AlwaysGrowing

Epona
The affairs are NOT your fault. He took the action all by himself. At some point a line needs to be drawn. I know some marriages can be saved after events like affairs, but alcoholics are not IMO fitting in that area. Rational thinking left LONG time ago.. I've been in your shoes and hung in there and after a 2nd filed for divorce.
I thought I failed but it takes 2 and 2 willing to go to any lengths. I can tell you it is 1000% better after a very long emotional road of the divorce. Draw a line and hold yourself to it.
God Bless
AG

Tuffgirl

I understand trying to understand the alcoholic brain. Spent many months reading anything and everything I could get my hands on. It was empowering to learn so much about it. But the one thing that helped me get past it all the most was the simple sentence: I am not responsible for his behavior in any way, shape, or form.

Sure, we can influence others. We can plant seeds of ideas and thoughts. But do we have control over what others choose to do or say? Nope.

Do we "cause" others to behave badly? To make poor choices and exercise bad judgement? Nope.

We are only responsible for how we think, act, behave, etc. Just little ole me here. That's all I can control.

Alcoholics tend to be very self centered (and I say that based on everything I have read and heard in AA meetings). Those in recovery know it and are working to change that perspective. But it takes time and a lot of introspection, and many don't succeed at recovery, not the first time, or maybe ever.

I venture to guess your husband missed the chemicals - the effects on the brain, the good feelings that come with alcohol, and turned instead to the chemical effects of an illicit affair. It probably did help him in the moment, and then made him feel just as crappy the next day as a hang-over did. From what I read and hear, this is not an uncommon tactic to take.

I hope he finds a solid program to engage in, or he is at a high probability for relapse. Maybe instead of focusing on the affair itself, try to encourage that. Outside help.

Take good care,
~T

theuncertainty

Oh, Epona, please don't think this at all. We've all been in similar situations - where any one looking in might be thinking "OMG. WTF. Why would you put up with that?!" And I think most of us have been in the spot to think that about ourselves. I know I have.

The decision to stay is rarely simple. And the decision and work to forgive never is. Brings to mind: "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple." by Oscar Wilde, I think.

(Oh, and thank you for the vote of confidence. I'm getting there.)

Edit to add: Oh! I almost forgot: I found the book Under the Influence by Milam and Ketcham to be very helpful in understanding a bit how alcohol affects an alcoholic.

Epona

Our 20 anniversary is coming up in a few weeks and he wants to go away together....
even talking about renewing our vows in the future!! Not to worry, all, I told him I couldn't predict how I would feel in a few weeks, much less even think about renewing our vows, and that there is no quick fix for this mess.

Epona

Phew-wish I could wake up in the morning and not have this heart pounding palm sweating anxiety, feeling like a weight on my chest. Doing deep breathing, showering, etc helps some but it comes and goes during the day....I'm having a hard time at work, I have a mentally demanding job that involves helping other people solve their problems, feeling like a fraud and a shell of myself...

silkspin

It's incredible how much you must cope with finding out about the affair, and yet, despite all you must process right now, you are focussing on him and how he may react after he cheated on you. Not only that, while you're worrying about his suicidal thoughts (because he cheated and now he's worried you'll leave him????) and trying to cope with this news after many years of marriage, he starts talking about trips and renewing vows? Sounds like a case of being found out and back-pedalling as hard as he possibly can in order not to rock his boat of his home and wife. Why else would he tell you everything someone would want to hear from a loving spouse (i want to take you away and renew our vows) especially if they are on the brink of doing the exact opposite. Not even a moment for you to get over an affair?

When I was younger I got into a 6 year, tumultuous relationship with an A personality type. After telling me he wanted to marry me, he went away on a trip and 'ran into' a childhood sweetheart. He returned and told me he was leaving me and going to marry her instead. Shell-shocked, I was in a fog for a few weeks. We were living together at the time, and after this news sunk in, he 'became' so concerned for me and my coping with the breakup, getting me to eat, hugging me and trying to explain he was following his heart....slowly unbuttoning my blouse.....and I started falling for it because I didn't want this situation to be true. And then something inside me screamed that this just wasn't right! I asked what he wanted of me, sarcastically - you want your new girlfriend but while you're not with her, to continue sleeping with me? And to my utter amazement, after a 6 year relationship, he said yes. Well that was the breaking point for me. Point is, he wanted what he wanted, and manipulated me like a pawn because he knew I loved him and I was vulnerable and wanted to still be with him. He preyed on me at such a low point.

I'm not saying this is your situation but his behaviour doesn't truly seem remorseful - more like acting remorseful because he's trying to contain the damage. Please focus on what you need right now and not him. If that means for him to leave, then that's what you need. If he's suicidal truly then call the police, but don't let yourself get lost in his needs which he continues to selfishly pile on you at this point. Ask yourself why he didn't take you on a trip and renew your vows before this all happened....

Florence

Absolutely not! We're all in a state of "figuring things out".

This was the climate in my house. There's a narrative that "it takes two" and "there are two sides to every story" that the A capitalizes on to keep you in the hostage situation. We get bogged down in the tiny details -- that angry look on your face has consequences! why are you always so short with me! -- when the big picture is that a non-alcoholic marriage can survive and negotiate some of these smaller disagreements.

A story: I remember after passively suggesting that we have a conversation about setting a budget 800 times before we finally got down to brass tacks. When I made the AH sit down and crunch the numbers with me, it led to his suicide attempt. He literally got up from the table where we were drawing up the budget, walked out to the garage, and tried to hang himself. I freaked out, and the next several weeks were dedicated to the whole family coming together to nursemaid fragile ol' AH out of any further suicide attempts.

The truth is, it wasn't a real suicide attempt, it was his alcoholic way of threatening me, of drawing the line in the sand and refusing to allow me to point out that he wasn't contributing financially, spending too much on booze, and that the family needed him to contribute more to survive. He self-harmed (it was very dramatic), and I, out of "necessity" (because he was a delicate orchid), picked up the pieces and figured out how to make ends meet without him, and nearly drove myself into a nervous breakdown doing so.

Point being that in my experience, as I've known two others who succeeded in killed themselves, a suicide attempt for an active alcoholic is usually one of two things. First, it can be a desperate move to end the pain and shame and sadness. It's absolutely awful. Or second, it's a way of upping the ante for the A's friends and family, and holding them hostage to the A's addiction. Either way, us friends and family are bystanders. What we do or don't do to mitigate their alcoholism is kind of besides the point to the active alcoholic.

kiki5711

"selective memory"

I know a few people in my family that have that.

Everyone remembers the "same event" and come up with different interpretations of it.

Mostly to their favor.

Epona

At this point I am certain he has Borderline Personality Disorder. He has been taking Effexor for a few years for depression. He meets 7 of 9 criteria for BPD

lillamy

English Garden, I love the concise way you put this:
Unless you address the alcoholism, anything else you do to "fix" your marriage is just like putting lipstick on a sow. It's still a pig. Just with lipstick on it.

Epona

Lillamy, that is why I am looking at ALL the pieces,including dual diagnosis. I'm the type of person that likes to have all the information so I know what I am dealing with. And then decide what I can and can't handle or live with...

And I also wonder if he is on the right med. He wanted to forgo the Effexor at one time and after beginning to taper down, he basically became the Incredible Hulk (rage, anger, barely controlled). Needless to say,I could not handle that! So, back on the med for him

Tuffgirl

Alcoholism can mimic many "mental illnesses", which is why it tends to be lumped in the mental illness category. It's also a depressant that counter effects medications taken for other mental illnesses.

He might be a completely different person when sober for a few years and working on his issues.

lillamy

Epona, Effexor is a documented b**ch to get off.

And I apologize if I came across as wagging a finger in your face -- EG's quote just hit me smack in the solar plexus because somewhere (I left my AXH 2 years ago), even though I know I made the right decision and I don't regret it, there is a part of me that echoes what he said after I left -- that I had a duty and an obligation to do all those things, counseling and therapy and working on becoming a better wife so that we could still be together.

So my WOW that's a great quote was more a realization for myself -- that, really, even if I HAD done all of those things, it wouldn't have helped as long as his addiction and my codependency went unaddressed. So it was sort of a relief for me to see that quote. Not that I didn't know it already, but sometimes, truths that you are vaguely aware of hits you in the face when someone else states them for you.

I'm very much like you -- I want to consider all the parts and all the options and see everything from every side. I totally get that. I think for me, I got so wrapped up in figuring out what was wrong with him and how I could help him that I didn't even really notice that I was miserable for a very, very long time. I hope you can get the detachment and distance that you care for yourself first.

kiki5711

Effexor is not bad, but it will NOT work if you drink with it. It is hard to get off it, but that's with every medication.

Epona

Lillamy-appreciate your sensitivity. This might sound crass-but, I am exploring how messed up he might really be, to help ME!! His betrayal has been like being zapped with a wake-up call cattle prod! MOO! Ouch that hurt wtf, who are you, who am I kind of thing! I am only four weeks out from learning of the affair.

As far as his issues and recovery, that is really up to him. It seems like, between his "stuff", the destruction of trust, my hurt, that the cards are not stacked in favor of a happy marriage w him. He got a lot worse when he got laid off in 08, and I thought it was my duty as his wife to stand by him in his time of trouble, apparently this entailed outtingup w his emotional abuse, as well.
. He has been back at work over a year and not drinking almost a year, then a few months ago met someone. Egads-how stupid can I be!

Impurrfect

(((Epona))) - you are not stupid. I not only have THREE XABFs (ex addict/alcoholic bf's), I turned to drugs after about 20 years with the first one. Went from being an RN to prostituting myself for crack.

I got clean, didn't work recovery. Relapsed, ended up back with XABF#3, and realized I was done...with the drugs, with him. I couldn't trust him and I didn't care if he had 5 years in recovery, I'd still be unable to trust him. That's just me..he had a long, long history of addiction.

Oh, and when I was with XABF#1? *I* was the one who threatened suicide and made some half-ass attempts at it 3 or 4 times...I wanted his full attention.

I know it's not always so cut and dry, heck it took me 25 years to get to that point, but for me? I know no relationship has guarantees. I've not even really ventured into the relationship arena, much, and I've got 5 years in recovery. I learned what I don't want - someone who I think completes me. What I do want? Someone who complements my life.

Hugs and prayers,

Amy

EnglishGarden

Epona,

My therapist told me that when he has to counsel someone with BPD that he has to call one of his colleagues afterward. Because his mind is so messed up from being in session with the Borderline, he needs someone else to help him detox from the invasion of his unconscious.

(We talked about BPD because I think my RAexbf's ex-wife may be a BPD. I wanted to know what that meant for me if I entered into that family system.)

He said that Borderlines affect our deep unconscious, and their chaos becomes our chaos.

I was in no way prepared, at the time, for what a vindictive BPD ex-wife of my boyfriend might do to me. I had never even heard of BPD. My therapist gave me a couple books on Borderlines to show me. And he told me that--in my naivete-- entering that family system, I would have been the canary in the coal mine. (The one who drops dead from the poison in the air).

Epona, stick with SR, with anyone in your life who is sane, because you need as much sanity around you as possible. Keep posting. Don't get consumed by his chaos. Whether it is from untreated alcoholism, BPD, pathological narcissism, or any other of the crazies.

You are smack in the middle of the labyrinth. You need to hold to the rope while we, and any sane others in your life, help you walk your way out.

Epona

I think he is noticing my distance the past few days as I have been "waking up." He keeps asking if I m ok-my answer is NO-you used me up and then discarded me like a dixie cup. He says he always loved me, but basically he wanted his cake and eat it too. I told him yesterday that it's pretty obvious that he made a choice to step out rather than do anything to improve things and that it was all about him above all else, that hedid not have any respect for me. No wonder-I have been his doormat, more like a mother the last few years, esp. Ugh.

The more I look back, the more I can see it's all about him. He always has some kind of drama that requires attention. And yet-in Fall of 09, I had female surgery that did not go well, almost bled to death. He did come to the hosp when I went in-but afterward I was in the hosp days longer than planned b/c I had to get a lot of blood. Never brought me flowers or anything. It sounds petty now-but I recall being hurt by that. When they made me walk up and down the hall I could see into all the other womens rooms. They all had flowers,ballons-my room was starkly empty. I tried totell myself it was not important, but-I came close to death!

English Garden-the image you paint re the labyrinth and the rope is apt-thank you and everyone for your support. This is the sanest place I have to go right now.

Hollyanne

Epona,
This is my first post since coming back on here a couple of months ago.
I have to comment!

This made me very sad. It is huge. This was a while ago. I honestly think that this alone somes up your whole relationship for you.
This is a failure on his part to provide comfort to you.
It is so simple, no thinking needed, no mystery.
Buy flowers, and visit.
He failed. It does not get any simpler than that.
Anyone in a marriage can expect that simple gesture.
I am aware that a lot of men are "bad" when it comes to hospitals, but even if that was the case, he could send flowers and a note.
OK, rant over.
"Better your own company, than bad company."
Anne

mayalewiston

Epona,

I am so sorry you are going through this. I left my AH one week ago after more lies and I found out about cheating a few weeks ago (which he fails to address). We have only been married for 9 months - he didn't come to me with this info - I of course caught him like I do with everything else. In our entire 6 years of being together, he has NEVER come to me with anything - ALWAYS have to catch him / have evidence for him to fess up to anything. While this isn't a direct clinical diagnosis, my friend who is a board certified neurologist is nearly positive not only is he an A, but has antisocial personality disorder - which is very similar to BDP. Mine had a very traumatic childhood - father is a sociopath whom he does not speak to, I think his mother is an A - she was never there for him, etc... Unfortunately, I'm sure he will never get a real diagnosis as the only time he goes to see a therapist or psychologist is when he is trying to win me back and appease me, and when he does, he just lies to them, and then never goes back. My AH is starting an outpatient treatment plan (supposedly) on Monday, but if he is not ready, I actually wish he wouldn't waste our $$ as bad as that sounds. Just yesterday he told me that during his consultation for this place, they spoke of triggers... and he has realized that I am a trigger and he only drinks a lot when we are fighting, etc... I of course reminded him of the 99 times he has drank in just the past couple of months that had nothing to do with me, and he of course had nothing to say about that... Unfortunately, in speaking to my friend, I don't think the things that normal/rational people like you and I need out of a relationship will be something they are EVER capable of, even if they go through recovery. It will improve, but I don't know that we will ever get back what we are putting in -- and for me personally, I'm having a hard time accepting that is good enough.

Hugs to you!! Dealing with personality disorders ON TOP of this chaos makes ME feel like I have a disorder!