Epona

"He thought because it meant nothing to him, it was supposed to mean nothing to me also. I was just supposed to return to my role of wife and mother without a worry in the world."

Our kids are grown, but otherwise this fits. I don't know what to do right now-except detach. I can't take anymore drama-I have a headache this am so bad it is making me nauseous. I think I will be calling in sick today and going to bed.

Epona

This is hard, hard stuff and I am over two years out from the affair discovery and coming up on two years when I found out about them being back in touch. I don't tell you that to dishearten you, but to say that sometimes your posts ring to me a little concern that you don't have it more "figured out."

LR-what do you mean by that?

Marie-Thank you for sharing your story

wicked

Epona,
I think this could be it, if you absorb and believe what he says.
Other than playing the "role" of wife and mother, do you share the work on working on the marriage. Being able to come together and pull that horse cart together over the bumps makes a marriage, a partnership for life.

You are supposed to suffer the pain, betrayal and agony of cheating, but he is not willing to even hear what you have to say about it. Yes, it is all about him, and when you really believe that, understand that you are not worth listening to in marriage counseling, maybe then it will be easier to make a decision.

You are there to tolerate abuse, support his ODs, take time from work, and forgive his trespasses. Because to him that is what a "wife" does.

My ex had an affair, and we went to counseling. When we got to the part about the damage he had done to me emotionally, how he might have to do some work to gain my trust back, he was the one who exited the room.
I was not worth working for either. I was not drinking anymore, so the usual BS was not making a dent. I figured out then I was a placeholder for "wife".
Not a real woman, working daily, with coworkers who saw him at the club with his latest "friend". I was sober and not attracted to the stench of an alcoholic wanting sex, so he felt it was his right to cheat. Never used that word though.
No respect, no honor, no fidelity, no love. Just a warm body who took care of the household chores.

If he is unwilling to listen to your anger, then what is left? You go back to square one and learn to live with it. I hope you do not do that, you deserve a good life, a happy life. You can have that.

I wish you clarity Epona.

:ghug3

Beth

Epona

I should say that this came about when I said I wanted to retrieve all the deleted texts between him and the OW. He claims there is nothing romantic or sexy on there, just that the whole thing of having a "secret friend" was inappropriate and that just reading the texts will upset me and he does not want me to hurt anymore than I already do, does not want to face my pain and anger after I read through the close to 3k in texts.

He claims there was nothing other than them mirroring to each other how much they had in common, other everyday things like how our farm animals are, and yes him whining about how miserable he was to her. No I love you or want you's, etc. I told him I am not a fool!

I want so badly to believe him (don't yell at me), I want to verify what he is saying. ANd yes, just printing out the phone records back in Feb was very disturbing and upsetting-but I am over the intial discovery phase now and want to verify what was going back and forth. This would help me in my decision making process. Call me crazy.

I spoke to a P.I today re data recovery from AH's cellphone. I know someone is going to tell me I am wasting my time. Of course it has crossed my mind that he "doth protest too much"...

dollydo

You are obsessed with verifying what you already know, why...I have no clue...trust your gut.

When it's over....it's over...no verifying of anything is going to change a thing.

I haven't reread all your posts, do you work, do you have any kind of a life of your own? Not totally enmeshed in his. You seem to have alot of time on your hands...ie....mind.

Epona

Dollydo-please do not pass judgement, ie, I have no life when you clearly state you don't know if I work. Yes, I have a fulltime job and a farm I take care of. I haven't been on this forum for 7 years and have not posted almost 5k times, so....

The MC herself stated that the volume of the texts is not as important as the content and told me she thinks I need to get them.

Anvilhead-I have no rights? No right to know the truth? I disagree.

Sorry guys, I am in no mood to be messed with tonight.

LifeRecovery

Epona-

I might have been projecting, but I wanted to have it all figured out at your stage of the game. Was I going to stay or go? Would he shape up and make this better? If he showed me what I asked it meant he was in the relationship. I had a lot of cause and effect type things in mind at this stage.

What I was really asking was when would this get better for me? However my well-being was still dependent and wrapped up in him, it was all dependent on him being a certain way.

I was still in shock too and wanted to believe all of the "I don't remembers" that I heard as truth. In part some of them are true but at that stage of recovery I learned later often the "protection" they are offering their partner is really protecting the affair.

I mean this gently, but I was in the "initial" phase for close to a year. I don't remember most of 2010 and the beginning of 2011 at this time. 2012 has been easier and harder in different ways. Easier because I have a lot more recovery in place, harder because denial is gone and this stuff hurts.

I agree with finding out whatever you can about what is important to you, but I thought it would give me closure. It did give me more information, but I am never going to be able to put all the puzzle pieces together about it because that was not something he was interested in.

This is kind of a strange question but are you posting in recovery forums for affairs? The reason I ask is that I found this one safer (though I was dealing with both addiction and affair issues also). I know many have dealt with both issues here too, but the focus tends to be on substance addiction....and as a result sometimes things get confusing to me when it is so affair specific ESH being shared. Are you getting support around his substance use history and the dynamics that were set up with that. I can't remember and for me the healing for both came hand in hand.

wicked

It feels to me like you are "messing with" me tonight.
I gave you what I thought was the best of what I learned from my ex's affair, that he used me as a person and never had any respect for me.
That was painful, but I thought it would be helpful.
Now, we are into that childish BS "oh I have a life, you don't have a life"
Your marriage counselor said she thinks you should get 5k worth of texts to prove yourself right about what they said to each other.
I think your MC needs some help too.
Anvilhead told you you already know the truth, you won't believe it when it slaps you in the face.
You are in no mood to be messed with? Really?
Well then, get your cat-o-nine-tails and get to flogging yourself, maybe some physical pain will wake you up.

Continue the self flagellation alone. I am out of here.

allforcnm

Im new to this forum, but I am shocked by the comments being sent your way. What works in one case may not work in another, and we should all keep that in mind, share our experiences, have respect for each others opinions and processes. What struck me was the comment that your therapist was incorrect in what she advised you. After I made my first post on SR I was immediately told that my husbands doctors and the family therapist (at the first class rehabilitation center where he is in treatment), are giving out dangerous advice for both his recovery and my mental health. I found those comments to be incredibly bold, and full of ego. I mean why would anyone think they know enough to discredit the professionals after my first post.
I have been following your thread because my husband also had an affair while he was living apart from me and enjoying his drugs. I have only been married 3 years although we have been together longer as a couple and we have an infant son. I know that my husband’s affair involved more than just sex. I know there was an emotional connection between them without a doubt. I know this because I know my husband, and I know how long it went on. If I had the opportunity to look at messages would I ? Probably. I would do it because it would make it all feel more real and sometimes I feel the need to have it right in my face. I would also go into it knowing that it would hurt and I would no doubt have the anger stirred up again.
One thing however that I would keep in mind for myself is that my husband was deep in drugs during his affair and I know his mind, thoughts, feelings were skewed at the time. How much of what I read would be lies he told her to keep her in his bed? Lies to himself to make him feel better about what he was doing? How much of it would he regret? When I think about it like that then I realize he is the only one that knows the truth about his feelings and that relationship. So if I had a window to look into that time and space it would still not give me the complete answer ( I do however see what you are saying . You want to prove he is telling the truth now about what tone their conversations had. I think that is the key point that your therapist is trying to bring out. Its not she expects you to read all 3000 messages but only get enough to confirm or deny his current truthfulness.)
For me, where Im at right now is that I have examined our past together when he was clean, which was the majority of our time, and Ive reached a conclusion about that. And I now look at the present and ask myself if I am willing, and if he is willing to work through all the pain (both of adultery and addiction). I think its going to be one step forward and two steps back at times. I think its complicated by each of us having our own emotional time tables on these issues, and I think feelings of disconnect cant help but that stem from that during this process.
I think it takes patience and a certain commitment to even walk this road, and I commend you both for trying. However, Im so sorry for your pain and I wish you inner peace.

marie1960

Epona,

Please know we are here to support you. So I will just ask this question..........

Do you need to see those transcripts so you can catch him in the one more lie? Is this what you need to see ???, will this empower you to say ,hey I am done, and walk away with a clear conscience????

Epona

Wicked-nothing I said was directed at you, and I do appreciate your story and your input.

Self flagellation? I am desperate for the truth, for clarity,and don't wish to be made a fool of anymore-so I am seeking info re those texts. I'm in enough pain already and don't need to get beaten up here as well, that is all.

LR-thank you again for sharing.

Marie-I need to see it for whatever it is, one way or the other.

allforcnm-yes, that is a risk posting on these forums-all kinds of people w all kinds of opinions. Some have more finesse than others-whatever someone wants to say is fine, I just expect to be "talked to" civilly.

I can't take the anger directed at me for trying my best to deal w the worst thing that's ever happened to me. I'm sure that in my traumatized state, my brain is not workng at it's full potential. When you have a broken heart on top of the trauma-coming to some kind of resolution is not like a mathematical equation, it is chaos. And if coming here is hurting more than helping, my fight or flight instinct kicks in. I am just a human being, after all.

marie1960

Yikes Epona,

Gently saying here, not sure this is clarity, you are seeking. It's almost like a self mutilating obsession. The truth you are searching for will not be found in those text messages, I have no idea what something like that costs, but the money might be better spent on a better qualified therapist.

NO TRUST = NO RELATIONSHIP. It truly is that simple.

To continue to be so consumed with the actions of another, does absolutely nothing for your recovery.

Be well, my friend.

Epona

Marie-I respectfully disagree with your take on me getting the texts. Just b/c I do not agree does not mean I don't appreciate your taking the time.

I do agree w what you said re NO TRUST = NO RELATIONSHIP, hence my need for information that would help me decide if re-building is even an option or is possible.

There is NO trust at this point. He is sleeping in the guest room. I have taken off my wedding ring.

And, I have a problem w the idea that b/c everyone does not agree w the MC that she is not qualified-she has been a MC for many years and has a good reputation in the community. If I can't trust her-who the h*ll can I trust?

wicked

Thank you for that Epona. I did not say it well. I hope you do not open those wounds again. But you do what you have to do to finish it for you.

Beth

Spes

Epona,

I have been very reluctant to join this conversation and, hopefully, I won't regret it.

FWIW, I understand. My first marriage ended because of her affair. We had been together for 24 years.

I took the time last night to read all 250 posts so I could get to know you. That's what this is all about, even after 250 posts no one here really knows you....all we know is our individual experiences with alcohol. That's why we are here, in this forum titled: Friends and Family of Alcoholics.

Epona, I do not believe for a moment that any anger is directed at you personally. Lord knows all of us here knows what it's like for another person to direct their anger at us. Our anger is directed towards the alcohol and what it has done, and is doing, to you.

Whether you stay or leave based on the infidelity is yours alone. That decision is heartbreaking under the best of circumstances. But, when that decision also has it's basis in alcoholism....the emotional issues can almost be unbearable.

I read way back, on page 4 I think, where EnglishGarden describes the term "Gaslighting". I hope you go back and re-read all those earlier posts. I have been in a war zone so I understand PTSD and since you are a Master Social Worker, I suspect you do also. It's just harder to see the forest when you're in the trees.

Epona, there is nothing I can do or say that is going to make your life better; I know that. I post frequently in the step study forum because I know that very few people reply to those threads and just putting my thoughts to words tends to help me heal. My only wish is that you view this place as one of many tools to help you heal from probably the worse thing that has ever happened to you. Please remember that our words reflect the anger that alcohol has done to you....not to you personally.

I truly wish you well.

amy55

I am only going to respond to your first post. Will read the rest later.

I have a friend who has depression. He had told me that he expected a lot from his wife. He knew that in reality, he could not get this. He expected his wife to make up for his childhood. He knew that she couldn't do this, she was only able to live, and love him for today, and that is what she did.

She was never able to live up to his expectations, why? because it was unreasonable.

She could never fill that emptiness that was inside of him.

He did not have affairs, or whatever, but he did keep expecting her to fill his needs, even though he knew that she couldn't.

It didn't matter if he was drinking or not. He wanted her to go back in time and change things. We all know that can't be done.

So, please take this anyway that you may want. It is not your fault. So hey, you didn't live up to his expectations. No one could.

He wanted you to make the world better for him. Well, that's his job, not yours.

You wanted, and did have sex with him again, after all of this. Well I am also guilty as charged. I wanted him to know me, and love me. It didn't work.

The more that I tried to be the person that he wanted, the more I lost myself, and when I lost myself and tried to be the person that he wanted, I lost him also. Because that's not what he wanted !!!!!!!!!!!!

He wanted me to be "me", but he didn't like who I was, because he always expected more.

I can see that I am now getting into "crazy talk", and thats ok.
That is what it is about.

Circles and circles, just going around and around.

The wanting, the feeling, of I didn't just waste the last some many years of my life with someone who never knew, or accepted that I loved him.

The self hatred that he had for himself.

This will never go away without a lot of help

Can you make things better?

Nooooooooooooo, you can't

He refuses to believe that he has probs. He wants and needs to blame you for his problems.

You drove him into the arms of another woman, NO U DID NOT

You didn't give him what he wanted, because no one can do that. You cannot change someones past.

Sorry bout going on and on, was thinking about my life and what I went thru, and hopefully it has some bearing for you.

As always, take what you can, leave the rest

and have to add in, yes, I loved the make up sex, how sick is that? Then he would go and do the same thing anyways. He would disappear for a month or 2 at a time, and he would not understand why I was upset. Thought since we didn't fight during that time, that I should just welcome him in with opened arms.

Dry drunk? think there were more probs then that.

Married for 27 years, separated for 2 1/2, divorced 1 1/2.

If they don't want help, there is nothing you can do to get them help.

And all the times that they are actually nice, well............... it's bc you were the only one that was there for them. But they will drop out of your life without any thought of you whatsoever.

And sorry to go on and on and on.

But that was my life

I am a codie. Just wanted to know that I was loved, just wanted to be with someone who loved me. What I needed to do, was to love myself. That was really hard to do. Still working on that one. (lol)

amy55

I'm going to add in more

sorry but I tend to do this

yes, I am a codie, an also an alcoholic

I still have a lot of work to do on myself
I am trying my hardest to be "me" again.

Afterall, I was trying to be someone else for years and years

I missed out on most of my life

Don't want this to happen to you also

I have friends, lots, and lots of friends

didn't have this when I was married

but then of course, when I was married and lived with him, everyone thought I had the perfect life

I didn't
I was slowly changing into a person that I did not want to be

I couldn't have feelings, couldn't have an opinion, couldn't be anything that I wanted to be, and that was still not enough

When I did leave him, he filed for a divorce, WHY??????????????

Because if we are not living together, and I am not having sex with him (he actually said it a bit crueler, he said if i didn't suk him and *** him then what good was I) He blamed me for the divorce, yea, right. I didn't want to be his little puppet anymore. Finally grew balls of my own


I still am codie, still working on that, but they do say that you get better, in half the time that you were together with someone. So lets see. Was together 27 years, should be better by by 2033, or somewhere around there

Katiekate

Epona, please be sure that what you are looking for is something that won't take you out. Please, the words shared between your husband and his lover may just be too much for you to take.

You are loved and cared for here, don't ever think that the words written are out of anything but concern.

Sometimes it's hard to see.

love to you are you travel through. Katie

Epona

Thank you, Katiekate....actually the not knowing for sure, and possibly commiting to stay while being gaslighted, finding out more later after I think I can trust again (if even possible), devoting more of my life with the nagging doubt or finding out down the road that it was even worse than I thought is what would take me out.

Appreciate your kindness.

Katiekate

So you have made your decision, it's your process, and we will be here to support you. Please don't give up on us, we won't give up on you , I think you might have something to teach us.

xoxoxox