why we are no longer together. ;-)

trublnshangrila

you are definitely not alone, L2L
I don't get that someone who told me he "wanted to settle down," was
generous and sweet could become such a rude, callous, selfish jerk. He told me he wasn't seeing anyone and had no ties, suddenly he's showing me photos of VERY young girls he says he is "hooking up with," one an alcoholic like him, another recently divorced w/ bipolar disorder. The hurt was unbelievable.
I don't know if he was trying to sign me up to be another member of his harem but I made it clear I wouldn't sleep with him if he's having sex with two other women! I don't even know what's true as he never had the 'ability' (ahem) to have sex with me! More hurt & humiliation there. Plz excuse my frankness.
I've been history every since. The last time I saw him he actually said, "l don't give a sh*t if I see you or not, we're not dating." I''ve been no contact since but it's been difficult coming to terms with his self-centered disregard for my feelings. I know one thing, he's changed and is getting worse - mean, isolating.
Can someone plz help me understand what the hell happened?

Learn2Live

Trublnshangrila, why don't you start a new thread and tell your whole story? You will get more feedback that way

AXBF pursued me very aggressively, he was the one who wanted to be in this relationship, he was the one who said he wanted to get married, and everything was good for quite some time. Or so I thought. Now, I don't even know what was the truth anymore. Not even sure he actually had any feelings for me at all and likely pursued me so he would have a place to live.

Thank you for sharing about your XBF's...ahem..."abilities," as AXBF had the same issue with HIS abilities and I also was humiliated and hurt, thought for sure it must be me.

SoBroken

hi everyone - just wondering were your A's narcissistic even when they were not drunk? my XABF was the kindest most thoughtful person u could ever meet when he was sober. but oh Lord, when he was drunk, the spotlight needed to be on HIM. Loud, arrogant, Gods gift to women....When he would come to my house i was afraid to answer the door cuz i never knew who was on the other side..Jkyll or Hyde. i got to the point where i'd talk to him thru the locked door before i'd open it. of course, i could tell instantly if he had been drinking, and if so, the door remained locked.

fourmaggie

i got this too...it was like i OWED him or something..or he was god...

AINT NEVER GONNA HAPPEN AGAIN!...*stumping with my feet on the floor*

ZiggyB

Mine could be a narcissist whether he was drunk or sober, he was just inclined to be in a much worse mood if he had been drinking. It was usually the next day, when he was hungover that I would get the full brunt of his wrath.

Learn2Live

Same here. He came here and did whatever he wanted, without any regard to me or how I wanted things. And it is MY house. It was as if HE owned the place and I was the one living here for free.

fourmaggie

ok...we must have been with the same man!

Lulu39

On my "honeymoon" with the STBXAH some 22-23 years ago I went swimming in the pool at the hotel. He sat on the deck and watched me. He refused to swim and wouldn't get in the pool.

Eventually I got out of the pool and sat on the pool deck. He went swimming, alone.

When he got out of the pool he raged at me about how when I was swimming he took lots of photographs of me swimming yet, I never took a single photograph of him while he was swimming. How dare I!

I think I remember crying in private. I didn't understand. WTF had just happened?

The thought of that day still makes my head spin.
I had no clue then.
It makes a lot of sense to me now.

Hopeworks

It is the rare alcoholic that does not transform into extreme grandiosity, selfishness and anger towards anyone who questions or threatens their alcohol use while drinking. There are a few who are "quiet" drunks and remain passive but I think most have spouses or families that do not confront and deliberately avoid conflict.

It is my unscientific guess that the narcissitic personality that develops alcoholism is the perfect storm for misery for the codies who find and attach themselves to them.

Of course, for me, the fantasy I chose to immerse myself in was that once the demon of alcohol was gone for good Prince Charming would be always present and the narcissitic, borderline evil personality that emerged while drunk would be gone forever.

Now that I am out of the relationship for going on 8 months it is clear that there were personality disorders of some degree that became complete insanity once you added alcohol.

I am with L2L... it has been extremely helpful for me to analyze the relationship, the alcoholic, the personality disorders and my own part in the dysfunctional relationship that develops in the latest A and previous relationships.

Normal people do not get emeshed with narcissists or alcoholics and they actually "see and feel" the red flags and steer clear at an early stage of the relationship.

I see the red flags and the emotionally unavailable, broken man and am DRAWN to them like the proverbial moth to the flame... subconsciously of course...but the result is the same.

Like L2L... I am not concerned about HIM or even THEM anymore... I am on a mission to figure out why I am hardwired to be drawn to the same men and only be turned on by them in a chemical...but very real... feeling of overwhelming attraction.

Am I doomed to wander the earth being bored to tears and yawning over Mr. Nice Guy???

Surely not... can I change my wiring at this late date? Or should I just finish the dance single?

sweetteewalls

The more I read these posts I see its not me...separated AH has been described specifically and you all don't even know me. This is what makes me see I need to step away from him altogether.

trublnshangrila

hopeworks writes: "It is my unscientific
guess that the narcissitic personality that develops alcoholism is the perfect storm for misery for the codies who find and attach themselvnes to them.

I am with L2L... it has been extremely helpful for me to analyze the relationship, the alcoholic, the personality disorders and my own part in the dysfunctional relationship that develops in the latest A and previous relationships.

Normal people do not get emeshed with narcissists or alcoholics and they actually "see and feel" the red flags and steer clear at an early stage of the relationship.

I see the red flags and the emotionally unavailable, broken man and am DRAWN to them like the proverbial moth to the flame... subconsciously of course...but the result is the same.

Like L2L... I am not concerned about HIM or even THEM anymore... I am on a mission to figure out why I am hardwired to be drawn to the same men and only be turned on by them in a chemical...but very real... feeling of overwhelming attraction"

I hear you, Hopeworks, and completely understand. I was so addicted to the drama, the highs and extreme lows, the ambiguity & unhealthiness of being with him that I mistook for passion and love...
And I ask myself the same questions as you! For me, I didn't love myself enough to think that I deserved better and run! I saw his issues, thought I could save him from drinking himself to death, when I should have been saving myself. If loving him meant I couldn't love myself (which it did because i would have had to heavily compromise my values ), I chose me. And every day that I'm away from him I choose me. Love is not pain, it's just pain.

Confetti

I love this forum! The more I read it, the better I feel, because I realize I am not alone. That everyone here is/has lived through a similar hell.

Mine was such a narcissist, but I never even realized it until now.

Learn2Live

ME TOO!!! Thanks for sharing your feelings Confetti! You guys really keep me sane.

Me neither. Not until I started reading these books. I really like this one by Sandy Hotchkiss because she explains what I need to work on. And she explains how we are drawn to narcissistic people in the first place. As soon as I can, I want to post more about this here.