WishingWell

I think, and God knows if "they" don't know I'm don't, addiction is a disease of the brain. It is a brain disorder that manifests itself in different forms.

We know that a chemical dependency occurs because the detox can be so dangerous. We also know from scans that the alcoholic brains look different than drug addicted brains from food addicted brains. Different forms of a brain disorder.

I don't know if each addiction is a separate disease. I don't know that anyone does . . .

And really does it matter? If drinking alcohol is a symptom of the disease of addiction or the disease itself - the outcome is the same.

*AND let me clarify - 'matter' to this board. Not the world of science.

Learn2Live

There are MANY people who do not drink and have not ever. Muslims do not drink, neither do strict Baptists. And I believe Mormons do not drink, if I'm not mistaken.

Alcoholism as a disease does not MAKE people drink. Yes, alcoholics have the power of choice just like the rest of us. Just because they have the "disease" of alcoholism does not mean they have lost the power to choose. It is not an excuse for drinking. I know MANY alcoholics and MANY alcoholics who do not drink, BY CHOICE, including me.

WishingWell

Just because they have the "disease" of alcoholism does not mean they have lost the power to choose.

It is so much more complicated than that. Some can quit and many cannot quit. It's incredible difficult for many addicts to stop. Do you really think, for instance, right now that Emily's brother on the "Catch 22" thread has the power at this moment to choose to not drink? Can you imagine what his brain would look like if a brain scan was done?

Yes, 50 years ago after the first drink . . . but we're talking now. Years later.

It is a confusing disease even for specialists and science.

True alcoholism and drug addiction is a disease. Here is what it says on this site about addiction >
There are no underlying causes. Addiction is a disease. Looking for underlying causes is a waste of time and energy and usually ends up with some type of blame focused on the family or others . This “paralysis by analysis” is a common manipulation by the disease of addiction which distracts everyone from the important issue of the illness itself.

Realizing that addiction is a progressive disease will assist the family members to accept there loved as a “sick person” rather than a “bad person.”

WishingWell

We're talking about a brain disease with 4 different levels. Yes, it's much easier to quit in the first few levels of the disease. It becomes progressively more difficult to simply "choose" as the brain becomes physically damaged. Stage 3 is characterized as "loss of control". The loss of the ability to choose. The brain is diseased.

Brain - damage.

Many clinically depressed people on the verge of suicide, or people suffering from bipolar who are losing jobs and homes - refuse to take their medication. Is that the "choice" of a healthy brain? An anorexic woman dying at 70 lbs refuses to eat . . .

When a brain is damaged healthy decisions, such as "choice", are damaged as well.

Learn2Live

Wow. I found this series of videos by this author, Sam Vaknin, and every video I have watched relates to relationship with AXBF. Here are two that really stood out for me. If you can get past his accent and stick with it, there's lots of good stuff in these videos.

Spouses of Narcissists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-VP...eature=related

Move on from Narcissist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaVn...eature=related

ZiggyB

Speaking of narcissism, I found this link today which might be helpful to some of you:

Did The Narcissist Ever Really Love Me?

Confetti

ZiggyB.

Great link. Some info I needed to hear. Thanks

Learn2Live

Wow Ziggy! THANK YOU so very much! That has got to be the best explanation of my relationship with AXBF! I am copying it here.




Did The Narcissist Ever Really Love Me?

This is one of the most commonly asked questions from those who have given their hearts, and souls to a narcissist. At first the relationship is very intense and romantic and it seems perhaps you have finally found "the one."

I recently watched a movie where a character comically said "or you are still chasing after the elusive "one." Meaning we often spend our lives waiting for the one who will finally make everything right with our world. Initially it may seem the narcissistic lover is "the one." But after the honeymoon is over the tables turn. Why? Well because the honeymoon is over! And narcissists love the honeymoon.

In all healthy relationships there comes a time where the honeymoon must evolve into something real. This means it is time for real communication, dealing with issues, concerns and commitments. It means having the ability to work with a partner, to consider the needs of that partner, to let go of the need to be "right" in favor of having true communication, accountability and responsibility. If you have a concern in your relationship you should be able to take your concern to your partner and be heard. You should also be able to listen, really listen to the concerns of your partner. In a narcissistic relationship this doesn't happen.

The reason the narcissist loves the honeymoon is because he can be stuck in the Peter Pan, terminal boyhood stage where he doesn't have to be responsible or accountable. He doesn't want to deal with issues in the relationship. If any issues are brought up he will be quick to dump them back on you and walk away. He loves the romance, the attention, admiration, adoration, promise of ideal love and hope that he has found "the one" who will tolerate all his weirdness without question. When his beloved begins to question him, differ with him or make demands, his "weirdness" escalates. He resorts to his manipulation techniques to get you to stop bringing his issues to the forefront. And his greatest manipulation technique is to dump it all on you. It is your fault. You are too demanding! You don't accept him as he is!

The narcissist doesn't want to grow up and be accountable. He is entitled to constant attention and admiration without having to invest anything more than the initial time it took to woo you. Once you have been wooed you should be hooked in and he shouldn't have to invest so much anymore. He has groomed you to be a constant source of admiration, attention, sex, affection, and nurturing. The piece that is missing is that the narcissist doesn't seem to believe that he should reciprocate.

With men there is an unlimited supply of selfless women out there who believe in taking care of their man and catering to his needs without concern for their own. And so it is pretty easy to groom a woman to play this role. With female narcissists they want to be the queen and look for men who will completely adore and admire them, once again without any concern for their own needs. Men who had demanding or narcissistic Mother's might easily align with a woman like this and cater to her every need in order to keep her around.

Underneath it all the narcissist can't enter into a place of mature love. Their love is immature, self centered and needy. They are looking for unconditional love but are unwilling to give it. And so the question "did he ever really love me?" can be answered simply by saying "he loved you to the extent he was able. He never had the ability to move beyond the honeymoon and upgrade to mature love. He is stuck in "young" love which is intense, passionate and romantic while it lasts. For a time, you might be "the one" for the narcissist. But when you begin to have needs or demands from the relationship, or you are disagreeable, it will change. When you begin to question his behavior whether it be viewing porn, staying out late or ignoring you, he will be angry at you because he wants you to completely affirm and validate him, no matter what he does. He expects for you to tolerate his affairs, his porn, his sex addiction, his avoidance issues, and anything else he does. This is narcissism! Narcissism is self centered and immature. It doesn't consider you or your needs.

Often when you are cut off, abandoned, devalued and discarded, it is a punishment for your refusal to comply. And as victims of narcissism we often believe it is somehow our fault that he or she treated us with such contempt. We wrack our brains wondering what we did to deserve such cruel treatment. But it is and never has been about you. What you did is refuse to cater to his needs and affirm him unconditionally. But unless you want to completely give up yourself and be absorbed by the narcissist, it is unrealistic to play this role with him. Often we do, for quite a long time. We are conditioned to turn a blind eye, to take him back after he had an affair and not ask questions, and suffer through the cold spells and silent treatments. But eventually one of two things happens. Either the narcissist gets bored with you because you no longer challenge him, or you get fed up with his behavior and start making demands for yourself which may eventually result in your leaving.

You can't always know what is going on inside the tortured mind of the narcissist. The one thing you can know is that he or she is unable to truly give you what you want, need and deserve; a whole, healthy relationship. So whether you leave or the narcissist leaves, you are better off.

It is perfectly O.K. to love the narcissist, even after it is over. If your love was real then honor that and embrace it. This means you are able to love in a deep and honest way. Sometimes the narcissistic relationship shows us how deeply we can and do love. Playing with Peter Pan can be a magical experience, one that you don't forget. It can be intense, passionate, sexy, and romantic. But you are destined to live in never never land which means you will never have anything real or true. It is all only make believe.

I believe there is a part of the narcissist that does love those he gets involved with. At least some of them. He or she may also use relationships to get something he/she wants. The narcissist may marry for money, or prestige or power. A narcissist may get involved with you because you are eye candy and make him/her look good. But then, most people make choices based on what's in it for them. Most people are physically attracted to someone because they perceive that person as hot, or beautiful, or gorgeous. People with money, or power or prestige never have trouble finding a mate, because the mate is more attracted to the goodies, than the person. Many people are attracted to fixer uppers hoping they can rehabilitate them and make them the "perfect mate."

Love only goes as deep as we do, and frankly if your mate doesn't run very deep than neither will the love. If your mate hasn't taken the time to develop himself or herself than it's not likely going to change in the relationship. If you've spent your life embracing "personal growth" and your mate has never read a book on the topic, then you can bet that personal growth isn't high on his list of priorities.

Did the narcissist ever really love you? Perhaps he loved the idea of you. Perhaps he loved how you made him feel. Perhaps he loved the fantasy of what life with you could bring him. Perhaps he loved the idea that he has finally found someone who will love him unconditionally and ignore his shortcomings (which are a lot.) Perhaps he was taken by your beauty, or intelligence or wit. But he was never strong enough to go the next level. And ultimately that is what you wanted right? You wanted a real, mature, loving, caring, nurturing relationship that considered your needs. And you simply weren't going to get it from someone that shallow.

If you tell yourself that you loved him and he loved you to the best of his ability given what he had to work with, you can finally make peace with it all and let him go to be who and what he is....a narcissist.

Learn2Live

I have gone to that website Ziggy and this stands out for me:

Learn2Live

Found this article today and am astounded by how the content describes AXBF and relationship with him. Giving me strength today. Sharing this with others who have also been noticing similarities in the A in their lives. Bolding the things that describe AXBF and the relationship.

The Borderland of Narcissism and Sociopathy
In a prior post, I discussed some differences between the narcissist and sociopath, a focus I’d like to continue in this post. For convenience’s sake, I’m going to use “he” and “him” throughout, although we can agree that “she” and “her” could easily be substituted.

The narcissist, if I were to boil his style down to one sentence, is someone who demands that his sense of self(and self-importance) be propped-upon a continual basis. Without this support—in the form of validation, recognition, and experiences of idealization—the narcissist feels depleted, empty, depressed.

The narcissist struggles to define himself independently and sustainedly as significant and worthwhile. The fragility of his sense of self is no big news; it is how he manages his fragility, his insecurity, that is telling.

The narcissist, for instance, feels entitled to a sense of inner comfort and security. More specifically, he feels entitled to what he requires in order to experience an unbroken state of inner comfort.

But wait a second? Don’t we all feel somewhat entitled to what we need in order to feel secure and comfortable?

Most of us, after all, feel entitled to the air we breath that keeps us alive. You might feel entitled, when dehydrated, to a cold stream of water from your kitchen faucet? Imagine feeling an intense thirst, yet when you twist the faucet, no water comes out? The pipes are empty…everywhere in the house.

You are deeply thirsty, and yet the water you count on to salve your thirst is being withheld. In this circumstance, especially if your thirst is great, you might feel outraged? Incensed? Even panicked?

You might even feel furious enough to hurl curses and imprecations on the forces conspiring to frustrate your thirst!

Imagine the narcissist’s thirst as constant and deep—a thirst for things like recognition, appreciation, for validation of his importance,and special signifigance. When the narcissist’s thirst for recognition is unmet, it is no small matter—anymore than it would be a small matter to find a spigot unresponsive in the midst of your urgent thirst.

In other words, the frustration of his demand of recognition is a major disappointment, a major problem for the narcissist—a problem felt not merely as an inconvenience, but as a threat to his fundamental equilibrium, sense of security, and comfort.

In a certain sense, then, that the narcissist feels “entitled” doesn’t make him a narcissist. It is what he feels “entitled to” that is most relevant.

Specifically, it is his sense of entitlement to an undisturbed stream of others’ approval, admiration and recognition that most separates the narcissist from the non-narcissist.

But the narcissist demands more than others’ idealization; he also demands others to idealize. The narcissist needs to idealize others.

For instance, when he finally meets, yet again, the “perfect woman,” he puts her on a pedestal—i.e., he idealizes her. Idealizing her—putting her on a pedestal—makes for thrill and excitement (which, by the way, he misjudges again and again as fulfillment).

After all, he is tasting perfection. He must be pretty special to have the enviable attention of someone so perfectly, admirably beautiful. He looks and feels good thanks to the reflection of her perfection on himself.

One of many problems here is that idealized states are inherently temporary and unsustainable; they don’t hold up permanently; they are fraught all the time with dangers of collapse.

Thus, the narcissist can’t permanently hold his idealizations. And he finds their collapse, over and over again, discouraging and deeply disillusioning. But instead of recognizing the futility of his need, he will blame the formerly idealized object for failing to have remained as perfect, and perfectly satisfying, as he demanded.

The narcissist loses something urgent here, namely the key to his feeling of vitality. Inarticulately, he feels betrayed; and in his sense of betrayal, he feels angry, even enraged.

Enter his “contempt.” The underbelly of the narcissist’s idealizing is his contempt. The narcissist tends to vacillate between experiences of idealization and contempt. In either case (or “state”), others are regarded as objects—objects, we shall see, not quite in the sense that sociopaths regard others as objects.

For the narcissist, others have an obligation to maintain his peace of mind. In the narcissist’s world, it is on others, through their cooperation with his demands, to ensure his ongoing inner comfort and satisfaction. When meeting his demands, others are idealized; when disappointing him, they are devalued contemptuously.

What else does the narcissist demand? The narcissist on pretty much a constant basis demands various forms of reassurance. It may be reassurance of his attractiveness, superiority, special status in a girlfriend’s eyes (and history). He may seek reassurance of his virility, that he is still feared, respected, admired, idealized, and otherwise perceived as impressive.

For the narcissist, such reassurance, even when felt, proves always only temporarily satisfying, and is translated as something like, “I’m okay, for now. I’ve still got it. I’m still viable.”

In his pursuit of reassurance, the narcissist is a very controlling individual. His controlling tendencies arise from his desperation—his desperation, that is, for the reassurance he demands. And desperate people tend to be heedless of the boundaries of those who have what they want.

The narcissist, for instance, may grill his partner controllingly about her ex-boyfriends in order to establish (demand assurances of) his unique, special status with her. Or, he may text her during the day compulsively, in the guise of his interest in, and love, for her, when, in fact, it is not about his love or interest but rather about his demand to know that she is thinking about him that drives his invasive behavior.

He will rationalize his invasiveness as his thoughtfulness and love of her. And he will feel entitled to an immediately reassuring response, anything less than which will activate his anger/rage.

The narcissist’s legendary self-centeredness, to some extent, is a function of the fact that so much, if not all, of his energy is invested in resolving anxious questions about his present standing.

He is vigilantly afraid lest his present, fragilely, and externally supported status be upended, a development he struggles to tolerate. Consumed as he is with obviating this disaster, he has little energy left with which to be genuinely interested in others.

How about the sociopath? What’s hisdeal?

To begin with, the sociopath lacks the narcissist’s insatiable underlying neediness. Unlike the narcissist, the sociopath’s violating behaviors stem less from a deep insecurity than from his impulsive or calculated greed, and especially his basic view of others as objects, as tools, to be exploited for his entertainment, amusement and ongoing acquisitive agenda.

The sociopath is a more purely exploitative individual than the narcissist. For the narcissist, others are desperately needed, and demanded, as validators. Athough the narcissist will use and exploit others, he does so typically with the ulterior motive of reassuring himself, on some level, of his persisting viability.

For the sociopath, others are his potential “play-things,” their value a function of the gratification that can be extracted from them.

The less validating you are, the less worth you have for the narcissist.

The less exploitable you are, the less worth you have for the sociopath.

Said differently, the narcissist uses others as a means to establish (or reestablish) the sense, and view, of himself, as special, impressive, dominant, compelling, whereas the sociopath uses others more for the pure amusement of it; more for the sheer entertainment of seeing whathe can get away with (and how); and/or for the immediate satisfaction of his present tensions, itch, and/or greed.

The term “malignant narcissist” seems to me to describe the sociopath more accurately than the narcissist. This term has been used to describe megalomaniacal individuals whose grandiosity and sinister appetite for control (over others) better reflect, to my mind, psychopathic processes of exploitation.

The “malignant narcissist” is, to my mind, driven by the sociopath’s (or psychopath’s) pursuit of omnipotent control over those he seeks to exploit. He is a power-hungry, often charismatic, ruthless and exploitative personality whose grandiosity serves more psychopathic than classically narcissistic purposes.

Don’t misunderstand me: The malignant narcissist is someone whose most toxic narcissistic qualities have attained malignant status (hence the concept). In the end, however, he is as coldblooded, callous, exploitative and deviant a creature as the most dangerous sociopath.

Does it matter, finally, whether a cult figure like, say, Jim Jones, who led hundreds of his followers to mass suicide, was a “malignant narcissist” or psychopath? Not if you regard the terms, and destructiveness of the personalities, as essentially indistinguishable, as I do.

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

Learn2Live

Here’s a theme I think we can relate to: Your partner (a male in this example, strictly for convenience’s sake)—a narcissist, or perhaps sociopath—blames you for his misery, bad moods, bad decisions, frustrations, dissatisfactions, disappointments and underfulfillment.

From his perspective, if he cheats on you—or deceives and betrays you—you will have deserved it, because you will have been responsible for the discontent that necessitated his violating behaviors.

Remember he feels entitled to have what he wants; he deserves what he wants, when he wants it; and if he’s frustrated, it must be someone’s fault.

Someone must be blamed, and you, his partner, will be his odds-on choice to own his blame.

It’s amazing how often we accept, against our better instincts, the narcissistic/sociopathic partner’s insistence that we are responsible for his infinite emptiness.

We do so for many reasons, but the one I’d like to stress is this: If we don’t accept this responsibility, his blame, we seriously risk losing the relationship.

Ongoing relationships with abusive, contemptuous partners require just this kind of Faustian contract: To preserve the relationship, however desecrated it is, I will accept your blame. For the sake of not yet losing this relationship, I will continue to entertain, if not own, your constant assertion that there is something in me—something deficient and insufficient—that explains your mistreatment and disrespect of me.

To say it somewhat differently, so long as we’re not yet ready to jettison a destructive relationship, a narrative must be constructed to explain our decision to stay. The narrative, as I suggest, often goes something like this: I am to blame—I —for my partner’s debasing attitudes and behaviors. I must be to blame, otherwise I’d leave.

The narrative is rational, but false. It’s a false narrative (in the back of our minds, we may sense its falseness), but it’s the only narrative under the circumstances that can explain, and seemingly justify, our continued tolerance of our partner’s nonsense.

A couple I spent some time with recently (clinically) illustrated this point well. The husband, Harold, was one of the most transparent narcissistic personalities I’ve ever seen. He’d recently ended an affair with a colleague (justifying the affair as a function of his right to pursue the fulfillment his spouse, Julia, wasn’t supplying).

Interestingly, about eight weeks into their courtship, Harold began offering up undisguised, alarming displays of his narcissism in general and narcissistic rage specifically. Julia was highly disturbed by each of these displays. All left her thinking, “This isn’t right. I should end this thing now, before I get deeper in. He shouldn’t be treating me like this. I shouldn’t be tolerating this.” But while recognizing these alarming warnings, she was already too deeply invested in her vision of the relationship—and Harold—to end it.

A dozen years later, not much has changed. Julia has a beautiful child and, in Harold, a spouse who’s conformed entirely to his early, advanced billing—he is demanding, often hostile and passive-aggressive, easily and constantly disappointed, blaming (of her) for the emptiness that leaves him constantly wanting, and prone to secretiveness.

Julia caters to his moods and demands in order to avoid eliciting the ugliest manifestations of his hostility (whose emergence threatens everpresently to scare and traumatize her).

But it’s no secret how Julia, with her high intelligence and striking emotional maturity, continues to justify her decision to endure what’s been Harold’s 12-year assault on her emotional safety and dignity.

She has owned the blame for his discontent, disappointments, and acting-out.

Just as soon as she’s ready to disown this falsely ascribed (and tacitly accepted) responsibility, she’ll find herself without a reason to accept the conditions of—and indignities associated with—Harold’s personality disorder.

At that point, the leverage will be hers—Harold will either have to shape up (unlikely), or she’ll be genuinely prepared to ship him out.

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2008 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

Learn2Live

Differentiating narcissists and psychopaths
Monday, 21 January 2008 @ 10:53am • My Weblog

Editor’s note: This article was submitted by Steve Becker, LCSW, CH.T, who has a private psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and clinical consulting practice in New Jersey, USA. For more information, visit his website, powercommunicating.com.

We can begin by noting something that both narcissists and psychopaths share: a tendency to regard others as objects more than persons. Immediately this raises concerns: you don’t have to empathize with objects; objects don’t have feelings worth recognizing. You can toy with objects; manipulate and exploit them for your own gratification, with a paucity of guilt.

Welcome to the world of the narcissist and psychopath. Theirs is a mindset of immediate, demanded gratification, with a view of others as expected—indeed existing—to serve their agendas. Frustrate their agendas, and you can expect repercussions, ranging from the disruptive to ruinous.

Distinct explanations for their actions

The behaviors of narcissists and psychopaths can look very similar in their staggering disregard and abuse of others. Distinctions arise, however, in the explanation of their actions. The narcissist will crave recognition and validation. He will demand that others notice and appreciate his special qualities; his special qualities make his needs special, which leaves him feeling entitled to their satisfaction. He demands all this as if his inner self is at stake, and it is. Disappointment leaves him feeling unappreciated, neglected. Anger and rage then surface in aggressive and passive-aggressive displays, often in proportion to the hurt and vulnerability he can’t own.

The psychopath is less obsessed than the narcissist with validation. Indeed, his inner world seems to lack much of anything to validate: it is barren, with nothing in it that would even be responsive to validation. An emotional cipher, the psychopath’s exploitation of others is more predatory than the narcissist’s. For the psychopath, who may be paranoid, the world is something like a gigantic hunt, populated by personified-objects to be mined to his advantage.

Example: narcissists and psychopaths as cheaters

As an example, let’s take a hypothetical narcissist and psychopath: Both males (females can be narcissists and psychopaths), both married, with families; and both compulsively conducting extra-marital affairs. Both have managed to avoid exposure principally due to the ease and remarkable skill with which they routinely lie and dissemble. They are equally persuasive in declaiming their fidelity to their wives as they are at contriving their unmarried status to their mistresses. Nevertheless, from time to time, their wives may approach them with uneasy suspicions, to which they’ll respond not with accountability, but as with outrage to have to deign to address their wives’ anxieties. They will impugn their wives for raising doubts about them, leaving the latter feeling defensive, guilty, and perhaps ashamed.

Narcissist is insecure

To this point, there is little on the surface to distinguish them. But going deeper, we discover that our narcissist is actually terribly insecure and needy. For him, having affairs validates his masculinity. His seductive abilities reassure him of his manhood. If he can no longer seduce and sleep with women, he is nothing; he has “lost it.” Feeling his nothingness/worthlessness, he grows depressed, despairing. He might even feel like killing himself. To salvage his collapsing self-image, he needs an infusion of reassurance, sought in a new affair. In the narcissist’s world, the more his psychic welfare is threatened, the more hers is disposable.

The narcissist will rationalize his actions with his greatest defenses—blame and contempt: My wife has been nasty to me for a long time, and doesn’t remotely appreciate me anymore. She’s lucky all I do is cheat; I could leave her instead, with nothing. The fact that I’ve stayed is almost charitable. And these women I cheat with…sure, they all think I’m unmarried, and you know what, I basically am.

Our narcissist, as you see, has a dim notion of ethics; but his ethics are corrupted by alarming rationalizations. He is expert at furnishing these rationalizations seamlessly, leaving him as if with the untroubled conscience of the psychopath.

Psychopath plays a game

Our psychopath, meanwhile, has no ethics, and thus no need for rationalizations. He has affairs because he wants to. Life, for him, is a game. The game is about figuring out how to get what he wants now, by whatever stratagems necessary. And it’s a game without rules. Without rules, there is no violation, no exploitation; and even if there is, it’s part of the game. So our psychopath makes up the rules as he goes along, duping this individual and that, lying like a shameless child as he improvises his way in and out of his schemes, sometimes smoothly, sometimes not—but always heedless of, and absolutely indifferent to, the damage he causes.

The psychopath will sit back, reflecting on his infidelities, and laughing, think, “I’ve still got it.” He will mean, “I’ve still got the ability to maneuver these women like a puppeteer.” This will amuse him. The narcissist will sit back, and likewise think, “I’ve still got it.” But he will mean, “I’m still attractive. Women still find me irresistible. I’m okay, for now.”

Commonly, the psychopath is upheld as the incarnation of the murderous bogeyman. While it’s true that many cold-blooded killers are psychopaths, most psychopaths are not killers. The majority of psychopaths would find a messy murder too inconvenient and personally unpleasant a task to assume. This—the personal inconvenience and unpleasantness, not empathy for the slaughtered victim—explains why a great many more psychopaths than not, with chilling non-compunction, are more likely to target your life’s savings than butcher you, and dispose of your remains in several industrial-strength Hefty bags.

This doesn’t make the non-murderous psychopath “less psychopathic,” or “more sensitive” than the murderous psychopath; it merely reflects the calculus psychopaths apply in their decision-making: how can I get, or take what I want, for maximum instant gain, at minimum personal inconvenience?

Learn2Live

Thursday, 5 June 2008 @ 9:33am • My Weblog

You really need to admire yourself for surviving an exploitative relationship. I say this very seriously, not flippantly. We all, of course, hope to minimize our involvement with exploitative individuals. But in the course of life, as we know, that’s not always possible. It is vital, therefore, if you’ve been victimized by and/or are recovering from involvement with an exploiter, to fully, genuinely appreciate (and remind yourself constantly) that you are indeed strong, impressively strong, because only the strong survive exploitation.

Many clients with whom I work (really, most people, I think) tend to see personal strength and insecurity; personal strength and low self-esteem, as incompatible. They balk at the idea that you can be a very strong person and insecure at the same time; that you can be a very strong person even with low self-esteem. For instance, when someone violates you (especially chronically) and you don’t defend yourself properly, the tendency is to attribute your failure at self-protection to “personal weakness.” The thought is something like, “If I was a strong person, I wouldn’t have let that abuse occur. I’d have asserted myself, defended myself, drawn the line.”

But it’s not personal weakness that explains the failure to protect your boundaries; it’s more often a lack of clarity, in knowing precisely what your boundaries are, and precisely what constitutes an unacceptable violation of them. Victims of sustained exploitation/abuse aren’t personally weak, quite the contrary. My experience has affirmed again and again how remarkably strong and resourceful most of them are. What they lack, however, often is a clear, secure sense of their boundaries; this insecurity of boundaries leaves them vulnerable to compromising themselves. After all, you can’t assert and/or protect your boundaries unless and until you’ve established them very clearly and securely (in your mind).

This explains what for many can seem so confusing and dichotomous: how a victim of sustained exploitation/abuse can, on the one hand, lobby so effectively for others’ interests, while, with respect to her/his own, appear stuck in circumstances he or she would counsel anyone else to reject and escape.

But I restate: You can’t protect your interests if they aren’t, in the first place, clearly defined. And you can’t defend your boundaries if, on any level, you’re uncertain, or ambivalent about, what they are. This disadvantaged position helps explain how an otherwise strong, resourceful adult can find her/himself tolerating and enduring the meanness and nonsense of a defective partner.

When my clients who have been in exploitative relationships discover confidently their boundaries, they often feel sad, on one hand, not to have done so sooner; but thrilled on the other to find themselves, as if miraculously, just as skilled at protecting their own interests as they’ve always been at protecting others’.

It’s a kind of bittersweet discovery. The bitter part, if grieved properly, is usually short-lived; the sweet aspect is long-lasting.

ZiggyB

[QUOTE=Learn2Live;3595407]Wow Ziggy! THANK YOU so very much! That has got to be the best explanation of my relationship with AXBF! I am copying it here.

You're welcome... after I read that I was pretty stunned at the similarities in that article and what my relationship was like. I was cruelly discarded and devalued when I refused to be what he needed me to be, which was a Barbie doll who was always available for fluffing up his ego, a 1950's housewife concerned with tidiness and his dinner, a sex toy who was always available, and a doormat who put up with his drinking and kooky behavior. I don't think he needed a real woman, he needed a blow up doll. Only that wouldn't suffice either, because he wouldn't be happy unless he was making the doll cry and feel bad about herself.

Learn2Live

You must not disappoint me.

You must not inconvenience me.

You must recognize all of my expectations as reasonable.

You must, at all times, accommodate me.

You must recognize my “special needs” (special in an important, not disabled, sense); and must always satisfy them.

You must be glad for my good moods, and understand and tolerate my bad, nasty ones.

You must see my anger, rage and contempt as always arising for justifiable reasons.

You must make tireless efforts to placate me when you’ve upset me.

You must appreciate that my comfort supercedes yours and everyone else’s.

You must find what interests me, interesting; and you must convey your interest.

You willingly assume responsibility for my happiness, and blame for my discontent.

You must never oppose or defy me.

You must always know what I want without my having to ask; and you must always communicate what you want without my having to ask.

You must recognize that double-standards are unacceptable, except when they’re mine (in which case they’re not double-standards, just differently applied standards).

You must stop shoving the word “reciprocity” in my face. Reciprocity means that both of us do what I want and need.

You appreciate at all times my importance and significance, or I’ll find someone who will.

You recognize that, even though we’re both “tired” at the end of the day, my fatigue is ten times more valid than yours, and so you cut me ten times more slack than I cut you.

You worry about your accountability to me, and I’ll worry about my accountability to God.

You find that everything I say makes sense (and therefore brooks no opposition).

You appreciate that your value to me is proportionate to how good you make me look, and feel.

You somehow sustain yourself as an alluring sexual object to me, or I license myself to satisfy that demand elsewhere.

You may have noticed that what underlies all of these commandments is an inflated sense of entitlement (the attitude at the heart of narcissism). I look forward to your feedback and to your adding creatively, and from your own insights, to my assuredly uncomprehensive list.

(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

Learn2Live

Pathologically self-centered individuals, such as sociopaths or narcissists, often project a level of self-confidence that is pathlogically tremendous. This can be a problem for others who, unlike the sociopath, will be prone to empathy and self-reflection, along with which come self-doubt and hence fluctuating, less dependable levels of confidence.

But the pathologically self-centered individual is often seemingly immune to self-doubt and can thus seem implacably, impressively confident. Why?

The answer is suprisingly simple: When your interest in others is principally, if not entirely, about what you can get, or take, from them; when you lack the capacity for, and/or inclination to, genuine, thoughtful self-reflection; and when the meaning, or purpose, of life is fundamentally reduced to the expectation, and pursuit, of continual gratification, you have a prescription not only for pathological self-centeredness, but its frequent concomitant—pathological self-confidence.

Think about it: for such an individual, it is mostly, and sometimes only, about what he wants. And if he knows what he wants, such an individual will feel entitled to it. And his sense of entitlement becomes self-validating—self-validating, that is, of whatever argument, rationalization, or manipulation brings him closer to his demand.

In other words, the pathologically self-centered individual has something very powerful in his favor—conviction. His is the conviction of his entitlement, of his right to have what he wants—whether it’s agreement, an apology, special attention, cooperation, sex, a favor, forgiveness, you name it.

And he wields his sense of conviction powerfully and persuasively—all the moreso if he’s also articulate and glib.

This explains how a sociopath can look you in the eye and blame you for something—even his victimization of you—and yet you struggle to fully disbelieve him. As I just noted, if he is intelligent and glib, he is in an even better position to erode your sense of reality. He can construct positions, however absurd and even confirming of his sociopathic orientation, that nevertheless have just enough superficial plausability to arrest your attention.

Once you’ve been disarmed, even slightly, his impregnably confident assertions, stemming from his pathological self-centeredness, can have a brainwashing influence.

You wonder if you’re not crazy? The “gaslighting effect” is in full throttle. It is disorienting, literally, to have someone present even a ridiculous proposition, demand, or accusation with unwavering confidence and certitude. And the disorienting effect is magnified exponentially when the assertion is simultaneously packaged in superficially intelligent, coherent, “rational”-sounding language. Confidence in one’s sense of reality can wane, and fail, under this combination assault.

This can explain why sometimes extremely intelligent, thoughtful and self-respecting individuals can actually be at greater risk of accepting and tolerating abuse. It can be a case of the exploiter’s pathologically inflated confidence overwhelming the more self-questioning, self-doubting individual’s reality.

(My use of “he” in this article was for convenience’s sake, and not to suggest that females are not capable of the behaviors described. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)

ZiggyB

L2L - thanks for the posts. All the signs are there, I only wish I had seem them sooner.

I am going to try and stop thinking about this and from now on, I will view him as a person with some serious problems, I need to leave it in the past and focus on what I need to do to repair my self-esteem and have a happy future.

Buffalo66

Hi, I just wanted to chime in and say whoever said it doesn't matter, the results are the same is right. It's just like if you are being abused, and you find out the person is mentally ill, that doesn't really mean they stop abusing you, and it doesnt mean your abuse is not real.

Alcoholics are addicts, and for more than most of them, in my experience it is a symptom of greater disorder. They have the adiction gene, and I do believe they have a disease in coping with the addiction, but choosing to use alcohol for many is choosing to self medicate deeper discomfort: PTSD, Personality disorders, etc. JMHO

Learn2Live,
I have been directing some people to this link. It is asite for people who deal with personality disordered people. You may find, if you look around on this site some infprmation that actually blows your mind. It is labeled BPDfamily, which refers to Borderline personality disorder, but deals also with NPD, which is Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This is different from normal narcissistic traits. This is a disorder. It can be co existing or underlying BPD, and many BPDs get involved with NPDs, as do many Codependents. Go to the main page and search NPD for links, etc.

I spend more time over there these days, due to the fact that my exH got sober and thats when his underlying issues really got a foothold in him.

It is called bpdfamily.com. Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners

PS: those Narcissists comandments are spot on

Learn2Live

I am posting this primarily for ZiggyB but also anyone who thinks they may have been, or are currently, involved with a narcissist. Because I don't think I had ever been involved with one before and I tell you: I have been in and gotten over many relationships with many weirdos over the last 20 or so years, and I've practically become an expert (LOL) on methods for extricating yourself from relationships, but this one takes the cake. The level and severity of shock, confusion, and obsession that I have experienced trying to break free of this person and this relationship has been debilitating and baffling. It goes far beyond coming to the realization that my expectations may have been too high, that I have codependent tendencies, that I grieve the loss of a dream, or that this person is an alcoholic drug addict.

I've now read 5 books on narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder, and combed the internet for information that will set me free. I just received the book, "Narcissistic Lovers, How to Cope, Recover, and Move On," by Zayn and Dibble, yesterday and am on Chapter 2. So far, this is the BEST source of information for me because it explains in laymen's terms, the relationship I have been in for the last couple of years. And it explains why all of my previous understanding and thinking about relationships simply do not help me in this situation. So, this is my long-winded way of telling folks, if you think you are or were involved with a person who might have NPD, get this book. It is truly helping me make strides in healing my heart and moving on with my life.

Learn2Live

PS Lots of sources I've read seem to agree that all Narcissists (that is, people with the actual disorder) are not alcoholics, but that all alcoholics are narcissistic (the personal character trait). Something to think about in your dealings and your feelings with and about the alcoholic in your life.